So many champs, be it zed, pantheon, riven, fiora even (sometimes), renekton. they deal pure ad damage, they get by with a longsword and 3 pots just because it gives a little more sustain than dorans blade, then they come back with a brutalizer and can suddenly kill you from full in 3 hits no matter if you buy armor or hp. how do you play against this?
Kowe The Ewok19 votesAccording to Zed mains: Build a QSS
xD
Mishli1 votesI was referring to just hte poke, not the ult potential, zed with a brutalizer on you can w - e - q and shred half of the average person's hp without his ult, i understand building qss is good against ult, but if you put almost 1500 gold into magic res while he finishes his bork or something else? he will be able to kill you without his ult at that point
Kowe The Ewok11 votesThis comment was meant ironically (thus the smily). Let me explain. Zed currently is overpowered. He however has a big playerbase who defends him.
We're on the same side - you just failed to detect the irony in my initial post ;)
Mishli3 votesirony now understood, gg sir, lol
Saianna1 votesThe only solution i can see: Pick champion that hurts even more. Or champion who also uses brutalizer. I'd say Garen or Darius. Zed will have hard time cracking trough that defense.
Junkο2 votesActually every Zed user is saying buy "QSS OR Zhonya". Guess what Zhonya gives? Tons of armor while also giving AP amount that Rabadon and DFG give.
AetherKingdom1 votesZed isn't overpowered. -Coming from a non zed player
Earl Eulrich1 votesZed is overpowered - coming from a Zed player.
dunno where this leaves us now.
AetherKingdom1 votesgg world. seriously though, zhonya prevents zed from being overpowered. I'd say Zed is OP if Zhonya was nerfed, but the true freelo will never be nerfed.
Earl Eulrich1 votesZed is just pretty similar to Lee there...early on it´s fairly easy (and Zeds midgame-duelling is very hard to match outside some very specific counters), but lategame you really have to (ab-)use his mobility to the fullest to have the impact you can have - though if you manage to do that then lategame is his strongest phase in the game.
The only thing that prevents him from overtaking every game is not Zonias, it´s point&click hard-CC (or Kayle).
Worgslarg8 votesBy reducing the exaggeration.
I dare you to find a champion with 10 or less armor at level 1. Only then can they be dealing "pure ad damage."
A cloth armor negates the ARpen of a brutalizer, with 5 armor to spare.
You can also play passively in lane, and not give them a chance to force trades.
Mishli2 votesI'm not exaggerating, went jax vs panthon yesterday, started dorans shield (not best idea i realize) trying to defend against the poke, my jungler was stupid and tried to dive him, i had to run b, all i could buy was some pots, and a cloth armor, pantheon started with a long sword, came back with a brutalizer, literally w + e +q and i was at <1/4 hp. and no, pantheon did not have armor pen runes
1 4m 4 n00b1 votesYou are upset a Pantheon that was 2-0 with 20 CS 4 shotted you?
StealWolverine3 votesI'm not exaggerating, went jax vs panthon yesterday, started dorans shield (not best idea i realize) trying to defend against the poke, my jungler was stupid and tried to dive him, i had to run b, all i could buy was some pots, and a cloth armor, pantheon started with a long sword, came back with a brutalizer, literally w + e +q and i was at <1/4 hp. and no, pantheon did not have armor pen runes
If hes backing with the 1k gold it takes to buy a brutalizer, and you only go back with a little over 300 i dont think the problem is brutalizer.
its not just the pen thats causing the dmg, theres also the fact they have another longsword and a half of ad.
you should easily have had enough gold for a chain vest which should have been enough to solve that problem.
Hayaishi1 votesI'm not exaggerating, went jax vs panthon yesterday, started dorans shield (not best idea i realize) trying to defend against the poke, my jungler was stupid and tried to dive him, i had to run b, all i could buy was some pots, and a cloth armor, pantheon started with a long sword, came back with a brutalizer, literally w + e +q and i was at <1/4 hp. and no, pantheon did not have armor pen runes
If hes backing with the 1k gold it takes to buy a brutalizer, and you only go back with a little over 300 i dont think the problem is brutalizer.
its not just the pen thats causing the dmg, theres also the fact they have another longsword and a half of ad.
you should easily have had enough gold for a chain vest which should have been enough to solve that problem.
