Thoughts on Garen

Blue Collar Bear··2 votes·1,297 views

I was thinking about Garen, and he is one of my favorite champions. However, he is just boring to play. He is highly predictable and easily countered, due to his cut and paste combo. What I feel makes Garen unique is his innate sustain / tankiness, the spin to win, and his execute. His identity is that of a tanky aoe team fighter with gap closer and execute. Now, Garen's Decisive Strike (Q) is his gap closer, and this is the part of his kit that I dislike. This ability is highly telegraphed, because Garen is easily blocked by minions. An experienced opponent knows this, and will recognize if Garen is attempting to use the ability. The ability is also single target, no counterplay. The change(s) I suggest would give Garen a higher skill ceiling, fix his current problems, and give him a more solid core identity.

Taking away Garen's gap closer, I think, would create more problems than it would solve. What I would like to see is a short ranged, skill shot based dash that either interacts with walls as a form of bonus damage, or does not allow him to pass through walls. The dash would either push aside minions or allow him to ignore collision. Following the dash, there would be a cleave-like ability that is similar to cone abilities that would damage all champions in range. However, having an aoe silence is extremely oppressive, especially for someone who deals damage like Garen. I know that Riot has begun changing who has a silence to allow more counterplay. To make up for the lack of his silence, Garen would receive another form of crowd control. If champions are at the end of his cleave, they are knocked back a short distance and take extra damage. If the champions are closer, they are instead stunned for an even shorter amount of time and do not take extra damage.

These changes would easily fix the problems that Garen currently has, and he would become extremely fun to play.

EDIT:

If you have a different opinion about Garen, please express it.

32 Comments

Only Play Darius5 votes

Garen's silence is half his utility, he can rush the mage and silence them to give his team an easy kill.

To be honest i like the feeling of charging into battle, breaking free of all slows while doing so. It really fits Garen, being the frontline penetrator that he is designed as.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

My change fits him better thematically as a front line tank with a lot of aoe damage. Displacement abilities fit tanks, because everybody loves being a strong champion that flings people around like dolls. By giving him an aoe engagement/disengagement, it raises his skill cap and gives him more team play. The mechanic would be extremely satisfying.

SEKAI2 votes

Except that concept rarely works, if at all.

Charging into battle manually is very bad these days unless you have cc immune like Sion or Olaf, like Garen who tanks his way in he doesn't really get out (consider all the damage type, dashes and the amount of cc/self peel these days) unless he is super ahead from whatever reason which in that case he is rewarded.

His mechanical skill is too simple, too easy to predict and counter while not allowing the player to do anything out of ordinary, he is too 1 dimensional and needs to be revised.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

The one dimensionality is what I was aiming to stray away from. Keep him extremely simple to use, but extremely satisfying to play whilst also raising his skill cap for those who enjoy playing him.

I agree with what you said here.

Only Play Darius2 votes

I have seen people build DPS, crit and lifesteal on Garen to suprising effect, and with item 3071 you can reduce the armor of half the team with good positioning, 25% reduced armor on 3 enemies makes a HUGE impact in teamfights. I agree that garen could use some diversity in the ability department, but adding a dash isn't the way to do it. Giving a tank a dash is just going to end up poorly, and before you bring up Shen lets face it, with 20% bonus value from resistances and 30% damage and CC reduction on W, Garen is much more tankier than Shen is capable of. Give garen a dash and players will bitch endlessly about a champion who is already extremely difficult to kill getting mobility that gives him zero counterplay. So then they will nerf Garen's tankiness to maybe Renekton's level if we are lucky, or considering how impossible to kill Garen is when he is the slightest bit ahead, they may just nerf him to the ground and Garen will become completely unviable.

Frankly i'm ok with Garen for right now. He is outclassed only by alistair when building full tank, does decent damage for most of the game, especially with item 3071, he's a reliable top lane pick because of the mana regen nerfs, and sometimes it's just fun to build a thornmail + sunfire and see how miserable you can make the enemy team as they spend ages trying to kill you, then rush out of the area with Q and wait for your passive to refill your health, only for you to go bother the enemy team over and over again in the same manner.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

Yes, Garen can build in a variety of ways. This is not about balance, though. It is about raising Garen's skill cap and making him fun to play.

I'd like to avoid numbers and focus on concepts. This is not about giving Garen a mobility buff. If anything, this is a nerf to Garen's mobility. Shen has a dash range of 600 units. Keeping that in mind, my idea of Garen would only allow him to have maybe half of that. This is not about mobility. It is about fixing his play style. Currently, Garen is capable of out running champions with his Q. At high levels, the movement speed buff is quite noticeable and this is his escape at almost every point in the game. The change I am proposing removes his ability to run. Thus, he has to be careful about his engagements instead of engaging and then running away to regenerate his health, like Mundo. I'd rather not have two Mundos.

redniwediS2 votes

The thing is it's always about balance. Your change might increase his skill cap, but if it unbalances Garen he can and will become nerf worthy. Garen is in a good spot balance wise, and so any change made to him must not adjust his overall balance level. A dash would be a direct buff since his main weakness is sticking to his targets. Q works well for this, but if you get hit by any CC your choices are to either flash in pursuit or stop chasing.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

The dash would be very, very limited. It would be 200 - 400 units, which at max range is comparable to Urgot's attack range or less. This does not give him enough mobility to stick to targets, only to engage or disengage. The cooldown is mildly long without reduction, but if his mobility and disruption within fights becomes a problem, it's simply a matter of increasing the cooldown.

