Now that Nullifying Orb exists...

Fisher No Chains·Oct 9, 2017·88 votes·10,267 views

Could you please take a look at Hexdrinker?

I know that MR runes are getting removed and some mages will benefit from that, but I’m kind of tired of Hexdrinker. If your opponent decides to get it early, he’s pretty much impossible to kill for you (AP champion of course) unless: 1) you are Cassiopeia; 2) you are 10 kills ahead and you have guise, sorcs and void; 3) Hexdrinker is on CD.

Now that an ad champ can potentially have TWO magic damage shield, isn’t it time to change hexdrinker? It’s already an overloaded item with a ridiculous cost efficiency on purchase and it should not have a shield (early game that 180 damage mitigation is a lot) on top of MR.

126 Comments

ThilmerOct 9, 201723 votes

You know, Hexdrinker is actually one of the most bullshit ítems in the whole game in terms of balance.

You are and AD champion figthing a mage, and you buy this item 3155 the first time you go to shop and the mage can't kill you until 20 minutes later.

The ítem itself is a hard-counter of a whole champion class; I think that's not balanced.

5050BSOct 9, 201715 votes

And Riot thinks the Stopwatch is the same thing for Mages vs AD...... Shows how disconnected they are from the Immobile mage.

AirKingNeoOct 9, 20172 votes

It's literally a buff to mages and a nerf for assassins.

Sraeg2013Oct 9, 20179 votes

A one time use only item active with zero stats attached to it costing 600 gold is a nerf for assassins.

AirKingNeoOct 9, 20173 votes

and you can get it with a free rune to get 600 free gold effectively that builds into hourglass which you always get

KloqdqOct 10, 20177 votes

Hourglass is still less effective compared to Hexdrinker on it's own because then you can get anything else and be more effective. Ultimately, this rune is only slightly good. Plus you need to go into a weaker rune path, which everyone seems to be forgetting, that comes at a BIG lost of damage.

Sraeg2013Oct 10, 20171 votes

I can't seem to find that Runes Reforged promo page, but can't you put that rune in a secondary slot?

KloqdqOct 10, 20171 votes

You are right that was my bad. Still, you are taking this rune to get this item which has a 1 time use. This thing only kicks in after 6 minutes which means you will have it to stop one ultimate. I am not 100% sure how the whole thing works but still, the main point is you have a trade off for this rune, and the item itself only has a potential value with no known value unlike Hexdrinker.

Sraeg2013Oct 10, 20172 votes

Personally I may occasionally get that rune, but only for it's potential level 6 save.

Zhonya isn't really worth jack, as if you were going to die without the active, you will die with a 99% success rate despite the active anyway.

KloqdqOct 10, 20172 votes

I do think this makes Zhonya's a lot more attractive overall and if you pick say Ziggs and they pick a Zed into you, this may be really good for just trying to stay safe and not get solo'd hard.

Real problem with Hexdrinker is one it combos with the new rune waaaay to hard. Second problem is Hexdrinker offers you too much defensive power along with offensive power. Hexdrinker is basically getting the best of all worlds and that's not good.

Sraeg2013Oct 10, 20173 votes

The rune theoretically decreases the cost of Zhonya, but imo it's still a matter of slot efficiency and the fact you are still wasting over 2k gold on mediocre stats and those you don't actually want to rush.

As for Hexdrinker it shouldn't exist in its current form. It should have a longer cooldown (120 is a minimum), not have MR or not have a shield. Alternatively have a stacking mechanic, so it's not a no-brain rush that guarantees being unkillable the moment you buy it, unless you severely fuck up.

KloqdqOct 10, 20172 votes

Hexdrinker for sure needs some kind of fix. Hell, I remember it was meant to be more of a fighter item but it is still so god damn perfect for assassins and AD mids that it needs work. Ideally, it should scale up better for fighters in some way and be less valuable flat stats for assassins. Maybe just a flat shield that scales with MR, more geared towards being a MR off-shoot of Gage, since Gage is general burst while this is more of an MR/Anti-Mage focused item.

Sraeg2013Oct 10, 20172 votes

You are thinking about the Maw of Malmortius which used to give AD based on user's missing HP which indirectly geared it towards HP stacking.

Hexdrinker is virtually identical to its release version, only the numbers are different.