So i have to rush a chain vest as an AP mid, where's the part where Zed has to build MR in lane again?
It doesn't have counter, AD casters are crazy strong in lane for that reason, Jayce, Zed, Riven all become lane bullies due to how cost efficient and little ways to defend it that item has.
Ad Astra per Asp1 votesIf you had 900 gold you could buy seeker's armguard, and start building even more armor as the laning phase goes on up to 45 armor. Pantheon is a very strong champion pre-6. But then he falls off more and more as the game goes on. If you know you face a pantheon you know he depends on getting ahead during his early game phase to win. His ult is basically not used unless he went B or is going to gank. Don't be fooled into pushing while he backs and get dropped on. Because his ult is otherwise not useful for laning phase. His spear poke and stun->channel combo however are very very strong as long as he can have the mana to spam them (with crystaline flask he can spam them) and then have lane control and enough gold. If you start armor and 5 hp pots vs him and have armor runes, he can't kill you in lane unless you make very poor trading and engagement choices. He will literally go oom first. Just focus on last hitting and let him push. His early game is strong but he has no escapes and is ridiculously easy for your jungler to gank. He also has very cruddy AD ratios and for an AD caster that makes his late game even worse. Don't feed pantheon early and he's super weak.
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesIt also sounds like there's a lvl difference. No doubt about it, you lost lane. In that case, why are you fighting him? Don't. Just stay away and try to farm as best you can.
I get tired of ppl acting like they should always have a chance to fight in this game... that's not how it's designed. If he's ahead, you stay away. Every single time someone goes all in, any lane, one or both of the players will die. If the other player is far ahead, the person dying will be you. So don't do it.
Saianna1 votesYou know that armor penetration runes (quint/mark only) + brutalizer = 29 armor pen +25 ad? That almost makes them dealing true ad damage.
Orangesilk5 votesDue to the way the math works, the best counter to ArPen is... more armor, seriously look it up, armor gives less defense the more armor you have, and viceversa, so if you have 90 armor, getting down to 80 armor means you went from 50% damage reduction to 47% damage reduction, however going from 30 to 20 means you went from 30% to 20%
(Numbers are complete horseshit, but you get the idea)
Earl Eulrich3 votesthat´s absolutely not true, as going from 0->50% reduction is exactly as strong as going from 50->75%. Reducing dmg is relative value, not absolut numbers.
Phrite3 votesI might be misunderstanding your point but Orangesilk is correct. Armor has diminishing returns. 100 points of total armor gets you a 50% physical damage reduction. At 200 points you get a total of 66%. So after your first 100 armor, your next 100 points only gets you 16% more. It's a logarithmic function, it 'evens off' and each increase in armor or MR corresponds to a smaller increase in DR.
Siosilvar3 votesY'all are talking around each other. You're both right, technically. The damage reduction armor gives has diminishing returns (and that's why more armor makes flat pen less useful, since reducing 10 armor from 300 is less useful than reducing 10 armor from 30), but in terms of effective health it has flat returns. When people say "armor doesn't have diminishing returns" they're talking about effective health, which is relevant when you're building it but not when you're building pen against it.
youngjake936 votesI might be misunderstanding your point but Orangesilk is correct. Armor has diminishing returns. 100 points of total armor gets you a 50% physical damage reduction. At 200 points you get a total of 66%. So after your first 100 armor, your next 100 points only gets you 16% more. It's a logarithmic function, it 'evens off' and each increase in armor or MR corresponds to a smaller increase in DR.
Lol actually armor does NOT have diminishig returns. The amout of damage you reduce with each point is the same. If you have 100 health with a 50% reduction and the enemy has 100 AD you can live 2 shots. If you have 66% reduction you can live 3 shots. If you have 300 armor you can live 4 shots. Each 100 armor gave you exactly one more auto attack of survival time which is not a diminishing return. However, at higher amounts of armor the increase you get from health gets better. In the previous example, if you had 200 armor and 200 health instead of 300 armor and 100 health you could live 6 attacks instead of 4.
