Marksmen's problem: They're balanced by weakness, their strengths are always a constant

TeCoolMage··3 votes·801 views

Most comps need these 4 things:

  1. Tank
  2. Magic Damage
  3. Physical Damage
  4. Marksman

While the typical Marksman is also physical damage, most physical damage champions like Tryndamere and Zed aren't able to fill their role so even with a Jax top lane, the bot lane has to have a marksman (unless they go jg or something)

This is because marksmen are typically balanced around having different weaknesses, slight differences in strength to form their own niche, and strengths that are not only absolutely required, but are expected and mostly unique to them.

For example, Ashe has vision control, CC/kiting and global pressure with her ultimate. They aren't as strong as someone like Teemo, Shaco, or anyone who wards, and her CC is weaker than pretty much any control mage mid or support tank. Caitlyn has good sieging but not as good as Xerath, Anivia or Lux. While she's typically seen as having really 'great' sieging, it's mostly because her competitors in bot lane are weak in that regard, and she's the only piece that'll fit the marskman shaped hole in a siege comp.

There are only around 15-20 bot lane carries while probably over 30 viable champions in every other role, as a result of the combination of marksmen requiring support and marksmen being required in general.

Marksmen, however, aren't outclassed by other champions at all. In fact, it's the opposite. While Caitlyn may not have the sieging power to match Xerath, she has the inherent strengths that marksmen must always have. She can take towers quickly, kill tanks easily, and scale off gold better than ability based champions. These three strengths are absolutely required against the typical enemy team, and it's nearly impossible to win without them.

Meanwhile, mages get range: a strength that benefits them more than it benefits the entire team, which is understandable. They also get CC, but that's something that tanks and supports can get. Assassins get back line access, but mage's range can substitute this strength. Supports get zoning and buffs but tanks and control mages can subsitute that too. The only other group of champions that have the same problem as marksmen are tanks who's durability is absolutely, but that's for another discussion (damage vs tankiness, one will always be stronger).

Marksmen's irreplacable strengths:

Taking towers quickly

The problem isn't only AD scaling and attack speed, it's also that supports and mages can zone off a tower's front where most marksmen and mages can auto from while being unharmed, while melee champions either have to get very dedicated sieging champions like Xerath who can keep the enemy ranged champions out of the tower's range completely (letting the melee champ attack the tower with the same force as a marksman assuming they have similar gold) or have their niche in split pushing. There isn't a way to replace this strength with an entire class's typical capabilities, only picking ziggs (who's slower than tristana anyway), or having very good zoning, can make marksmen less needed. General strength that can only be replaced by niche picks.

kill tanks easily

A DPS mage like Karthus can definitely replace an ADC, but Karthus and Cassiopeia are their own niche, and there is no other class that can inherently kill tanks more easily. The main problem here is that tanks have to be tanky to stop the enemy burst from simply stomping, and are weak if they're killed by anything other than a marksman, but strong if they're not killed by marksmen. Personally, I think tanks should not negate damage, but make it have diminishing returns, so they can die to the enemy burst mage, but in team fights the chance is also pretty much the same, rather than 2 champions focusing him suddenly makes him blow up like a squishy. That way marksmen aren't the only tank-killing class (with a few niche picks here and there in other classes like Karthus, Cassiopeia and trundle) while tanks don't suddenly become useless.

scale off gold better than ability based champions

In pro play, all the CS typically gets fed into the marksman, as they use gold more efficiently. Without a marksman, there isn't a hole to place all your gold in while remaining efficient, everyone gets gold but it's not taken advantage of to the same degree as everyone else. The problem is mitigated by rabadon's and stuff like triforce that scale along with you, but the fact marksmen have damage as long as they're in range while everyone else is gated by costs over time and cooldowns makes it difficult to balance.

So what options does that leave the Riot balance team with?

  1. Get rid of those strengths - This creates a huge rift where no one can replace these strengths, games last forever unless there's extreme snowball, Baron takes years to kill, bot lane has no purpose unless jungle can take dragon quickly.