KloqdqOct 10, 20172 votes

I think that would be probably a lot better in the long run. Items like BC and Gage or far more attractive to Fighters and Juggs now anyways but Hexdrinker and Maw are still lacking behind.

Overlord ForteOct 9, 201711 votes

The best part is if they don't nerf the interaction, it's essentially 2 different shields that auto-proc for free at low HP that also benefit from MR. So the total EHP of the combo is so insanely high it becomes near impossible to solo kill in a burst rotation. Said combo becomes stronger the more MR you stack onto it.

Can I trade out Zhonya's stasis for that?

Fisher No ChainsOct 9, 201717 votes

Hexdrinker is disgustingly overloaded already, we don't need another busted magic shield when AP champs get absolutely nothing in exchange except... stopwatch.

Overlord ForteOct 11, 20172 votes

Pretty much my issue is you can out play Zhonya's but Hexdrinker can only be beaten by out statting it. It just moves the bar for the stat check in a non-interactive or meaningful way. Sure, having a mage dodge abilities with Zhonya's can suck in team fighting ............... if they got Zhonya's off at the right, specific time. Hexdrinker, not only not requiring a thought process, only makes you concerned about enemies who are obscenely fed enough to beat the stat check.

I might not mind nearly as much as I do if Hexdrinker's passive required an active component (so CC can beat it like it does Zhonya's)(Also the user can introduce human error to the equation and potentially misfire their Hexdrinker shield, like Zhonya's).

RiotRiotRepertoirOct 10, 201711 votes

It's definitely something to keep an eye on in the preseason, but I don't think it's something we ought to act on preemptively. I had a pretty similar reaction to Nullifying Orb when it was first introduced, but its effect seems a lot more subdued than I expected (maybe because I was more used to Hexdrinker's effect, I'm not sure). It also competes with some pretty attractive runes in Manaflow Band and Ultimate Hat, so there could often be a difficult decision to be made there as well.

Anyway, agree it's worth thinking about, and we may have to rethink the values on one or the other (or how the two specifically interact/combine to avoid abuse cases).

xJLx MCHammerOct 11, 20175 votes

{quoted}

It's definitely something to keep an eye on in the preseason, but I don't think it's something we ought to act on preemptively. I had a pretty similar reaction to Nullifying Orb when it was first introduced, but its effect seems a lot more subdued than I expected (maybe because I was more used to Hexdrinker's effect, I'm not sure). It also competes with some pretty attractive runes in Manaflow Band and Ultimate Hat, so there could often be a difficult decision to be made there as well.

Anyway, agree it's worth thinking about, and we may have to rethink the values on one or the other (or how the two specifically interact/combine to avoid abuse cases).

Why not give AP itemization something equivalent to Hex.

DarkRitualOct 11, 20173 votes

Psssh, as if Riot would let mages have options. Crazy talk there.

RiotRiotRepertoirOct 11, 20173 votes

It's interesting you suggest that. I was going to ask everyone whether they would prefer Seeker's be more like Hexdrinker or Hexdrinker more like Seeker's, but I didn't want to derail.

La BelloOct 11, 20175 votes

I want Hexdrinker to be more like seekers. I feel like trying to keep track of when Hex passive is up or down is too much think space to occupy.

Would rather have Hex be a sorta soft counter to magic damage that amps up over the next couple waves.

also gonna cross refrence to this post https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/0ss2A9iv-ap-itemization-is-so-unsatisfying?comment=000000020005

SiytherOct 11, 20174 votes

i can tell u that it really sucks as a mage trying to lane agaisnt the likes of a zed or talon cause they have so many options to flat out negate your damage. They buy mr boots hexdrinker etc. you cant touch them anymore but dispite that they have gone with a defensive build start they still do absurb amounts of damage. Meanwhile for the mage your only choice is to try to finish zonya's fast as possible. It feels really bad . Mage itemization is not very good when compared to ad itemization.

Automated RivenOct 11, 20172 votes

I would rather hexdrinker be more like seekers. They should be forced to itemize into the full item to get the effect, same as mages.

SkyroarOct 11, 20174 votes

{quoted}

It's interesting you suggest that. I was going to ask everyone whether they would prefer Seeker's be more like Hexdrinker or Hexdrinker more like Seeker's, but I didn't want to derail.

