Isn't that what Z'rot is for?
How about instead we give Sunfire an AoE blast active that stores up power as you burn champions with it?
And give the Portal a friendly beetle buddy that follows you around and helps with pushing regardless of the active? Have it quickly respawn if it gets killed.
Helmight20 votesI believe the idea behind buffing Sunfire's damage aura against minions was to give it a niche that doesn't overlap quite so much with Deadman's Plate. I also don't think it overlaps too terribly with Zz'Rot Portal, since the former requires you to be in the lane while the latter can be placed in a brush and auto-push while you rejoin your team. Zz'Rot is also slightly more useful in siege situations, though less useful overall in fights.
Dengeden1 votesYe, not to mention ZZ,Rot doesn't force you to melee the wave.
Hayaishi215 votesZZ'Rot and SunFire are completely different, like idk how can you compare them.
ZZ'Rot feels more like banner of command if anything.
Rebonack2 votesZZ'Rot and SunFire are completely different, like idk how can you compare them.
ZZ'Rot feels more like banner of command if anything.
Tank item focused on aoe sustained damage and pushing.
Tank item focused on pushing and more pushing.
One item for 'I want more aoe sustained damage for team fights with a side of pushing'.
One item for 'I want to push like crazy, all the time.'
Duke Anax5 votesZZ'Rot isnt all that great for pushing.
It's good for taking a tower down, but you need to push into tower first, for example with Sunfire.
Sona Ping14 votesNo, that is exactly what Sunfire is for. That's what it has been for a long time; one has always built Sunfire to help with clearing on tank champions who do not have clearing ability on their own (or at least, less than desired waveclear). For another example of this see: Cinderhulk.
Rebonack1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6E9yjbVj,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-01-28T22:43:08.685+0000)
No, that is exactly what Sunfire is for. That's what it has been for a long time; one have always built Sunfire to help with clearing on tank champions who do not have clearing ability on their own (or at least, less than desired waveclear). For another example of this see: Cinderhulk.
Back in Season 1 you built it for its damage. Its damage got nerfed, and then people mostly just used it for wave clear.
Then Portal came along, an item explicitly created to improve wave clear on Tanky folks. Thus, given the focused niche of Portal it makes a good deal of sense to focus Sunfire on burning champions rather than minions. If anything it should be getting its bonus damage against enemy champs, not minions.
kasfas8 votesPortal is for lane pressure and splitpushing.
Sunfire is for splitpushing and aoe teamfight damage.
Rebonack2 votesPortal is for lane pressure and splitpushing.
Sunfire is for splitpushing and aoe teamfight damage.
Exactly.
All I'm saying here is make Portal's push stronger with a persistent beetle-buddy that attacks minions and self-destructs on towers. Your champion would basically act as a Portal, but can only have one beetle out at a time. The active would still be the same.
Make Sunfire's AoE teamfight damage stronger. Larger AoE. Or bonus damage against champions per champ in the AoE. Or a fireblast active. Or something to that effect. Improve Sunfire where it doesn't overlap with Portal rather than where it does.
kasfas1 votesWell, sunfire does give HP where portal gives mr and hp regen. Different items for different scenarios I guess, because sometimes you need flat hp more than mr and hp regen.
RiotRiot Axes6 votesDo they really overlap that much? Personally I view Zz'Rot Portal as being about map pressure and rotations for true tanks, while Sunfire Cape is about pushing lanes and sustained teamfight damage for both Tanks and Juggernauts.
On live right now, you'll buy a Sunfire Cape if you care about all three of: getting tankier, getting help clearing minions, and dealing area damage over extended periods of time in teamfights. By buffing it against minions specifically, champions who feel good about those three things feel better about it as an item without a lot of extra collateral damage from everyone using it or from dying more quickly to damage auras.
ShadowParker2 votesSpeaking of Zz'Rot. I feel like you guys will get rid of it pretty soon here, when: I dunno. But the concept of it is genius. So if you could ask the community before you delete it that'd be great. :)
GundayMonday4 votesZZ'rot is one of my favorite items. No reason to delete it!
Birefringence1 votesHonestly it would be an interesting idea for other items as well kind of like banner of command. I would love to have that active on an affordable support item, I simply love tinkering with actives and minions! :D
kasfas1 votesGet it on poppy, bonus 12% is good value...
Samflash31 votesExactly. I see Zz'rot as a way to freeze a super inhibitor lane or to pressure a tower. If I'm losing, it's Zz'rot + Warmongs . I just pick sunfire cape to burn stuff down.
But still I had a few questions about Sunfire cape (and to a lesser extent, thornmail), Mr. Axes
Why doesn't it (Sunfire or Thornmail) proc Liandry's? Is 2% of current health over 4 seconds potent?
