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Having had the 4.21 Cassiopeia experience. Might as well give my thoughts too.

5G8Nri0B54··36 votes·6,471 views

How should I put this...remember this thread and this thread?

The games went about exactly as I expected. I did well in some games. Didn't do so hot in other games. DID NOT PARTICULARLY ENJOY ANY OF THE MATCHES AT ALL (not even the ones I won...it had nothing to do with skill and everything to do with Katarina being an epic idiot).

I will split this thread up between BALANCE and FEELS because the two are actually quite distinct, and quite worrying too because there is nothing worse than the combination Cassiopeia is.

!!B A L A N C E!! In general, any games where I'm up against a mobile team with the likes of Vi, LeBlanc, and WW did not go all too well I don't think I need to elaborate why. Although Vi wasn't too much of a problem in a stand off, champions like Kat and LB makes a mockery of Cass's Passive unless it's the Kat from my recent ("durrr let's spam laugh so Cass can land an easy Q")

  • She is less terrible early-mid game as expected...I mean, she's still massively weak early game, but you mildly flattened her curve a bit. Does this solve the problem of her being a Hyper-Carry? No. SHE'S STILL A HYPER-CARRY through and through and she comes with a Hyper-Carry curve that hyper-carries not named Tristana and Ryze are subjected to. This is exactly as I expected, I knew your update is still trying to keep her as a hyper-carry as you've said it yourself. But just as I've told you often enough, she was never a hyper-carry pre-rework and her design does not suit that of a hyper-carry.

  • There is zero fallback pattern if your opponent happens to get the upper hand in anyway at all. I can't wave clear, and NOTHING is more hilariously inept than a short ranged champion who falls behind because there's little you can do about it. When you go up against something like say...an Assassin, a common and often effective means of dealing with them is to shove the lane hard, stay the **** out of their kill range and overall just survive. This is a great thing about most AP mids, too bad not only does Cassiopeia NOT have the means to achieve this, she is forced to land her skillshots on some twitchy ginger who have the capability to clear the waves with relative ease and still be able to blink away with ease. With the OLD that's annoying and it's still not a match-up I'd do all too great with. But atleast I know I can farm up and not have to worry about some 500-stack chore.

  • This is probably on me, but I'm always oom after killing 1-2 enemy champions...unless I'm Swain this has never happened to me before, and even with Swain this doesn't happen all too often

  • E-managing...it wasn't enjoyable one-bit. Ginga didn't enjoy mashing the E-button and looking for opportunity to optimally mash the E-button?! Call the press! But anyways, there has been an issue with Cassiopeia's E that's always been around ever since pre-rework, your rework making her E compose of 98% of her entire kit isn't helping one bit. Basically the issue is, the moment you fib your E by accidentally throwing a torso-sized fang at an un-poisoned target, you're fucked. Most champions often have fallback options if their main thing is screwed up. Yeah, even Anivia where ALL her abilities are satisfying and powerful rather than just an E.

"Then just don't E an un-poisoned target you stupid NOOB!" - You see, here's the thing about this game. Teamfights can get real messy real fast. Or not just teamfights, any fight with multiple units moving around, not everyone will get poisoned. Your motivation then of course is to aim for those you actually did poison. Problem? IF A POISONED TARGET IS NEAR AN UN-POISONED TARGET, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE A GOOD TIME. (especially if they happen to OVERLAP)

  • Maybe it's because I've only ever played with a twitchy ginger (twice), a slippery fish boy, an illusionist, and a ninja...but I never really had much of an opportunity to machine gun my target when I poison them. They always slip far out of range when I do land my Q. The exception being the idiot Katarina who I swear is just trying to feed me for the lulz

Pay Attention now, because this is a big one...