Seeker is not a good item. It's also not a very exciting one. While Hexdrinker might be a bit too strong for what it does, at least its shield gives it a clear purpose. Seeker has no shield, nor any other means to prevent all-ins, while its scaling stats mechanic does nothing to aid you against the main AD threats.

Even the upgraded item is a bit more niche. Some mages love zhonya's, while some don't. Not everyone needs or wants the stasis effect, so paying a lot of gold for an item with bad stats because there's no better solution feels bad. In contrast, Maw is a more generalist item, and there's always QSS/ scimitar as an alternative.

But then again, AP items are so rudimentary and outdated compared to AD items. The lack of diversity is something that is felt everywhere. Void Staff vs 3 scaling Arm Pen items. Morello vs. 2-3 lethality items or 3-4 critical items to build from. Zhonya and Banshee's vs. 4-5 AD items with AR or MR.

MuzétOct 11, 20173 votes

The three big mid Hexdrinker users - since the real issue is how powerful it is by rushing it against a mage - that come to my mind are Zed, Talon and Yasuo. Yasuo don't profit from Manaflow Band nor Ultimate Hate since he doesn't have ressources for his spell "except" cd. And his ultimate got a cooldown short now. Zed don't make a use of Manaflow early on. - But late game it can be needed. He might use Ultimate Hat to reduce his ult cd even more. And I never saw a Talon ran out of mana that easily. From my point of view, Nullyfying orb might compete with Ultimate Hat.

My question is why isn't it adaptative like most - if not all - runes? Why did you choose to take the anti-magic route? Even Press the Attack gave AP on one iteration. Why not Iteration can pop a Magical or Physical shield according to damage received?

RiotRiotRepertoirOct 11, 20173 votes

My question is why isn't it adaptative like most - if not all - runes? Why did you choose to take the anti-magic route? Even Press the Attack gave AP on one iteration. Why not Iteration can pop a Magical or Physical shield according to damage received?

Don't have a satisfying answer for you on that unfortunately. I'm not a primary designer on Runes Reforged, so I don't think I'd give all the right details around that particular decision.

NineTailedMysticOct 11, 20174 votes

I don't think the champions we're primarily concerned about (Yasuo, Zed, Talon) care about Manaflow Band, and even then it's a real maybe on competition with Ultimate Hat. I just don't see why they wouldn't take Null Orb in an AP match up, it's just so absurd in the MU. Even I'll be taking it in hard AP match ups as an AP.

RiotRiotRepertoirOct 11, 20175 votes

That's a decent point. One thing to consider is whether it's worth splashing into Sorcery for Manaflow Band for these guys. Really depends on tuning I guess.

DuskDaUmbreonOct 9, 201710 votes

If your opponent decides to get it early, he’s pretty much impossible to kill for you unless: [...] 3) Hexdrinker is on CD.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this how it is for every relevant shield? This is no different than any other passive shield on a cooldown. Effectively, it's the same as summoner 21 .

I hate the effectiveness of Hexdrinker unto itself, too (no item should be almost as good as its upgrade. I'm just as annoyed about Bramble Vest being able to be sat on as I am about Hexdrinker being able to be sat on), but let's be fair: That shield is something that you should be able to play around. It has a 90s cooldown, so plan around it. Either wait until you can kill them through the shield, or make the shield kick in, wait for it to fade out, then kill them.

Hexdrinker and Maw of Mamorticus definitely need to be brought back into line of each other, so that people don't just sit on Hexdrinker for half the game (just like Bramble Vest and Thornmail), but that's not what you're complaining about.

Fisher No ChainsOct 9, 201715 votes

Barrier has a super long cd compared to hexdrinker and gives nothing but a shield.

Hexdrinker gives every possible useful stat for an AD champion and negates whole ultimates every 90s.

They removed Negatron from Banshee so people would not sit on it for 20 minutes, they should do the same with Hexdrinker, like lowering the shield value or its stats.

ArakadiaOct 9, 20174 votes

What if they flat out removed Hexdrinker's shield (potentially compensating idk) so that you couldn't rush it without a trade off? Once you bought Maw you'd get the shield, but you'd have to invest a lot more.

DKM BismarckOct 10, 20175 votes

If they did that, the MR on Hexdrinker, or the AD, would have to go up

By an entire metric fucktonne.

