Zoe as a champion, should not be able to exist in her current state.

we havent met·Jun 15, 2019·5 votes·1,667 views

Now before you slam your "shes A BURST MAGE OFC SHES GONNA DO DAMAGE" at me, i get that. i do! But the bullshit spammable 3 second burst on q is so fucking stupid. it just is. She should get rewarded for hitting abilities YES of course. But a champion killing something in under a second with just q, is ridiculous. A poor design and should've never been created. Even syndra, the once BURST QUEEN. Doesnt do that with just one of her abilities. It's insane to know zoe is allowed to exist in that state.

14 Comments

Polaris IJun 15, 20194 votes

That’s like most mages though except they have more than two offensive abilities

we havent metJun 15, 20192 votes

Except they have to work 4x as hard to do what zoe does for just fishing skillshots

Polaris IJun 15, 20194 votes

Lux: press q, if hit then press e r e, it’s not that hard Xerath: press e, if hit press w q Syndra: press q q q, press r Ahri: press e, if hit then press q w Annie: press r q w You begin to notice a trend with these champs, they’re not that hard. Mages are incredibly over powered and easy to play

we havent metJun 15, 20192 votes

none of them are even half as spammable or as bursty lol

Sona PingJun 15, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Polaris I,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6YX4Vg9L,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-15T07:55:44.476+0000)

Lux: press q, if hit then press e r e, it’s not that hard Xerath: press e, if hit press w q Syndra: press q q q, press r Ahri: press e, if hit then press q w Annie: press r q w You begin to notice a trend

I did notice a trend... you're using a champion's entire kit including ultimates to justify the damage on and argue against this complaint about one of Zoe's abilities. " they have more than two offensive abilities" Yeah, including Zoe.

xox BaByDoLL xoxJun 15, 20192 votes

I don't even see Zoes anymore....outside of me playing her sometimes.

All i ever see mid now is Zed, Talon. Zed, Zed, Talon, Talon again, and then Zed. [sg-janna]

bronze smurf69Jun 15, 20192 votes

Piss poor design? Check. Made by certainlyt? Check.

What the hell do you expect a champion like that from a designer like that? A Nobel peace prize?

If Morello was still in the lead he would give a bitch slap and say "back to the drawing board" or at least some other rioter with the balls to go full Gordon Ramsay on the designers.

Hemulen MagiJun 15, 20191 votes

I think she should be adjusted to be a support according to the meta and only go mid as her secondary position. As long as she's a primary mid laner, she'll need to reliably have the damage to waveclear, which means her Q can't have its damage reduced significantly. Making support her primary role opens up more flexibility to balance her around lower damage.

I think she should be balanced like this:

Her Q AP scaling is gutted but it's left with just enough base damage to properly waveclear at level 1-3 and sort of barely function to waveclear up to level 6 from there. If she manages to build a lot of AP, it should still kind of work for waveclearing for a while after level 6, but it should be falling off in damage sharply and scaling poorly so there should be no guarantee that it will still function to waveclear by that point. Against champions, it should deal alright damage but just a pretty standard skill-shot basic ability level of damage.

Instead, if Zoe wants to continue waveclearing, she should absolutely need to rush item 3152 or item 3030 . Zoe's W should be buffed a ton to compensate for the massive Q nerfs so that her W becomes her ability to max. W should grant passive active item CDR and summoner spell CDR with each rank. Combined with more spell capsules to refill her active charges, she should be absolutely spamming item actives for any item she builds. Her optimal build should involve cramming as many active items as she can item 3152 item 3905 item 3157 item 2065 item 3107 . As a mid laner, she'd end up having much more utility and less damage than most other mages - almost a mage who transforms into a second support as she gets more utility active items.

When played as a support, she should have a surprising amount of lane sustain with just summoner 7 when W maxing, and she should build a lot of utility items with active effects item 3092 item 3107 item 3190 item 2065 item 3222 item 3056 item 3905 . She should get ward charges and occasional item 2055 if she has finished her support item mission. Compared to most supports, she should deal a pretty decent amount of damage with her Q, passive, and W missiles. She should be in the same category with Lux Morgana Zyra supports for damage, if not possibly having slightly less damage. Her E should be her second priority to max as support for its CC and zoning. She'd be much more utility oriented and have less of her power budget in burst damage.