Social Justice 13 votes

With silence and waveshoving, Garen's laning phase is oppressive when done right. His biggest issue is getting that silence onto somebody in a teamfight. Maybe giving him immunity to slows for the duration of his speed boost wouldn't push him too far ahead of balance. Then it would make the enemy team use some of their hard CC to hold him down, leaving Garen's teammates free from said hard CC

Blue Collar Bear2 votes

Making Garen immune to slows makes him very mobile, and that would become a problem. I'm not saying Garen is in either a good or a bad place balance wise. He is pretty moderate, to be honest.

It does not solve the problem of his no fun, no skill play style.

Omnem Occido3 votes

Garen is made for people who are getting used to the game: he has no resource and he has a really simplistic ability set. Garen is simply a champion who's main purpose is to teach people the role of tanks, and how to execute that role. In other words, he is a new player champion. Thus the 450 IP/260 RP price. Other champions, like Shyvana, Nasus, Renekton, Shen, etc. are much more difficult to understand. The intricacies of their kits are for higher ELO, experienced players.

Blue Collar Bear2 votes

The price of a champion is determined by how long they have been apart of the game, not who should be playing them. A lot of 450/1350 IP champions are extremely old and originate back to launch day. If his only role was to teach, then he should not be playable in any other mode than a tutorial one. His role is also not that of a tank. It is fighter, as earlier pointed out in the post.

Riven is resourceless and I find her simple to use. This does not mean that she is meant to teach new players how to play the game. It just means her skill floor is low enough that someone new to her can play her, and do well. However, her skill cap is high enough that she sees competitive play and is enjoyable to use for lengths of time.

I find myself repeating this a lot, and I might edit my post to add this point. This is not about raising Garen's skill floor. It is about raising the skill cap, and keeping the skill floor the same. If this happened, Garen would be more enjoyable to play for longer periods of time whilst still being accessible to new players.

Unironic SJW2 votes

If you're Garen and the entire enemy team is blowing everything on you to prevent you from 100-0ing their ADC or mage, you're winning.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

That's the thing. This isn't about balance. This is about making Garen a fun, interesting champion to play. His mechanics and current play style are just unbearably boring for anyone who's even slightly experienced.

He is a tank, and that is what tanks do, though.

Done251 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fluffysaurus Rex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6JUPZIrU,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-01-31T20:07:23.146+0000)

That's the thing. This isn't about balance. This is about making Garen a fun, interesting champion to play. His mechanics and current play style are just unbearably boring for anyone who's even slightly experienced.

He is a tank, and that is what tanks do, though.

Actually no, he's not. Garen is a Fighter. Nothing in his kit is even geared towards disruption beyond the AoE threat he brings. He prefers AD over AP, especially now that DFGaren is gone.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

His secondary role is tank. Having a secondary role means he has characteristics of that role. Besides, there are very few people who play Garen as a fighter to begin with.

Nothing in his kit is geared at disruption. That is true. However, the displacement ability would be to make up for his lack of silence with the proposed change. Riot has begun to phase out silence on champions that can abuse it to 100-0 someone with no counterplay, so this is a change that makes sense, especially on a champion that can build fighter. The change would give Garen a heavier team fight presence and more team play, which is what Garen's identity is based around, whilst also fixing several issues that Garen currently has in the game.

Done251 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fluffysaurus Rex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6JUPZIrU,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-31T20:25:39.288+0000)

His secondary role is tank. Having a secondary role means he has characteristics of that role. Besides, there are very few people who play Garen as a fighter to begin with.

Nothing in his kit is geared at disruption. That is true. However, the displacement ability would be to make up for his lack of silence with the proposed change. Riot has begun to phase out silence on champions that can abuse it to 100-0 someone with no counterplay, so this is a change that makes sense, especially on a champion that can build fighter. The change would give Garen a heavier team fight presence and more team play, which is what Garen's identity is based around, whilst also fixing several issues that Garen currently has in the game.

I do think he could possibly benefit from a new Q. I mostly think it's Riot's fault for giving the crit on his E a -50% damage modifier, this really hurts his late game damage. (According to Riot, for whatever reason, Garen is supposed to be useless past level 11.)

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

Being able to damage five people at once is very strong. If the modifier didn't exist, everyone would build him as a melee carry like Yasuo. That's beside the point, though.

Garen does fall off late game. The new Q would improve his late game, I think, because his team fight presence would be more noticeable while not improving his damage.

Done251 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fluffysaurus Rex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6JUPZIrU,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-31T20:35:48.838+0000)

Being able to damage five people at once is very strong. If the modifier didn't exist, everyone would build him as a melee carry like Yasuo. That's beside the point, though.