  • EVERY SINGLE GAME either
  1. Ended before I reached 500 stacks or
  2. Immediately ended the very second I reach 500 stacks. How rewarding.
  • She doesn't have ANY outside of her very conditional R. She is 100% a "Straight AP Scaling", what I mean by that is that nothing about her really scales on it's own ala a source of % damage (Brand is a random example) or the ability to offer some form of utility that grows more valuable as the game goes on (e.g - Orianna will ALWAYS be a force to be reckoned with even if behind). She is 100% damage and nothing else. This isn't too big a problem in most cases, but if you're a gosh damn hyper-carry, you better damn well hope you never EVER fall behind in any way at all. More importantly.............skip to FEELS for why this is an issue

So after all that.......is she viable? Eh, depends on the match-up. She's really finnicky and there's only a few niche that she can fit into unlike the old "TOSS YOUR POISON AND MELT FACE!"-Cassiopeia who used her E when she can, but is perfectly content inflicting mass AoE on her opponent if they are out of range.

When she gets ahead, she's a monster. If she has trouble, she has lots of trouble. In the hands of a better player, she's probably downright OP. However...MY DISDAIN FOR THIS REWORK HAS MORE TO DO ABOUT PLAY-STYLE AND THEMATIC CONSISTENCY THAN IT HAS ABOUT VIABILITY. Balancing is "easy" relatively speaking. ANY champion can easily be viable.

In fact, being OP may be an incredibly BAD thing, why? Because many people have difficulty differentiating VIABLE/OP with FUN or THEMATIC CONSISTENCY.

!!F E E L S!!

Everything I hate about this rework can be summed up in THIS THREAD and THIS THREAD thread?

However. As playing and theorycrafting is a different thing, actually experiencing her does give me some new insights.

  • her Passive is less irritating because I don't have to specifically kill poisoned targets to get my stacks up........this is a GOOD thing and a BAD thing GOOD: She's not great in lane. And if the opponent is smart, they can pretty easily zone her out, especially if it's like a LB or Fizz. Self-generating stacks makes this less of an issue. BAD: So umm...you basically removed a chunk of the gameplay you intended for her Passive?

Asides from that? It's STILL FRUSTRATING TO PUT UP WITH. It still feels like shackles. It's still unsubtly designed to gate her and reinforce the hyper-carry direction she was forced into. I don't know how or in what way these changes were designed to make her Passive "more exciting and less like shackles"

  • Again I must complain and moan about how she has 500 stacks...and 497 of those stacks are disappointing and unsatisfying

  • all that kajillions of free AP DOESN'T MEAN A THING when all of her abilities fail to utilize them. It comes off as manipulative...and not in a "she's a manipulative poison mage!"-sorta way, but rather a much more meta "see? Cassiopeia's rework is totally awesome so just accept it!"-sorta way.

  • reaching your milestones don't fill me with "wee I'm less trash now!"-glee. It fills me with "so how many years will it take for my Passive to kick in again?"-despair

  • you have no underwhelming and ineffectual 20% MS buff feels when it's conditional and attached to a delayed-skillshot that forces you to stand there to play the cast animation............while all other champions can get that sweet burst of speed simply from the press of a button. BALANCE-wise I can see it making sense. But again...the FEELS.

  • Please please please PLEASE start up a discussion in the forums about making Cassiopeia into an E-CENTRIC AP Rambo

  • Remember my final BALANCE point where I mentioned how Cassiopeia offers nothing but "Straight AP Scaling"? The main problem with that isn't just that it gives her zero fallback options, but also how uncharacteristic this is of a POISON MAGE. The image of a champion possessing nothing but "Straight AP Scaling" is one that desires RAW POWER over anything else. Xerath or Syndra are both great candidates, however Syndra have pretty nifty utility with her long ranged stun doesn't she? The problem with this "nothing but raw destructive power"-image that your kit provides is that it is Thematically Inconsistent with Cassiopeia . HOWEVER...this was the case pre-rework too! Except 2 things are different now.

