[Concept] Zoe rework - Spell Thief

Bârd··2 votes·467 views

Preface

There are two conflicting parts to Zoe.

The first is a complex trickster, zipping around the battlefield stealing spells and zapping people. This is represented by her Passive, W, and R. When a Zoe kills me using this side of her kit, I feel genuinely outplayed. When I kill somebody using this side of her kit, it feels amazing.

The second is the nightmare artillery pick artist we all know and hate. Nid v2.0. While I believe that this version of Zoe has a lot counterplay (even on release), it's annoying as hell and isn't great design. If she can one shot somebody with her E-Q combo, she feels like cancer. If she can't, she's pretty much worthless. Just as importantly, you don't feel "outplayed" when Zoe lands a potshot and takes half your HP. You just feel "oh, here we go again".

I think the best way to bring out Zoe's potential is to focus on Spell Thief, which I'll move to her ultimate. Paddle Star and Sleepy Trouble Bubble will still exist, but in an altered form, and Portal Jump will simply be put onto a basic ability. It never really felt like an ult anyhow. Her basic abilities in this version are meant to be relatively underpowered and tricky to use, but still very versatile.

I'm aware she's new, but she has a lot of very old balance problems.

Anyhow, let's jump into it. -_-

Stat Changes Base Attack Speed: 0.625 >> 0.635

A big part of this Zoe is that I want her to be relying on her passive more. With her current sub-par attack speed, that would be extremely clunky.

Passive: More Sparkles!!! After casting an ability, Zoe's next basic attack within 5 seconds deals 12-135 (+.325 AP) bonus magic damage and heal her for half that amount if she strikes a champion or large/epic monster.

If I want her to rely on her passive more, Zoe will be fighting for a considerably longer duration. This will keep her alive slightly longer.

Q: Paddle Star 8/7.5/7/6.5/6 second CD, 55 mana Zoe hits a star in a target direction, traveling 975 units. If the star strikes terrain, it will ricochet and reset its range. When the star strikes an enemy it will deal 50/70/90/110/130 (+.4 AP) magic damage to all enemies within 275 units, with the initial target taking 25% bonus damage per ricochet, capping at a 50/75/100/125/150% increase in damage. The star fizzles on its own after 10 bounces. Each time the star ricochets, it's projectile speed increases by 15%.

Ricochet behavior emulates a beam of light bouncing off of a mirror. Can you still potentially chunk fools with this spell? Yes, the maximum damage is 325 (+1.0 AP). Will this happen occasionally? Yes, but this spell is so chaotic that you'll get chunked out by it much less often than by the current Paddle Star. While the old paddle star is all about sniping people you've already immobilized, this one is all about the trick shots. Even if they're asleep, you stand a good chance of missing. This is inspired by how kids like throwing rubber bouncy balls in enclosed spaces just to see what happens, and something usually ends up breaking eventually. The difference is that this ball is made of hot plasma and is not slowing down.

I debated not putting a bounce cap, and letting godlike trickshotters snipe globally, but I feel like that would just turn the entire jungle into a pinball machine of death.

W: Portal Jump 15/13/11/9/7 second CD, 50 mana Zoe blinks to a target location (575 range), then blinks back one second later.

It's a basic ability now.

E: Sleepy Trouble Bubble 16/15/14/13/12 second CD, 80 mana Zoe kicks a bubble of Twilight energy in a target direction (975 range). The first enemy struck is dealt 50/100/150/200/250 (+.5 AP) magic damage made Drowsy for 2.2 seconds, applying a slow that increases to 10/20/30/40/50% over the duration. After this, the enemy falls asleep for 2 seconds. Taking damage will wake them up, and a rude awakening causes them to lose 15 magic resistance for 8 seconds. If the bubble does not directly strike anything, it will leave a trap for 2 seconds at its max range.

The initial hit does more damage at later ranks, but the overall damage is down since the hit that wakes the target up is no longer matched by this spell. Still good for picks, and it can line up a Paddle Star ricochet great. The base range has been increased to make up for the lower trap duration and removal of the infinite wall-phase.