Why is the burn calculated per second? I don't know if I'm the one noticing it but the tick that happens whenever fighting just seems more like a burst AoE than a sustained one. I kinda wish it ticked every half second or so kinda like DoTs so I can see how much I burned them for.
Why is Wits end so expensive and Abyssal a lot cheaper? Both synergize with Sunfire due to the magic shred but Wits is getting whacked a lot harder.
If anivia wore a sunfire cape and was in her egg form, would she be boiled or baked?
RiotRiot Axes5 votesExactly. I see Zz'rot as a way to freeze a super inhibitor lane or to pressure a tower. If I'm losing, it's Zz'rot + Warmongs . I just pick sunfire cape to burn stuff down.
But still I had a few questions about Sunfire cape (and to a lesser extent, thornmail), Mr. Axes
- Why doesn't it (Sunfire or Thornmail) proc Liandry's? Is 2% of current health over 4 seconds potent?
Thornmail is a proc, and those don't apply Liandry's as a rule. We also treat Sunfire as a proc because the interactions are just too much - Sunfire+Liandry's+Rylai's would be a truly awful experience.
- Why is the burn calculated per second? I don't know if I'm the one noticing it but the tick that happens whenever fighting just seems more like a burst AoE than a sustained one. I kinda wish it ticked every half second or so kinda like DoTs so I can see how much I burned them for.
Makes last hitting more predictable.
- Why is Wits end so expensive and Abyssal a lot cheaper? Both synergize with Sunfire due to the magic shred but Wits is getting whacked a lot harder.
Wit's End is probably just weak, but buffing it doesn't really get us anything - it collides so hard with other items that its use rate will stay low with buffs until it's just better than the other items, then it will straight replace them.
It probably needs a moderate scope rework, but we've got a lot in the pipe and that's pretty far down the list, given that the champions who currently use it aren't underserved, they're just served by other items.
- If anivia wore a sunfire cape and was in her egg form, would she be boiled or baked?
Boiled - there's plenty of water around because, well, ice phoenix.
Sire Hippington1 votesWit's End is probably just weak, but buffing it doesn't really get us anything - it collides so hard with other items...
May i ask which items that are? As for me it fills a clear niche that no other item tuches: AS+on-hit+AS. And aditionally also magic shred. The problem is that (tanky)magic-onhit isn't exactly well supported outside of jungle with devourer, More ap-focused champs have the problem that nashor's with the low base and high scaleing doesn't support tanky builts that much, and Wit'S overall is just a bit weak(and has a needlesly bad builtpath, it would be easy to replace the nullmage with a negatron)
Yes, most of the potential users can work perfectly fine with other builts, but what about item diversity? Haveing a mr+off options for champs that scale more with as than ad, and also haveing the option to support magic damage from other champs on a more AA focused champ are imo a good niche for it, aswell as it supporting magic on-hit builts and i don't see how buffing it to serve it's niche well was a bad thing.
...that its use rate will stay low with buffs until it's just better than the other items, then it will straight replace them.
What's the big issue with it haveing a low use rate if properly balanced? Why not doing the minority that actually uses/wants to use the item a favour and buff it to an reasonable state that isn't just better than other items? If it's not objectivly worse anymore, maybe more people start to notice it as an niche pickup? It may not have a much bigger use rate directly after the buff(though the fact that it apears in the patchnotes will probably increse the userate alot allready), but if it's viable(which includes magic-onhit beeing viable as a whole), it will probably find some increase in it's use rate over time. And even if not, as long as it isn't problematic in some way like DFG was, why not make only a few happy?
This is a problem that i generally have with the item policy, many niche items get removed or 'reworked'(though replaced fits better for many) just because they aren't used often. There are many items that i miss by now, and i honestly still didn find a good reason for why they have been removed/replaced. ER for example. I haven't heard any comlaints about it in terms of balance or gamehealth. It was considered very niche and/or to weak by most, though some includeing my self used it rather often and with great succes, it was even used in competetive play. So why not keep it and add a new item for crit champs, instead of destroying old ER and replaceing it with a crit item? The adc-item rework killed many off-builts that didn't use crit, and with that it killed most ad champs for me.
Jungle Lux God1 votesWit's End doesn't collide with anything. It's the only defensive item with attack speed on it in the entire game. Emphasize the attack speed and on-hit portion of the item, and it's nearly impossible for it to compete with other magic resistance items, nor is it possible for other magic resistance items to compete with it.
Wit's End should be the magic resistance item for when you want some extra on-hit magic damage, Spirit Visage should be the magic resistance item for when you want extra sustain, Banshee's Veil should be the magic resistance item when you really want that spell shield, and Locket of the Iron Solari should be the magic resistance item for when you want some extra team utility. There's no overlap for Wit's End here.