  1. Her AoE DoT used to do jack
  2. I was complaining about how she could have been so much more of a POISON MAGE even pre-rework. I was EXCITED when I first heard you were going to rework her! But after seeing what you made her into...well...you know the rest :p
  • I just finished teaching my Math unit to my Grade 4/5 class and now my term as a volunteer Teacher is over, the students gave me a standing ovation and made me a beautiful farewell card and now I'm sad and I miss my students :(

TL;DR

  • playing Cassiopeia makes me FEEL frustrated because
  1. I'm reminded by how much more satisfying she was pre-rework and
  2. I am not rewarded one bit for landing ANY of my skillshots
  3. I have a better time managing my mana as Swain
  4. Playing Cassiopeia doesn't FEEL one bit like Cassiopeia...rather I feel like AP Rambo
  5. I NEVER get to experience a POWERFUL Cassiopeia because games ends before or right when I reach 500 Stacks
  6. How likely she is probably OP scares the crap out of me because people are incapable of differentiating between POWERFUL and FUN because they are all Spikes and nothing more

PS - So when can we expect to see the next overhaul? Anything to look forward to in 4.22?

99 Comments

Scampy20 votes

I'm really worried people are gonna give up on fighting to make her better, just because she's strong. Keep making threads like this!

chumbler14 votes

{quoted} I'm really worried people are gonna give up on fighting to make her better, just because she's strong. Keep making threads like this!

That's how Riot reworks go. Throw numbers at a shitty design until it gets picked in competitive once or twice just to shut people up, then immediately nerf afterward with cover from idiots who say "Well the rework got picked once in competitive!"

Not a single champion rework has been done with the intention of producing a viable champion.

Abyssphere10 votes

I worry the same thing. People suddenly seem happier with the rework just because she's less weak and while it's obviously important for her to be well-balanced (being completely unusable was obviously one of the biggest problems), it's not the most important thing. Plus if she's actually as good as people expect now then she'll just be nerfed in a patch or two anyway and we're right back to 0 good things about the rework.

The changes in 4.21 are largely good. I like:

  • Passive stacking over time. I have a much easier time stacking now and it feels so less stressful I can't put it into words. No more "oops I died well no more stacks for another minute" worry. Plus it makes roaming and stuff more plausible.
  • E mana cost. Her mana seems so much more manageable now with this change and that's a really good thing. She still needs to build a mana item obviously but the change is very noticeable.
  • Q cast time is really cool. Easier to hit, easy to get the speed boost. Speaking of - I think E is still best to max first so the first rank speed boost of Q moving from 10% > 20% is very useful.

Bad changes:

  • The poison debuff. I've decided I don't like it. It's actually a cool thing to do in game but it seems counter-intuitive to what people want (i.e more poison damage). The debuff being a thing means it's even less likely they'll buff the damage her poisons do on their own because Twin Fang will push them over the top. Also it leads to a massive lack of clarity for both her and her opponent. So I hope the debuff is removed in future or the damage on Twin Fang is reduced to compensate for giving her poisons their power back.

Only other bad thing is the changes that weren't made. Passive still has a total of one bonus that's interesting (spell vamp) and a bunch of numbers she shouldn't need. Miasma is still pathetically weak. Ultimate still only tickles people. E still has the feeling of being too central to her kit - it really needs to be scaled back to a less dominant position.

I really feel like 4.21 is largely a step in the right direction (debuff aside which seems like it'll limit the numbers on her poisons in future) but just because she's less awful now doesn't mean there isn't further to go. If Stashu works on the remaining issues then I'm certain this rework can eventually be successful. It literally just needs the passive to get interesting thresholds and number rebalances to put power back into her poisons (+ ult, I still say 50% scaling is a joke). Let's not just settle for "less awful than on launch" when we can still get her to an actually GOOD place.

Serpents Embrace7 votes

The passive being easier to stack isn't really a plus because it means we still have a stacking evolution passive on a champion that doesn't suit it.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

Her passive being easier to stack is because he removed an interaction from it.

As you've read from my post, that's both a good thing and a bad thing.

Serpents Embrace2 votes

I'd view it solely as a negative. Loss of agency is never a good thing in a video game. The input you give it is what makes it rewarding and fun, and losing the ability to input things will only ever be a bad thing.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

It's "good" because it helps make her less stressful for someone with an early game like hers...that and it puts even more pressure on Cassiopeia than she already receives.

This is a symptom of making her into a HYPER-CARRY. It's bad...well you kinda detailed why it is so. They removed an interaction.

DUDE BRO9 votes

The problem is the next patch notes will probably be:

  • Cass now gets a passive stack every 6 > 5 seconds.
  • Stack limits are now 100/200/500 > 150/300/600 (This is a buff!)
  • E now restores 1 mana on champion kill.