R: Spell Thief 0.5 second CD, Variable Cost passive: Enemy champions who use summoner spells, certain active items, or certain abilities in vision of Zoe (within 2000 range) will drop shards of those actives on the ground. Zoe can pick up these shards to temporarily replace Spell Thief with one use of that spell. Shards last 15 seconds on the ground and 30 seconds on Zoe's hotbar. If a shard from a champion is already on the ground they will not drop extra shards until that shard either despawns or is picked up, and the same champion cannot drop another shard for 15/10/5 seconds. Activating a summoner spell, active item or Spell Thief will grant Zoe 30/50/70% movement speed for 2/3/4 seconds and summon three orbs that seek enemy champions, sending out one per second, each dealing 25/55/85 (+.25 AP) magic damage. active: Consume your currently held spell shard to cast that spell. If it would deal physical damage, it is changed to magic. The cost of Spell Thief is equal to the original cost of the spell. Spells with no cost will cost 60 mana. Stolen basic champion abilities are at rank 1/3/5, and stolen ultimate abilities are at rank 1/2/3. For scalings, the greater damage value is chosen between Zoe and the original owner.

All summoner spells can be dropped, and the list of items that can be dropped is the same. Here follows the complete list of champion abilities that can be stolen by Zoe.

Something worth noting is that if you steal a tank's initiation ult (say, unstoppable force), you can portal jump in, use that ult, and portal jump will still take you back. Same way it works if you flash during the interval on live, but flashy and isn't in a fail montage.

Aatrox Q E Ahri E Akali W Alistar Q W Amumu Q R Anivia Q W Annie W Ashe E R AurelionSol Q R Azir P R Bard Q E R Blitzcrank Q Brand R Braum E R Caitlyn E Camille W Cassiopeia W R Chogath Q W Corki W (normal and package) Darius E Diana W E DrMundo Q Draven E R Ekko W Elise human W, human E Evelynn W R Ezreal E R Fiddlesticks E R Fiora W Fizz E R Galio Q Gangplank W R Garen E R Gnar E R Gragas E R Graves W Hecarim W R Heimerdinger W E RQ RW RE Illaoi E Irelia E R (this is outdated in, like, two weeks, but w/e) Ivern Q E Janna Q JarvanIV R Jax E Jayce (melee) E (ranged) E Jhin W R Jinx E R Kaisa W R Kalista Q W Karma RQ RW RE Karthus R Kassadin E R Katarina R Kayle W Kayn W E Kennen E R Khazix W E R Kindred R Kled E KogMaw Q E R Leblanc W E RW RE LeeSin W (no reactivation) Leona E Lissandra W E Lucian E Lulu Q W Lux Q R Malphite R Malzahar Q Maokai R MasterYi W MissFortune E R Mordekaiser W Morgana Q E Nami Q R Nasus W E Nautilus Q Nidalee human Q cougar W Nocturne W Nunu R Olaf Q Orianna W (always centered on you) Ornn R Pantheon W R Poppy W R Quinn E Rakan E R Rammus E RekSai burrowed Q Renekton E Rengar W E Riven E Rumble W R Ryze W R Sejuani R Shaco Q Shen E Shyvana W E Singed W E Sion Q E Sivir E R Skarner E Sona W R Soraka E R Swain E Syndra E (Can manipulate the spheres of the original Syndra) TahmKench R Taliyah E R Talon E Taric E Teemo Q W Thresh Q W Tristana W R Trundle E Tryndamere W E TwistedFate W Twitch W Udyr Q W E R (Only the on-cast effect. You do not get to steal Bear stance and stun on-hit the entire game) Urgot R Varus R Vayne E Veigar W E Velkoz E R Vi Q Viktor Q W Vladimir W Volibear E Warwick E MonkeyKing W (drops when decoy ends) Xayah W Xerath W E XinZhao W R Yasuo W Yorick W E Zac Q Zed W (Zoe shadow clone does not replicate abilities, she can only swap to it) Ziggs W E Zilean E Zoe Any stolen spell they use. Zyra E R

To differentiate between spells Zoe has stolen and the originals, visuals on these spells will be a sparkly pink and the SFX will be made distinctly cheerful (even for the spookier champions).

15 Comments

Tèrminus2 votes

I don't even want to imagine how many bugs this would cause if Riot tried to implement it. It would probably put release Azir or current Mordekaiser to shame.

chipndip12 votes

The premise of this thread: I feel genuinely outplayed by an enhanced auto, an auto-targeted spell with very unreliable conditions to even use, and a non-damaging ult. I don't feel outplayed when I get hit by line skill shots that can miss, one of which being cc I can cleanse or spell shield. Take me seriously.