SweedishGunnerOct 10, 20177 votes

Not really. They could just make Hexdrinker analogous to Seekers.

BlakiepugOct 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this how it is for every relevant shield? This is no different than any other passive shield on a cooldown. Effectively, it's the same as .

I hate the effectiveness of Hexdrinker unto itself, too (no item should be almost as good as its upgrade. I'm just as annoyed about Bramble Vest being able to be sat on as I am about Hexdrinker being able to be sat on), but let's be fair: That shield is something that you should be able to play around. It has a 90s cooldown, so plan around it. Either wait until you can kill them through the shield, or make the shield kick in, wait for it to fade out, then kill them.

Hexdrinker and Maw of Mamorticus definitely need to be brought back into line of each other, so that people don't just sit on Hexdrinker for half the game (just like Bramble Vest and Thornmail), but that's not what you're complaining about.

The problem is how strong Hexdrinker's shield is for its low cost and the fact that it gives offensive stats on top of this.

DuskDaUmbreonOct 10, 20172 votes

And I'm annoyed by this. I have no problem with Hexdrinker unto itself. I'm just annoyed that it's strong enough relative to Maw to be sat on for 20+ minutes.

bbQsauçeOct 9, 20173 votes

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Fisher No ChainsOct 9, 201739 votes

You know right that Stopwatch costs 600 gold and can be used just ONCE?

So, it's 600 gold wasted for a one-time active and no stats, definitely a trade off.

Done25Oct 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You know right that Stopwatch costs 600 gold and can be used just ONCE?

So, it's 600 gold wasted for a one-time active and no stats, definitely a trade off.

It's not wasted if it negates a lv 6 ult.

Fisher No ChainsOct 9, 20177 votes

But 1300 gold for hexdrinker isn't wasted either since it gives a SCALING shield that can proc multiple times during a game with an average CD.

5050BSOct 9, 201712 votes

It also activates BY ITS SELF AND you can keep moving and attacking while its is active.

bbQsauçeOct 9, 20171 votes

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Fisher No ChainsOct 9, 201723 votes

But you still "waste" 600 gold and a slot for something that doesn't give anything except a 2.5s stasis. Hexdrinker has been like this for years and has always been broken vs all-in AP assassins and mages.

Also, mages lose A LOT if they build Zhonyas first. Assassins don't lose much if they get hexdrinker.

bbQsauçeOct 9, 20173 votes

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Sraeg2013Oct 9, 201714 votes

Hexdrinker allows you to actively fight while tanking damage, doesn't anyhow restrict mobility, scales with itself and provides damage bonus.

Stasis prevents you from taking ANY action, doesn't scale with anything and is grossly overpriced.

5050BSOct 9, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=bbQ s,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6uf843dj,comment-id=00010000000100000000,timestamp=2017-10-09T22:25:07.518+0000)

A 2.5s stasis is like an extra defensive ability. Versus burst champions that rely on snowballing early is insane in my opinion, since you reduce the chances of him snowballing very hard. Yes, hexdrinker is good, but also seekers is good, it's like 112% gold efficient at full stacks.

Also AD champs lose as much for building MR just like AP champs lose for building armor, magic resist is just a little bit cheaper.

What if they made a item for mages that was a lesser form of fully stacked item 3003 that activated when you were at 30% hps AND had Armor on it?

What would you think?

BlitzidiousOct 10, 20174 votes

Honestly, I think that would be pretty cool.

ThilmerOct 9, 201716 votes

{quoted}

You know right that Stopwatch costs 600 gold and can be used just ONCE?

So, it's 600 gold wasted for a one-time active and no stats, definitely a trade off.

Zhonya is still going to have a bad building path, while Guardian Angel building path gets better. But I'm not even surprised: Riot loves ADCs, you know.

TwinkieProOct 10, 20173 votes

{quoted}

You know right that Stopwatch costs 600 gold and can be used just ONCE?

So, it's 600 gold wasted for a one-time active and no stats, definitely a trade off.

I'd love to see stopwatch be a weaker Zhonyas without stats and less a one time use. That's a huge gold sink to prevent a 300+ drop for your opponent. You actually hurt your teams gold lead by using it rather than dying in most cases.