They clearly don't understand that no one likes this stacking mechanic. Evey a late game champ like Trynd can dominate early if he plays well and gets ahead. Forcing a champ to be weak early with low ratios and then forcing them to auto get strong over time without choice is NOT fun.

They don't seem to understand this and so it'll probably be a few more patches of ignorant changes before we get something that isn't a chore to play. I'm also hoping people won't get burned out and will continue to push for something that's fun.

SmokingPuffin4 votes

They clearly don't understand that no one likes this stacking mechanic.

You are almost certainly wrong about this.

I don't think you can even claim that most players dislike this stacking mechanic. I mean, where's the evidence here?

Forcing a champ to be weak early with low ratios and then forcing them to auto get strong over time without choice is NOT fun.

The thing with fun is that it's different for different people. I can't stand playing Vayne, but many people like her guaranteed to be awesome no matter what you do late game.

Serpents Embrace8 votes

The evidence? =\ Do you not frequent the boards?

And while it's not a great source for information - the popularity of her champion picks plummeting from already modest numbers kind of reinforces the fact that the rework was bad. And when you come to that conclusion, the first thing you're going to look at is the major change to her kit which first and foremost is the passive.

Serpents Embrace6 votes

I'm pretty sure that's the plan behind the atrocious response to feedback we've gotten.

It's clear from the rework itself that it was rushed, not very well thought out, and didn't use any community input.

And it's pretty clear from how ignorant the Rioter response has been to the issues in the kit that they aren't interested in cleaning up their mess, they're just interested in waiting until it gets swept beneath the rug.

5G8Nri0B543 votes

Yes it really does look like a rushjob no thanks to the rather uneventful LCS. There was just too many holes in the rework to have been a well planned out one.

Saevum4 votes

I'm really worried people are gonna give up on fighting to make her better, just because she's strong.

Im not happy with 'this' rework outcome, gonna stick around longer. Need more prototypes, and yet, Stashu is just pushing one. What kind of rework process is that? where's the fun/options of that?

Sparrow8915 votes

I'm sorry, but I've gotta disagree with you. I'm loving Cass 4.21 (although I'm very sad I couldn't say I'm lovin' Cass 4.20, for that, you shall always be damned Stashu, I don't care about your technical issues, you ruined my DREAM!).

Since I'm not paid to, I haven't read your FULL wall of text, but I think I got some of the more relevant bits and I just thought I'd throw my 2-cents in, because I think you're (and have been) blowing things WAYYYYYYYY out of proportion and honestly, at this point, you're coming off rather bad, IMO.

So, to start with,

"Basically the issue is, the moment you fib your E by accidentally throwing a torso-sized fang at an un-poisoned target, you're fucked."

This is simply no longer true with the flat 20% MS bonus to Q. You flub an E in a team fight? Toss a Q out there and get your scalely ass outta there before you get blown up and wait for E to come off CD. It's only 4 seconds. That's a Syndra Q. You can stay outta danger for that long, me thinks. Plus, you're Cass. You should have some extra HP.

As for "the feels."

Honestly, I felt like Old Cass last night. It was frickin' AMAZING. I got one of those wonderful 2v1 Double Kills mid game when the enemy jnlg tried to gank. GLORIOUS. I almost cried. And then we went and did dragon, and I just started SHREDDING him. TEARS OF JOY.

I hardly noticed / payed attention to my stacks. Did I reach 500 in any of the 3~ games I played with her last night? I don't think so. Did that matter to me? Nope, not one bit. The stacks don't feel like shackles anymore. If anything, I wonder why they're there anymore. Although I'm interested in getting a 500 stack Cass with a Deathcap now and see how absurd that shit is.

Is it nice reaching each mark and getting whatever perk comes along with it? Hell yeah! But do I feel useless until I do? No. I can still move around and function as complete character and champion, which is exactly what I want.

I've said this before, but I always feel like half these arguments are slightly hinged on placing Cass in the Mid Lane. Well, she just doesn't do that well in mid any longer, so STOP GOING MID. She's much better suited top, esp now with the flat MS you get from your Q.