Drunk Rummate1 votesI might be misunderstanding your point but Orangesilk is correct. Armor has diminishing returns. 100 points of total armor gets you a 50% physical damage reduction. At 200 points you get a total of 66%. So after your first 100 armor, your next 100 points only gets you 16% more. It's a logarithmic function, it 'evens off' and each increase in armor or MR corresponds to a smaller increase in DR.
Lol actually armor does NOT have diminishig returns. The amout of damage you reduce with each point is the same. If you have 100 health with a 50% reduction and the enemy has 100 AD you can live 2 shots. If you have 66% reduction you can live 3 shots. If you have 300 armor you can live 4 shots. Each 100 armor gave you exactly one more auto attack of survival time which is not a diminishing return. However, at higher amounts of armor the increase you get from health gets better. In the previous example, if you had 200 armor and 200 health instead of 300 armor and 100 health you could live 6 attacks instead of 4.
correct. armor gives linear returns but it scales multiplicatively with health if you're talking in terms of ehp.
Earl Eulrich1 votesYea, I´m pretty sure you missunderstand it, as you are still talking in absolute numbers (though it´s a very common mistake regarding this issue, happens in about any game with a similar formula).
Let´s just look at the (easy) Numbers I posted above:
someone has 1000hp and 0%reduction -> he can take 1000dmg before he goes down someone has 1000hp and 50%reduction -> he can take 2000dmg before he goes down someone has 1000hp and 75%reduction -> now he can take 4000dmg before he goes down
so while the absolute number only increased by 25%, the relative value he gains from it still is adequate to the gain he had from 0->50% (he doubled his effective health again).
or to take it to the extremes:
if you go from 99,999%reduction to 100% it will still make you infinitly more durable, as you would now be effectivly invulnerable.
ProfDrDeath1 votesCorrect.
To put it in effective HP:
10 Armor gives you 110% of your HP against physical damage. Meaning, getting someone from 10 Armor to 0 Armor reduces the damage they can take by a factor of (1-100%/110%) 0.09, or 9%.
Taking someone from 160 to 150 Armor, on the other hand, reduces the damage they can take by a factor of (1-250%/260%) 0.038, or 3.8%.
asdbnmrty5 votesIn terms of itemization, buy some armor and hp early on. While this might seem obvious, there's a little more finesse about it that people often overlook. You don't have to go balls deep into defense itemization (ex rush 
Randuins or 
Sunfire first buy), you just need enough defense to reasonably survive the incoming damage in order to retaliate (in which you will need to be able to deal a reasonable amount of damage back at them).
I often buy an armor component, HP component, and damage component (not a full item, just parts for the stats) in a varying order to slightly boost my ability to absorb damage as well as return damage. From there, I look at my lane situation to see what to heavily invest in. If the enemy laner is pushing out a lot of damage, I'll buy more defenses. If they are pushing out a manageable amount of damage, I'll consider either defense or damage item. If they are pushing out less damage then expected, I'll go damage item.
In terms of gameplay, it depends if their kit is targeted or skill shot oriented. If targeted spells (like 
Pantheon or 
Fiora, I know it will never miss and this places more emphasis on items. This causes me to play more cautious and passive, as we are playing an itemization race at this point. I'm guaranteed to take the damage so I'd better have the items to be able to take it (can't fall behind due to deaths or recalls).
If skills shot spells (like 
Zed, 
Riven or 
Renekton in terms of spells dependent on their position), I know there is less emphasis on itemization and more on skill. This gives a little more freedom on items as it's less of how much a damage a spell will do verses if the spell will actually hit. At this point it entirely comes down to personal preference, as the player would know best of how likely a spell will hit (their skill level) and can build items accordingly.