Teridax681 votes

While I have some quibbles on the specifics of this concept (I feel copying basic abilities might be a lot more difficult in practice than on paper, for example), one thing I completely agree with is that Zoe's Spell Thief makes much more sense as her ult, and Portal Jump is, for all intents and purposes, a basic ability. Switching the two would eliminate at least some degree of awkwardness to her current setup, and would allow her to execute her core combo much sooner while also preventing her from getting those level 1 Redemptions. I very much like the core idea behind this proposal.

Malix Farwin1 votes

{quoted}

While I have some quibbles on the specifics of this concept (I feel copying basic abilities might be a lot more difficult in practice than on paper, for example), one thing I completely agree with is that Zoe's Spell Thief makes much more sense as her ult, and Portal Jump is, for all intents and purposes, a basic ability. Switching the two would eliminate at least some degree of awkwardness to her current setup, and would allow her to execute her core combo much sooner while also preventing her from getting those level 1 Redemptions. I very much like the core idea behind this proposal.

The effect her ultimate has on her kit is actually quite massive and her W is a bit too RNG to be a good ultimate as well as the fect that sometimes you get get useless stuff.

Aside from that her kit atm is functioning just fine, she does well and not oppressive like she once were. Theres currently no reason to rework her, especially when there are other champions who are muuuuuuuuuuccccchhhhh more in need of reworks.

Bârd2 votes

All RNG has been removed in this version of the spell.

There are no more "random bubbles".

Malix Farwin1 votes

{quoted}

All RNG has been removed in this version of the spell.

There are no more "random bubbles".

Doesn't really address my original point. Why does she need a rework? I mean they could just as easily give this sort of thing to a new champion and better design a kit around that.

Bârd2 votes

Because half of her current design is toxic.

The Bubble>Star>Kill play pattern is linear, it's binary, and it's frustrating to play against. If she can instakill, she's useful and frustrating to play against. If she can't, she's just a worse option than other artillery/burst/assassin champs. Even if it's balanced, it's one of the most irritating play patterns in the game.

Meanwhile, the play pattern Spell Thief encourages is great. It's fun, it's dynamic, and you actually feel outplayed when it kills you.

Spell Thief is, without a doubt, the best designed ability in her kit, yet the big focus of her kit is that toxic-ass bubble-star combo?

You can't make a new spell thief champion, since it's just overlap far too much with Zoe. If you wanted to do that, you'd have to take the mechanic off of Zoe, which would just be doubling down on a bad design.

She needed another month in development to build a kit on their best idea for Zoe, instead of mashing it together with their worst.

Malix Farwin1 votes

{quoted}

Because half of her current design is toxic.

The Bubble>Star>Kill play pattern is linear, it's binary, and it's frustrating to play against. If she can instakill, she's useful and frustrating to play against. If she can't, she's just a worse option than other artillery/burst/assassin champs. Even if it's balanced, it's one of the most irritating play patterns in the game.

Meanwhile, the play pattern Spell Thief encourages is great. It's fun, it's dynamic, and you actually feel outplayed when it kills you.

Spell Thief is, without a doubt, the best designed ability in her kit, yet the big focus of her kit is that toxic-ass bubble-star combo?

You can't make a new spell thief champion, since it's just overlap far too much with Zoe. If you wanted to do that, you'd have to take the mechanic off of Zoe, which would just be doubling down on a bad design.

She needed another month in development to build a kit on their best idea for Zoe, instead of mashing it together with their worst.

Its called being a burst mage, that means you believe all burst mages are Toxic

Every burst mage in the game has the same kill potential and a lot of them have an easier time doing it.

Her Design is fine and you clearly do not know how to design anything, you literally suggested "fixing"(aint broke) her design by adding a more toxic(by your own logic) design and do not even realize it.

I mean almost all the spells you have her "steal" are either useless because they do not have the kit to support it or actually make her kit clunky.

Bârd2 votes

I don't think all Burst Mages are toxic don't put words in my mouth.

Syndra, Veigar, Leblanc, Annie, Lux, Viktor, every other burst mage in the game is better designed because they have things they do other than oneshot.

If Syndra can't oneshot that's fine because her sustained damage and kiting are good. If Veigar can't oneshot that's fine because he just disrupts the battlefield by existing. If Leblanc can't oneshot late game that's fine because she can do it so much in the mid game that she had her window. If Annie can't oneshot that's fine because she has initiation. If Lux can't oneshot that's fine because her team utility is high and her CD's are low. If Viktor can't oneshot that's fine because he can work as a semi-bruiser or wombo champ.

Oh, and all of those champions have better waveclear than Zoe.