You say that you don't like her anymore because she's just a E-machine gun, which I agree she was before, but that everything that made her fun before was about her Q. Honestly, I feel like this aspect of Cass was restored, and HEIGHTENED. Before you could just sit back and spam your Q, and the enemy was SOL, because you've got that MS buff, and you're not gonna get close enough for them to do anything serious until you know you've got the kill. Now, sure, you can spam Q's all day. But the only way for you to do dmg in to move in there and get some E's off. You only need two. Then follow up with another Q. Or, start with a W. I mean, the dmg I was putting out last night was stupid.

Honestly, you've all been bitching for ~2 weeks now about the same shit while we've known / Stashu & everyone else filled us in as WTF was up, and it's gotten SO ANNOYING. There was a delay bitch. Sorry, but what would you like them to do about it?

Edit: That is to say, even if the critics are given in the most respectful way, unless you had access to the PBE there was literally NO reason to continue on with those threads. The issue had quite clearly been addressed and changes were in the process of going through. Until we received those updates, it was literally just beating a dead-snake over issues which have been hashed over ad-nausium throughout the countless discussions. Seeing those constant threads felt like seeing a 3 year throwing a temper-tantrum stomping their foot saying "But I want it NOW! And with sprinkles! And the way grandma made it!"

These updates are AMAZING and are 100% a solid step in a great direction.

Stop asking them to revert the rework, that shit is so pointless and is the rhetoric of a spoiled brat.

@STASHU : GREAT JOB MAN! DON'T LET THESE HATERS GET YOU DOWN, THIS UPDATE DELIVERED 100%.

LongFur Fox11 votes

I think this is some underserved flag against ginga. While i have only a few areas where i agree with him he has been by far the most civil of those who hate the rework. For a while now he has been giving constructive feedback and suggestions on how to turn her into what she was before while keeping her healthy for the game. That said had this been in a certain someone else's thread i would agree with you.

Chortle2 votes

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6BFltu24IFY/UhNumW4J3WI/AAAAAAAABAw/DJAACY-iHtU/s1600/Whoomp_there_it_is.gif

Sparrow892 votes

I am glad my post allowed the opportunity for this gif to be used.

I love Fat Amy.

Serpents Embrace5 votes

You felt like "old Cass"?

She feels nothing like it, and my best guess if you've just forgotten what she was like. =\ You're so weighed down by the passive still, and farming it takes less work but gives you way less agency. It's more like looking at a clock now, than at a number you earned.

Your wave clear is no longer safe, because in order to do it effectively you have to go in to close range. Q and W no longer really does it until you max out everything which is more of a chore than before because waiting always feels worse than action. Your itemization is still forced in to a very small pool of items, the only mage I can think of with a smaller viability pool is Ryze.

You're so starved for quality content you ate 4.21's shit right up. Congratulations. You, and those with your disposition, is why Cassiopeia is going to keep moving in Stashu's misguided direction.

DemiluniS3 votes

you can speak only for yourself! If you think cass' most defining part of her kit was her wave clear, I would be embarrased for you... her Q DOES damage, as I'm maxing Q and E simultaneously, and her itemization is fine, the only thing you shouldn't buy on her is cdr

Serpents Embrace2 votes

I don't think it was her most defining trait. It was an example of how she's been completely stream-lined to only function in one way - and it's not even a particularly viable or identity correct way.

DemiluniS1 votes

what do you mean by identity correct way?! they didn't want her to be a poke champion without a cost, so they made her being stronger when she goes all in and weaker when she just sitting back and poking with Q. The exact same reason nidalee got a remake, she could sit back and throw spears all day, I guess you really liked and supported this playstyle

5G8Nri0B542 votes

You...do know that Nidalee's spears LITERALLY one-shotted champions right?

And I really mean literally.