Luther King Jr VJun 15, 20191 votes

i wish i could edit "zoe is fine" on one of those crabs dancing videos

Everyday LegendsJun 15, 20191 votes

When airing grievances against a Champion, I advise against exaggerating. It tends to invalidate your arguments by sounding more like whining than an assertion. At no point does Zoe have a "spammable 3 second burst" with Paddle Star, even with the maximum 45% cooldown reductions. Paddle Star, on its own, is not a particularly powerful ability. Allow me to make a couple of comparisons:

Ziggs' Q, Bouncing Bomb: its minimum range already exceeds that of Paddle Star, and its maximum is 75% greater than Paddle Star's. It's base damage and AP scaling are both greater than Paddle Star's. Bouncing Bomb has greater projectile speed than Paddle Star. And most amusing of all, it's Rank 1 cooldown is lower than Paddle Star's Rank 5 cooldown. If you're looking for "spammable 3 second burst", you'll find it here.

Ahri's Q, Orb of Deception: once more, has range greater than that of Paddle Star, and has a faster projectile. Because Orb of Deception will hit on both passes for each cast, it's base damage and AP scaling exceeds Paddle Star's on any target hit by both passes. This is on top of the fact Orb of Deception goes through it targets, while Paddle Star bursts when it hits a target, and the fact that Orb of Deception deals true damage on its way back, increasing its damage. Also, Orb of Deception's cooldown starting from Rank 1 is better than Paddle Star's through Rank 3 and will only be matched at Rank 4. Did I mention that Orb of Deception can also heal Ahri?

What gives Paddle Star its damage-dealing potential is being combined with other abilities, particularly her ultimate, Portal Jump. Because of this, her damage is gated more by Portal Jump's cooldown than Paddle Star's, and only at Rank 3 (Level 16, at the earliest) does Portal Jump have a shorter cooldown than Paddle Star. Zoe's damage not "spammable". In order for Paddle Star to reach its full potential, Zoe must aim a skillshot from long range (that moves as slow as a Morgana or Lux Q), and she has to combine it with her ultimate in order to make it reach that range. Not just "one of her abilities".

As a final note, it's not exactly fair to compare Zoe to Syndra, considering Syndra's ultimate is unit-targeted, meaning she only needs to click on her target and gets to ignore body-blocking.

we havent metJun 15, 20192 votes

The difference between the champions you listed here: Zoe's cooldowns are extremely short. The minute she gets ludens, q becomes a 3-4 second cd. Whereas every other champion has to wait longer and use full rotations.

You say it isn't fair to compare syndra to zoe, sure. But it was less about kit comparison and more about how literally every burst mage has to work for their kills. Lux has to full combo twice for a kill . Ahri has a rather hard time assassinating if she even misses one part of her kit. Syndra also has to hit literally everything. Meanwhile zoe picks up free summoners that also do damage and give her mov. speed. On top of her e being fairly easy to hit once you get level 6 and smack it in theit face. Then being met with a 3-4 second q that doesn't dissolve her mana. I'm going to do some comparisons now, note that ahris pool of mana is lower than zoes and her full combo leaves her oom while zoe can be more spammy.

Paddle Star [Q] Cost: 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 Mana Cooldown: 8.5 / 8 / 7.5 / 7 / 6.5 seconds Range: 800 Paddle Star2.png Active: Fire a missile that deals increasing damage the further it travels. Recast to redirect the missile to a new position near Zoe. Min Magic Damage: 7 - 50 + (50 / 80 / 110 / 145 / 170) (+60%) Max Magic Damage: 17.5 - 125 + (125 / 200 / 275 / 350 / 425) (+150%)