Garen does fall off late game. The new Q would improve his late game, I think, because his team fight presence would be more noticeable while not improving his damage.

Yes, but it's also countered by him having to build durably enough to SURVIVE being in the middle of 5 people. If a Garen with Ghostblade and IE gets off a full spin in the middle of the enemy team they should be punished for that,

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

I'm not sure, to be honest. I just wanted to visit on a few concepts to make Garen a fun, moderately skillful champion.

Done251 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fluffysaurus Rex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6JUPZIrU,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-31T20:49:30.643+0000)

I'm not sure, to be honest. I just wanted to visit on a few concepts to make Garen a fun, moderately skillful champion.

The skill part comes figuring out how to get in close enough to deal damage. In lane he can use the bushes to get in close enough to Q his way in, but team fights are harder and he has to rely on his team to create the openings he needs to slip in. Like an Amumu using his QR combo, or a Galio using Righteous Gust and Idol of Durand to hold the team in place.

This is also why those two champions are Tanks, and why Garen is not and should not be one.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

I was unsure of the balance part.

Garen would not be an engager. He would have a gap closer with short, situational crowd control attached to it. He is not Malphite.

Matezoide2 votes

The only thing i want is for Garen's ult to have a shorter cast time.

Blue Collar Bear2 votes

For an ultimate like Garen's to have that high of a cooldown on an already fairly weak ability is pretty sad. I had a discussion with another forum lurker about Darius's ultimate versus Garen's ultimate. With just 140 bonus AD, Darius can easily deal a 1000 true damage execute with resets. Garen can't deal that, even on a 2000 hp target missing 3/4 of their health because of resistances.

Matezoide2 votes

Yeah, his Ultimate is weak as shit especially compared to the CD. I am not even going to complain about random glass cannons with 25% HP survivng it.

But lets have baby-steps. The sheer amount of times i have died mid-ult cast is plainly sad. I just want his Ultimate to not suck.

Fun fact: Garen's Ult with 30% CDR still has a higher CD than Riven's Ultimate with 0% CDR.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

I'd like for his ultimate to be useful, but I do not believe that his ultimate is what makes him terribly boring to use. His ultimate to me is like the climax of a story with his other abilities being pieces of the story. It is satisfying to use it, but it's also extremely annoying when it doesn't work as intended (execute). All it would take is an exclamation point appearing when they will die from his ultimate.

His combo is what him boring and predictable.

DorkunedAuras2 votes

I"m just going ot say that, in a game like league, there need to be some low skill cap champions for the noobs to play. They help people get into the game, and can be really relaxing to play if you're tired and want to do a quick game for FWotD before bed. Making every champion high skill is bad, leave the intensive champs to be intensive, and leave the relaxed ones relaxed.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

The changes I proposed would keep Garen in an easy to use format whilst also raising his skill cap.

Literally, the only thing that would change is a point, click, and dash ability. The only worry that I would have using this ability is accidentally dashing in the wrong direction. It is no different than misclicking the turret when trying to target someone with Garen's current Q.

I think you may be confused between skill floor and skill cap. The skill floor is how much experience is needed to have to play a champion well. Alistar has a high skill floor, because not everyone can pull off his combos. It takes practice. Garen's skill floor is super low, because players are able to pick him up and do well. The skill cap is how well you can potentially do with a champion. Now, Garen does not have a high skill cap. If you have played the champion hundreds of times, your gameplay is most likely not going to differentiate much from a person whose only played it a dozen times. Someone who has played Alistar a hundred plus times is going to show clearly different gameplay than someone who has only played him a dozen times. This is an example of skill cap.

What these changes would do is raise the skill cap for Garen (so players are rewarded for understanding him and doing well with him) whilst also keep the skill floor relatively low for new players.

DorkunedAuras1 votes

I already understand the difference between skill floor and skill cap. I'm just saying that having that would raise the skill floor more than you might expect. I'm not saying he spontaneously becomes a high skill floor champion, but I'm just saying that league does need rock bottom skill floor champs. And while individual champion skill caps can be relatively low, your personal overall skill level does reflect if your playing of champions in many little ways, CSing being the most obvious example.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

The skill floor of the champion has very little to do with being good mechanically. The only way I can think that it would impact a player is through understanding the champion's animations. With that being said, changing Garen's Q to what I am suggesting would not raise his skill floor past beginner level. Of that, I am more than positive.

I disagree that League of Legends needs rock bottom skill floor champions. From what I understand, the top ten most popular champions at the moment are popular for a few reasons: they feel strong with the ability to make high impact decisions on the game. That's all I want to give Garen. To do that, his cut and paste, no brain combo needs to be changed.

SEKAI1 votes

Make that so he jumps onto the target he is executing instead of doing from 20 miles way while not scaling on any kills at all, this makes use of his tankiness while giving him an actual engage so wouldn't be using 80% of his hp just from trying to run to his intended target given how many cc and true damage/%hp this game has now.

Just foods for thought.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

Bump!

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