DemiluniS1 votes

it doesn't matter! the pattern was the same, sit and poke until you forcing your opponent to retreat with no way to respond to your damage. Nidalee spears also didn't go through minions and are a single target spell. against Cass you couldn't just sit in you minion wave and being safe

P.S. you can downvote me as much as you want, you're gonna live with the salt over the new cass, not me. And as I mentioned earlier, players tend to like the most unhealthy parts of their champions, so you can keep sitting here convincing each other that the new cass is bad just because you can't accept her new healthier pattern of dealing damage.

5G8Nri0B543 votes

Unless you're really really shitty, Cassiopeia's poison doesn't exactly force people out of lane all that often.

Her problem was that her Q did decent damage at a poke-ish range, thus the logical conclusion was to retaliate by diving into her. However the sheer power of her E made getting close to her an impossible option.

Thus you have a literally non-interactive champion who is free to harass with Q with impunity because her other attack range was impossible to deal with for most champion. They nerfed Q so that she must use E.

The problem with that? **READ ALL THE CASSIOPEIA THREADS THAT'S BEEN MADE SINCE THE BEGINNING. **

DemiluniS1 votes

quit looking at everything from the enemies' perspective!it's like saying " just dodge spears", do me a favor. If you decent as cassiopeia, you gonna **land **those Q's since you can predict movement. pre rework she could just sit and hit those Q's from a safe range and force the opponent out of the lane.

Her problem was that her Q did decent damage at a poke-ish range, thus the logical conclusion was to retaliate by diving into her. However the sheer power of her E made getting close to her an impossible option.

Thus you have a literally non-interactive champion who is free to harass with Q with impunity because her other attack range was impossible to deal with for most champion.

exactly, you mentioned it yourself what her problem was. now her E makes the poison stronger but landing poison allows you to land more E's, you need to use both abilities to make the most out of her kit, and there's no problem with it.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

You really really never read any past threads at all have you...

quit looking at everything from the enemies' perspective!it's like saying " just dodge spears", do me a favor.

It had a hitbox roughly 2x of what it should be

Serpents Embrace1 votes

You only see a choice between "poke champion" and the current "E is the only thing that matters", and that is a problem that is not something I can really help you work out.

DemiluniS1 votes

If the thing that makes Cass shine among the other mages is her high single target damage, she shouldn't have the ability to stole the game as effectively as mages whos most difining feature is their long range/poke/wave clear

Serpents Embrace1 votes

Is that really what you think "made her shine"? :\ Honest and true, that's really the impression that you got? It's the impression Stashu got, which is why she's in such a shitty situation right now.

DemiluniS1 votes

yes it is, she the only mage that acts in a marksman fashion and it's what makes her unique.

her poison wasn't the key part of her kit since it just a type of damage, you could remove the poison and just say she does damage over type.

in order to make her a real poison mage her poison need to cause a greater effect on the enemy the longer it stays, instead of just slowly killing it.

at the same manner I can say swain's E is a poison since it acts the same way.

Serpents Embrace1 votes

...

Ain't no point bein' nice.

You're stupid.

DemiluniS1 votes

k mate, keep sucking it than, her rework not gonna get reverted, and while people gonna enjoy her you gonna stay the salty bitching little kid you are :)

Sparrow893 votes

As another user said, you can't speak for me, only yourself.

You're so weighed down by the passive still, and farming it takes less work but gives you way less agency. It's more like looking at a clock now, than at a number you earned.

Obviously this isn't the experience I had. As I said in my original response,

I hardly noticed / payed attention to my stacks. Did I reach 500 in any of the 3~ games I played with her last night? I don't think so. Did that matter to me? Nope, not one bit. The stacks don't feel like shackles anymore.

Is it nice reaching each mark and getting whatever perk comes along with it? Hell yeah! But do I feel useless until I do? No. I can still move around and function as complete character and champion, which is exactly what I want.

Safe wave-clear? That's what you're bitching about now? Close range? 700 IS NOT close range. At BEST it could be called MEDIUM range.

I don't mind having to take additional actions, or having to use my skills syncronically, for them to be effectively used. Cass is a high, previously regarded as THE highest, skill cap champion. That's something that a high cap champ would require. Take for example Syndra. People always say her ult is bullshit insta-delete blahblahblah. Except, on its own, it's pretty lackluster. With a decent amount of AP, you might get something like ~800 dmg, before MR and all. You've gotta get 2, 3, or if the fates have aligned, 4 Q's out there before, or it's really just a glorified, targeted, Veigar W.