Orb of Deception [Q] Cost: 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 Mana Cooldown: 7 Range: 880 Active: Ahri sends out and pulls back her orb, dealing magic damage on the way out and true damage on the way back. Ahri's abilities generate Essence Theft stacks when they hit enemies (max 3 per cast). At 9 stacks, Ahri's next Orb of Deception that lands a hit will restore health for each enemy hit. Magic Damage: 40 / 65 / 90 / 115 / 140 (+35%) True Damage: 40 / 65 / 90 / 115 / 140 (+35%) Essence Theft Heal: 3 / 5 / 9 / 18 (at levels 1/6/11/16)

So you'd already be a little off here. 170+60% scalingwith say 100 ap would give here about 230. (This is the minimum damage.) Ahris q at the same scalings, is 350 given the same approximate ap and hitting both ways. However most zoes arent hitting at minimum range. Max range with 100 ap is 425 plus 150 is 575. But again it's a little odd to compare the two, they do two different things.

Bouncing Bomb [Q] Cost: 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 Mana Cooldown: 6 / 5.5 / 5 / 4.5 / 4 seconds Range: 850 to 1400 Area of Effect: 150 Active: Ziggs throws a bouncing bomb that deals magic damage. Magic Damage: 75 / 120 / 165 / 210 / 255 (+65%)

Yeah you're right, ziggs q scaling sure is bigger than zoe's.. if zoe only knows how to fight at minimum range

Everyday LegendsJun 15, 20191 votes

"Ahri has a rather hard time assassinating if she even misses one part of her kit." Oh, please. Her Charm literally forces her enemy to walk towards her while being unable to take action, her W and Ultimate automatically lock onto their target, and her Q goes through targets, so nothing can body-block it.

"Syndra also has to hit literally everything." Syndra's E is the only ability in her kit that needs to be aimed and can be blocked. Everything else will hit anything in the area she designates or is unit-targeted, meaning all she has to do is click on what she wants to use the ability on.

"Meanwhile zoe picks up free summoners" That is false. The Spell Shards Zoe collects are not "free", they must be earned. Zoe needs to collect them. She needs to last-hit a minion that spawns less than one-per-wave and then go over to it to collect it. Alternatively, if an enemy Champion is irresponsible enough to use Summoner Spells or item-active while Zoe is around, Zoe has the opportunity to try to safely collect it. Considering it's right there for everyone to see, you have every opportunity to stop her from collecting it. Use you area-attacks, point-and-click abilities, crowd-control, skill-shots; it's easy to stop her if she's going for it. If Zoe has a Spell Shard, it means no one stopped from collecting it. She earned it.

"zoe can be more spammy" Zoe more "spammy" than Ahri. Oh, jeez. Well, I've already pointed out how Ahri's Q has a superior cooldown for most Ranks. How about their E's next? Their crowd-control skill-shots that are crucial to their combos. Zoe's E: 20 / 18.5 / 17 / 15.5 / 14. Ahri's E: 12. Ahri's E has a shorter cooldown at every stage of the game.

"However most zoes arent hitting at minimum range. Max range with 100 ap is 425 plus 150 is 575." Why are you taking calculations using her maximum range? Your complaint, and I quote, was about Zoe "killing something in under a second with just q". Zoe cannot achieve maximum range "with just q". To achieve that range, she needs to incorporate other abilities into a combo.

"if zoe only knows how to fight at minimum range" That's exactly what I'm saying. Zoe does less damage at closer range. Ziggs (and most other Champions) do not have this limitation. If Zoe wants to achieve her full potential, she needs to land long-range skill-shots (which most people would agree are more difficult than short-range ones) and she needs to use other abilities to achieve that range (which provides opportunity for skill-expression). It's not "just q".

By the way, claiming that "ahris pool of mana is lower than zoes" when the difference is literally only 7 mana is rather manipulative, especially consider Ahri's gets greater mana regeneration than Zoe as a game progresses.

chipndip1Jun 15, 20191 votes

There are so many items you can buy to answer this champion ON TOP OF just dodging her skill shots...like who's going to out themselves as the guy that doesn't know that Banshee's Veil exists in 2019? No one's gonna do that.