  2. Give those strengths to other classes through champion changes and new releases - This is a huge change that Riot has to put a lot of time to, and will most likely not work. The amount of changes to make comps not need marksmen would be huge if they had to rebalance all these champions, and releasing new champions will mean that the meta simply revolves around these guys until everyone before gets reworked.

  3. Create new class(es) - This is a fun choice that can potentially work. There can be champions dedicated to objective control to replace marksmen. Dealing % uncapped HP to dragon and baron, executing towers from a global range, disabling them, creating new towers around baron and dragon, etc.

  4. Give them weaknesses so strong they're balanced - This is what Riot does, they make bot lane squishy, prone to ganks and constant attention, make items like ninja tabi and thornmail, kill them off in other roles, gate them with early game, much more than with other classes. But this causes people to complain about them having too clear strengths, as shown with the "I'm tank why do I keep dying so quickly" threads.

  5. Change itemization - Easiest, next to maybe 4. Make more items that increase your scaling with gold, and help you take towers (Split Lich Bane into two items!). And finally, make items that lessen mana/energy/cooldown/range pressure if a caster goes bot lane

4 Comments

Sardaukar1232 votes

do you remember that one fight from the movie Gladiator where 1 man is given a sword and another man is chained to him and is given a shield? thats league of legends.

no ADC can survive without tanks and no tank can survive without an ADC.

though you say ADCs are supposed to kill tanks quickly, the marksmen update did the exact opposite. and marksmen became the worst at killing tanks.

the reason is because in that update, ADCs got linked so hard to attack speed crit and damage, while their ability to penetrate armor got wrecked.

which is why item 3142 item 3071 and item 3147 became dominant in the bot lane. these 3 items in combination with 20 physical penetration from masteries can have you ignore up to 60 flat armor pen, along with the 30% from cleaver in general. it meant you were doing true damage on all of your attacks. but these items take space so there wasnt enough room for attack speed and crit.

why would i get item 3508 item 3031 item 3087 item 3046 and end up with 200 damage with 100% crit chance but 0 armor pen? if you crit the 200 damage, thats about 500 damage (with the IE bonus of 50%). However, the enemy has so much armor he reduces the damage i do by 60% which leaves me at 80 damage after reductions

the crit of 80 is 200... thats nothing when considering tanks' HPs can ramp up to 4k and 5k.

but you cant make something unkillable... but also you cant just have it lose its purpose! if ADCs are too strong tanks lose their purpose and if tanks are too strong they become unkillable and ADCs lose their purpose. if it does land on a middle ground... well then the game becomes stale and boring.

Edit: i would like to add that ever since the recent magic damage buff against towers. where your autos benefit from AP against towers AP champions have been able to take down towers way faster than ADCs. just check out how fast Diana can chunk down a tower with her passive. its worse than nasus! or a veigar who stacked so much AP.

TeCoolMage1 votes

do you remember that one fight from the movie Gladiator where 1 man is given a sword and another man is chained to him and is given a shield? thats league of legends.

Well, yeah. But those two people shouldn't be 'tank' and marksman' while everyone else is optional. It should be 5 people chained together each with their own choice of tools/weaponry and the sword + shield combo shouldn't be required.

Edit: i would like to add that ever since the recent magic damage buff against towers. where your autos benefit from AP against towers AP champions have been able to take down towers way faster than ADCs. just check out how fast Diana can chunk down a tower with her passive. its worse than nasus! or a veigar who stacked so much AP.

Some AP champions are able to take towers faster than marksmen. Diana is still melee, however and is always at a disadvantage when sieging. Nasus, Veigar and Diana can replace marksmen occasionally in their comps but having to pick one of 3-5 champions to replace an entire class is unfair when entire classes can be replaced with other entire classes.

dunder kill1 votes

I think a lot of the problem is that ADCs are balanced around being underleveled because they're in a duo lane. When they get ahead and are keeping up in levels with the rest of the map they become pretty oppessive

Mimy1 votes

You forgotevery team could use a "Support"

I'm offended... Jk hahaha

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