Having this new interaction between E and her poisons ADDS to Cass's skill-requirement, and I think it's really interesting way to allocate more power to her other poisons. And it also makes sense thematically, at least in my eyes. Getting hit with fangs would allow more poison to be pumped into you rather than just kinda standing in some toxic cloud, or being blasted by some noxious of vapor. Or the fangs inject an agent which makes one more susceptible to the venom.

A host of y'all are so salty, you'd already decided that this update was shiet before it even came out. I've seen it in your comments like "only way to critic is to suffer," and shit like that. Well no wonder you're not enjoying it bitch, YOU'VE ALREADY DECIDED YOU HAVE TO SUFFER THROUGH IT.

At this point, I feel like there's nothing Stashu can do, save reverting the rework (won't happen), that would make this host of y'all happy. It's gotten to the point where the individual(s) responsible for you being unhappy is yourselves. You have made the decision to be unhappy, and when that happens the only thing that can make an individual happy is when they make the choice for themselves.

Stashu has shown he's been listening, and cares, and is trying different things out, and he's been COMMUNICATING, setting as far as I know a new frickin' Gold Standard outside the early fumble, and yet you CONTINUE to berate him, when NOTHING can be done, and these changes were waiting on the PBE.

Like, really?

Serpents Embrace2 votes

He's only shown he's pretty bent on pushing his own identity for her. =\ He's replying to messages, I wouldn't say he's listening.

DemiluniS1 votes

because returning more poison damage to her kit is not what people were asking for. /s

Serpents Embrace2 votes

NOT BY PUTTING IT ON THE E. IT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE PUTTING IT ON TO THE E.

DemiluniS1 votes

are you really that stupid? it adds interaction in her kit without abusing her poke power... actually I didn't have to ask, you are stupid.

Giovarco7 votes

I'm glad to see people give detailed feedback on Cassiopeia. I wrote my feedback here, but was more syntetic:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/LorvXjuh-feedback-about-cassiopeia

After the rework, I do so bad with Cassiopeia in SR. Cassiopeia never will be viable because assassins like Zed, Katarina, Akali and Fizz (otherwise any champions who starts with item 1001 ) overflow in mid lane now and she can't land one Q. And even if she does, she can't E because she's can't close the gap, has low damage and is so weak early (one of the most susceptible to CC champions). Cassiopeia isn't an hyper-carry. She used to be a beast in early game while doing fine in late game. Now she's very weak early and can't reach late game. She should be a mid-game champion IMO.

I'm an Urgot player. Urgot has the same pattern of her, but she can't compete with Urgot:

  • Cassiopeia Q has 850 range, Urgot E has 900 range
  • Urgot Q has 1000 (1200 with Lock-on) range, Cassiopeia E has 700 range
  • Both have a slow, but Urgot ones can be used when comboing, Cassiopeia can't often.
  • Urgot can use his Q without lock-on each 2 seconds, Cassiopeia can't use her E more than one time without a reset each 5 seconds
Serpents Embrace6 votes

Ginga, the voice of the people, falling on the deaf ears of Riot (A.K.A. Stashu).

Kowe The Ewok5 votes

Good post. I agree with most things said (everything about gameplay at least), however I do get 500 stacks relatively well. However at the same time I often won't have much farm simply because my opponent will drive me out of lane. I do get stacks upon trades, but I still don't reach her powerspike anywhere near average game length.

What bothers me most is how dull she feels, like mentioned earlier: Q, W and R all feel wortless on their own.

Hell, specially R... There are non ultimate abilities which deal more damage... And the mindup is just so frustrating considering the low damage. Today I had kats, Hecarims and an Irelia all dodge it continiously with their dashes.. (And a Gp omnom out of it) Sometimes I wished I could just throw Tibbers at them insteas... Sure stun. 0.3 better initial sclaing, continious AoE DPS with 0.2 sclaing... The ability to tank towers... Cassiopeia's ultimate just feels like the worst of all ever since the nerf. Not to mention that everybody and his dog has access to tenacity these days unlike when she was initially released and designed.