They can be viable even if they can't burst people 100-0.

If Zoe can't oneshot, the only thing that might make her a better pick than those champions is her range, but that's not nearly enough.

Malix Farwin1 votes

{quoted}

I don't think all Burst Mages are toxic don't put words in my mouth.

Syndra, Veigar, Leblanc, Annie, Lux, Viktor, every other burst mage in the game is better designed because they have things they do other than oneshot.

If Syndra can't oneshot that's fine because her sustained damage and kiting are good. If Veigar can't oneshot that's fine because he just disrupts the battlefield by existing. If Leblanc can't oneshot late game that's fine because she can do it so much in the mid game that she had her window. If Annie can't oneshot that's fine because she has initiation. If Lux can't oneshot that's fine because her team utility is high and her CD's are low. If Viktor can't oneshot that's fine because he can work as a semi-bruiser or wombo champ.

Oh, and all of those champions have better waveclear than Zoe.

They can be viable even if they can't burst people 100-0.

If Zoe can't oneshot, the only thing that might make her a better pick than those champions is her range, but that's not nearly enough.

If Zoe can't oneshot she can support her team with her W and E as well as vision checking with R....

Oh and Annie's wave clear is actually poor till she gets AP(nearly every mid can shove her) and Zoe's wave clear isnt that bad once you finish your first item. Veigar and Lux run dry quickly if they spend to much wave clearing. Again recommend actually playing her. Again not only does your recommended changes not change what you perceive is the issue with her but make them worse.

Teridax682 votes

Considering how frequently you have personally played Zoe in the last few days, it is no surprise you would have such an opinion, but Zoe's lackluster performance overall, coupled a great deal of lingering dysfunctionality, has rendered her quite unpopular overall, as shown by her low pick rate. She is perhaps not as egregious as she was on release, but she still has a lot of broken mechanics in her kit (and broken as in badly designed, not necessarily OP). Moreover, the fact that other champions are also in need of reworks does not invalidate the fact that Zoe needs one too, and I agree with Bârd's analysis that she has a lot of conflicting themes and mechanics in her current gameplay.

As specified already, the proposed Spell Thief no longer relies on RNG, but even if it did, the very fact that it would produce very high moments of power at irregular, though altogether infrequent intervals would make it especially well-suited as an ultimate. If nothing else, it's a better fit for her ultimate slot than her W, which is overall weaker in power than an ability like LeBlanc's W. Moreover, whereas her current ult has no major impact on her laning, her W has a massive influence, and can even ruin other people's lanes if she gets a long-ranged spell. This is why Teleport had to be special-cased out of her spell bubbles, for example, and in general it makes no sense for her to access powerful item effects and extra summoner spells at such an early stage in every match. While your appreciation of Zoe is valid in itself, that appreciation isn't universal, and both statistics and analysis suggest she isn't at all in a good spot. Even if a full rework may take more time, at least some smaller-scale changes could already improve her significantly.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

{quoted}

Considering how frequently you have personally played Zoe in the last few days, it is no surprise you would have such an opinion, but Zoe's lackluster performance overall, coupled a great deal of lingering dysfunctionality, has rendered her quite unpopular overall, as shown by her low pick rate. She is perhaps not as egregious as she was on release, but she still has a lot of broken mechanics in her kit (and broken as in badly designed, not necessarily OP). Moreover, the fact that other champions are also in need of reworks does not invalidate the fact that Zoe needs one too, and I agree with Bârd's analysis that she has a lot of conflicting themes and mechanics in her current gameplay.

As specified already, the proposed Spell Thief no longer relies on RNG, but even if it did, the very fact that it would produce very high moments of power at irregular, though altogether infrequent intervals would make it especially well-suited as an ultimate. If nothing else, it's a better fit for her ultimate slot than her W, which is overall weaker in power than an ability like LeBlanc's W. Moreover, whereas her current ult has no major impact on her laning, her W has a massive influence, and can even ruin other people's lanes if she gets a long-ranged spell. This is why Teleport had to be special-cased out of her spell bubbles, for example, and in general it makes no sense for her to access powerful item effects and extra summoner spells at such an early stage in every match. While your appreciation of Zoe is valid in itself, that appreciation isn't universal, and both statistics and analysis suggest she isn't at all in a good spot. Even if a full rework may take more time, at least some smaller-scale changes could already improve her significantly.