So, the original question. How do you defend against a 
Brutalizer rush? Well, the answer would greatly depend on the situations outline above. It is important to note that you can entirely influence the rate of acquisition the opponent will get the Brutalizer (advantages trades, zoning from farm, ect). You can also influence the rate of your own item acquisition (trading again, strong CS mechanics) in response to Brutalizer, which would then influence the effectiveness of it. Additionally, you can consider outside influences (your team and their team jungle/other lane ganks, Dragon buffs, and hell even a full on lane swap with other lanes).
tl;dr : Depends, I got real deep bro.
Drunk Rummate2 votesgood post man. sometimes i see people get so focused on finishing an item that they don't look deeper into things.
sure, pantheon's spears are chunking you in lane, but you don't need a completed randuins to stop those from hurting. finish your wardens mail and then get working on that tiamat so you can actually hurt him back when he goes in on you. there's no point in itemizing against someone if you don't build enough damage to pose a real threat to them.
The Storm Dragon3 votesI mean. Brut costs 1337 gold. But a cloth armor, which is 300, gives more armor than Brut gives pen. Pick up a chain vest. Or if you're an AP champion; then Seeker's Armguard.
Creamy Seaman1 votesWhy would you rush the useless brutalizer that builds into two completely negligible items when you can rush a last whisper and pretty much give them 0 armor 10 minutes in while being a cheaper build path?
Drunk Rummate9 votesWhy would you rush the useless brutalizer that builds into two completely negligible items when you can rush a last whisper and pretty much give them 0 armor 10 minutes in while being a cheaper build path?
because a last whisper against base amounts of armor will give about 15-20 armor pen for 2300 gold. brutalizer gives cooldown reduction for almost half that price and yoummu gives about same penetration early on as well as a really nice active for only 400g more, and has the super efficient avarice blade in it's build path. it also has an easier build path since it's 2 longswords instead of longsword + pickaxe with a huge final cost.
brutalizer gives a better damage spike than last whisper early on and it's better against low armor targets in general.
Drunk Rummate1 votespantheon, zed, renekton, and riven all have really high burst damage early on. your best bet for stopping them from snowballing with an early brutalizer is armor. this is especially true against pantheon since there's no counterplay for his combo other than staying outside of his range, which generally means not laning against him at all.
keep in mind a brutalizer costs 1337 gold. you can spend 750 on a chain vest for an efficient counter, leaving yourself some gold for a longsword and boots as well.
Earl Eulrich1 votesWell, the basic problem is that if you buy just armor that´s just one stat - while Brutalizer offers 3. Meaning Brutalizer scales with itself and thus making every of it´s stat more powerfull than if you just look at them in isolation from each other...thus granting a way bigger powerspike than just the chainmail. So you need at least a Chainmail+a Giants belt to compete with this defensively, which you most likely won´t be able to afford at the first back, leaving you very vulnerable to brutalizer-rush for the time being.
AFK Push1 votesThe best way to play against this strategy is a 
and 5
start. You will out sustain them in lane. Then since builds into 
you rush a . If they are smart they will build a 
in response to this, but usually they will follow up with a 
, because they don't realize that your armor beats a brutalizer.
Feel free at this point to get some damage yourself and you will generally outscale these , if you are someone like 
etc.
Tldr: Play somebody that outscales the early game brutalize rushing champions, play someone who outscales them mid or late game, and start with a cloth 5 pot start then rush a sunfire cape.
Konidias1 votesBrutalizer can be built into Black Cleaver which has 10 flat armor pen and then also can remove up to 25% of the target's armor... so yeah... that's pretty strong. I feel like Brut into Black Cleaver is a stronger anti-armor weapon than LW. I'm not saying don't ever get LW... just that you get earlier armor pen from a Brutalizer into BC than you would trying to just rush a LW.
You need 1000 less gold to get some early armor pen with Brut vs LW, plus the great CDR. Then you can later build it into BC for a great late game item.
If you start with a long sword, rushing a Brut is super easy... It's far cheaper than waiting to get a BF sword or something... You can almost always get a Brut on your first back if you don't just get wrecked.
Darkwind1 votesCatayst is king.
Potato Doc1 votesIm not sure its the most effective but I usually get HP instead of armor if they rush the brutalizer it might be a short term solution but it helps me until im able to get a ton more armor. Try that out it might help :D