Arkna4 votes

{quoted} SHE'S STILL A HYPER-CARRY through and through and she comes with a Hyper-Carry curve that hyper-carries not named Tristana and Ryze are subjected to. This is exactly as I expected, I knew your update is still trying to keep her as a hyper-carry as you've said it yourself. But just as I've told you often enough, she was never a hyper-carry pre-rework and her design does not suit that of a hyper-carry.

First off, it's not that Ryze lacks the power curve of a hyper-carry, he just goes where short ranges and long trades are the rule rather than the exception. Secondly, pre-rework Cass was a prime example of an AP hypercarry via twin fang spam.

Abyssphere4 votes

The ult being bad is definitely a sore point. Stashu (or maybe Morello) said they think the delay/ability for the enemy to turn around was good because it provided counterplay but... why does an ult with so much counterplay have so little reward for successful use? :/ Annie's ult is safer to use, is FAR more reliable and yet does more damage, plus has an easier time stunning a bunch of people. How does that make sense? I like Cass's ult having counterplay but right now it's "high risk, no reward" and that sucks. The design principles applied to Cassiopeia are so inconsistent and that's one of the worst. How come Cass has a much harder time landing her ult than the vast majority of champions but gets nothing in return? It makes no sense.

Junkο3 votes

I didn't read everything and i still agree with every single thing you said.

Fluppets9 votes

That is literally impossible.

Cabo6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rainbowe Dash,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6hRhT5Gn,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2014-12-11T14:06:00.901+0000) I didn't read everything and i still agree with every single thing you said.

did you read the part where he insulted you?

youngjake933 votes

Maybe take Cassiopiea bot lane with a Leona+send your adc mid? You have twice the champs to get stacks on, Leona keeps you safe plus strengthens your levelling curve, your poison+E spam procs her passive, and she is master at locking people down for you to blow up. Plenty of ADCs can go mid like Trist, Lucian, Ezreal, Corki and have more safety+pushing power+trade potential than early game Cass.

I mean this involves..... BREAKING THE META, but it sounds good in theory.

Jryiah2 votes

{quoted} Maybe take Cassiopiea bot lane with a Leona+send your adc mid? You have twice the champs to get stacks on, Leona keeps you safe plus strengthens your levelling curve, your poison+E spam procs her passive, and she is master at locking people down for you to blow up. Plenty of ADCs can go mid like Trist, Lucian, Ezreal, Corki and have more safety+pushing power+trade potential than early game Cass.

I mean this involves..... BREAKING THE META, but it sounds good in theory.

Good luck getting a ranked team to do that, or even a normal blinds. Sometimes you will get a cool and flexible group, but 9 times out of 10 its walking on eggshells and ragefests whenever the meta isnt followed. Which is why I always stick to the meta just to avoid that.

Probably higher elos get to enjoy cool privileges like that but as for silver players, good luck.

Serpents Embrace4 votes

The problem here is that even late game ADCs will kick her ass because they do something in lane and can trade.

Even ignoring the loss your team gets by placing you there, or the kill potential drop Leona gets by laning with you - your opponent can capitalize on everything you do because trying to farm the passive makes you predictable, and you have a relatively small danger zone to the typical ADC.

Even things like Vayne will destroy your early game damage, because they get flexbility from auto-attacks that Twin Fang will never afford you.

DemiluniS2 votes

I don't get where you getting this information from, or you had such a hard time playing her?!!! I didn't have any problem trading with the enemy mid laner early game or an adc late game. instead of making a statement about cass as a champ, better look at yourself as a player, and see what you're doing wrong, because she's far from what you trying to describe she is.

Serpents Embrace2 votes

Play her against an ADC early game.

They will wreck her. The way AD and AP scales in general already weakens AP champions in early level extended exchanges (which is what most 2v2 lanes turn in to) and she isn't able to sustain like most AD scaling champions are because she doesn't get her pseudo spell vamp until her first "checkpoint".

And no, I'm going to continue making these statements about her as a champion as long as Cassiopeia's identity continues to be completely butchered by the rework.

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