She will get a rework when she actually needs one ans when the many other champions who are in even bigger needs of one get theirs. Riot isn't going to do significant amount of work on her unless it's absolutely necessary which currently it isn't

Malix Farwin1 votes

{quoted}

Considering how frequently you have personally played Zoe in the last few days, it is no surprise you would have such an opinion, but Zoe's lackluster performance overall, coupled a great deal of lingering dysfunctionality, has rendered her quite unpopular overall, as shown by her low pick rate. She is perhaps not as egregious as she was on release, but she still has a lot of broken mechanics in her kit (and broken as in badly designed, not necessarily OP). Moreover, the fact that other champions are also in need of reworks does not invalidate the fact that Zoe needs one too, and I agree with Bârd's analysis that she has a lot of conflicting themes and mechanics in her current gameplay.

As specified already, the proposed Spell Thief no longer relies on RNG, but even if it did, the very fact that it would produce very high moments of power at irregular, though altogether infrequent intervals would make it especially well-suited as an ultimate. If nothing else, it's a better fit for her ultimate slot than her W, which is overall weaker in power than an ability like LeBlanc's W. Moreover, whereas her current ult has no major impact on her laning, her W has a massive influence, and can even ruin other people's lanes if she gets a long-ranged spell. This is why Teleport had to be special-cased out of her spell bubbles, for example, and in general it makes no sense for her to access powerful item effects and extra summoner spells at such an early stage in every match. While your appreciation of Zoe is valid in itself, that appreciation isn't universal, and both statistics and analysis suggest she isn't at all in a good spot. Even if a full rework may take more time, at least some smaller-scale changes could already improve her significantly.

Pick rate does not mean she has broken mechanics and yes i do play her a lot and she is fine. If you want to use that as evidence there are about 47 champions who are older than her with a lower pick rate and thats only in the last month but when you break it down that is during when she was weak. Post buff though her pick rate is 5.0% with a 13% ban rate which is solid and good. It seems the people that spout this nonsense are either people who do not play her that much or people who want her to be something they like which news flash you aren't going to like every champion in the game and riot shouldn't change them to suit your style. She is fine. I mean the fact that you said her Ultimate has no major impact on her laning tells me that you prolly shouldn't be talking about her in the first place.

Teridax681 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6o9TEMAy,comment-id=0000000000010001,timestamp=2018-03-19T04:35:18.247+0000)

Pick rate does not mean she has broken mechanics.

It doesn't, but what it does say is that she's unpopular. You can't really pick a red herring and use it as proof of something, simply because it doesn't prove another thing.

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6o9TEMAy,comment-id=0000000000010001,timestamp=2018-03-19T04:35:18.247+0000)

If you want to use that as evidence there are about 47 champions who are older than her with a lower pick rate

That actually proves my point, because if Zoe has such a low pick rate despite being so relatively recent, that is a clear sign that she has major issues preventing her from becoming more popular. This is usually the point in a champion's release where they enjoy a good amount of popularity, but that simply isn't the case for Zoe. Why do you think that is?

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6o9TEMAy,comment-id=0000000000010001,timestamp=2018-03-19T04:35:18.247+0000)

Post buff though her pick rate is 5.0% with a 13% ban rate which is solid and good.

It is neither. 5% pick rate is below average, and 13% ban rate is abnormally high. This too is a pretty clear sign that there is a problem, because in spite of her low popularity, she is still pretty unpopular to play against. The fact that there are still complaints levied against her is further evidence of this, even if you do not personally care to listen to them.

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6o9TEMAy,comment-id=0000000000010001,timestamp=2018-03-19T04:35:18.247+0000)

It seems the people that spout this nonsense are either people who do not play her that much or people who want her to be something they like which news flash you aren't going to like every champion in the game and riot shouldn't change them to suit your style.

It's not about bending her to suit a playstyle, so much as changing her so that she feels less bad to play against (hence her current high ban rate), as well as less dysfunctional overall. Switching two of her abilities around, for example, isn't really about turning her into another champion, so much as switching portions of her power so that she spikes in a more appropriate manner.

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6o9TEMAy,comment-id=0000000000010001,timestamp=2018-03-19T04:35:18.247+0000)

I mean the fact that you said her Ultimate has no major impact on her laning tells me that you prolly shouldn't be talking about her in the first place.

Oh? In which case, please do enlighten me: what kind of power spike does Portal Jump bring to Zoe's laning? How does it compare to Spell Thief? How does it compare to a standard ultimate?

Fullmetallic1 votes

Hell if i know why this is downvoted this is a great concept! needs work tho!

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