Likewise, Wit's End should be the attack speed item for a tank, where the other attack speed items fulfill attack speed roles on different builds (with Nashor's Tooth being the on-hit item for AP champions, Devourer being the on-hit item for junglers, and the other AD oriented items each having their own niche for AD builds.) There's no overlap for Wit's End here.
Rebonack2 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6E9yjbVj,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2016-01-29T21:59:43.614+0000)
Do they really overlap that much? Personally I view Zz'Rot Portal as being about map pressure and rotations for true tanks, while Sunfire Cape is about pushing lanes and sustained teamfight damage for both Tanks and Juggernauts.
And by adding a beetle buddy to Portal, it would be an upgrade from 'I want this lane to be pushed' to 'I want this lane to be pushed while also pushing harder in general.' That would make it the go-to choice for pushing and lane pressure, which would be a good purpose for it.
You would also gain a beetle buddy. And I think we can all agree that would be pretty much the best thing.
On live right now, you'll buy a Sunfire Cape if you care about all three of: getting tankier, getting help clearing minions, and dealing area damage over extended periods of time in teamfights.
Which is the problem. When an item is being pulled in too many directions, it has trouble feeling really impactful in any one of them. That's sorta the problem BorK has, too. Do I get this for lifesteal? The OnHit damage? The kiting passive? Items should be about clear choices. They do one, maybe two things really really well. I think you guys did an amazing job in that regards with the Zeal items.
By buffing it against minions specifically, champions who feel good about those three things feel better about it as an item without a lot of extra collateral damage from everyone using it or from dying more quickly to damage auras.
The express goal is to make Sunfire more attractive, yes? Then we've got three options. Improve its tankiness, improve its teamfight utility, or improve its pushing power. Improving is tankiness is dull. In the best case scenario, it's nice for items to have similar raw stats but differ in the passives they offer.
Improving pushing power? Well, most Juggies already boast pretty good AoE damage. They're aren't in a great deal of need for more when it comes to pushing. Tanks like it a bit more, but we've already established that pushing/lane pressure is Portal's thing. And Portal is already a criminally under-used item. Hence the beetle-buddy suggestion.
So that leaves us with team fight utility.
If we don't want to simply up the aura damage on Sunfire (likely a poor plan). How to make it feel better for its user?
Sire Hippington1 votesI view Zz'Rot Portal as being about map pressure and rotations for true tanks,
funny you sai that, as i use it way more often on juggernauts than on tanks, as the hybrid defstats are great as a late item to support their usually health focused core built, and more splitpush power aswell as mobillity is quite nice to have on a jugger. On true tanks, i rarly see an opportunity for a no-hp item later in the built, as iceborn/FH is core, and i like to get abyssal...
Lord Boltrix5 votesI like the idea of the beetle buddy, I feel a lot more people would just enjoy the company!
Rebonack1 votes[{quoted}](name=Lord Boltrix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6E9yjbVj,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-01-29T00:39:21.106+0000)
I like the idea of the beetle buddy, I feel a lot more people would just enjoy the company!
Certainly.
More pets is fun!
Alamand2 votesZZ'rot is for tower pushing
sunfire is for minion clearing
This is a why not both situation with these two items cause if you're building them you probably have a champ that needs the extra help
Slamurai Jack1 votesIt's a good way to add power to the item without making it mandatory on every tank. That's the real reason.
My Waifu Vanilla1 votesThis one. If they buff Sunfire to make its champ damage noticeable then it will become mandatory because when you get multiples on a team is is (technically) unavoidable free damage. Also, if they were to make Sunfire more champ damage centric it would HAVE to have the "only does X% to minions" clause to prevent any overlap you would inevitably cause.
Sunfire SHOULD be the minion clearing option for tanks since that is the easiest to balance place it could ever go and is a rather necessary item in that regard since it is the only item tanks can buy outside of IBG for wave clear now. (RIP Ionic Spark)
Quepha1 votesI don't think they want to make an item really good at killing champions just by standing on them but they're ok with giving tank champions the ability to clear a wave in less than half an hour.
I have a feeling that sunfire deals more damage to champions than people realize but it just isn't very flashy so it's hard to realize it.
Jungle Lux God1 votesCompare it to the other health+armor items. Deadman's Plate and Randuin's Omen both have really powerful passive/active effects for combat against champions.
Making the passive on Sunfire deal bonus damage to minions makes it compete less against DMP and Omen because it is better for minion pushing, in particular splitpushing, which is something the other two don't really help with.
Comparison to Zz'rot Portal is fair, but in reality they don't really cover the same niche. Portal helps you in pushing down a turret regardless of whether you splitpush or siege while Sunfire is better for pushing the minion wave up to the turret, but not in taking the actual turret (due to aggro issues (that should really be fixed in the item)). If you use both, you would use Sunfire to help push the wave to the turret, then use Portal to push down the turret when you get there.
The Loveless1 voteszz'rot just doesn't make me feel useful-tanky. Not saying it needs health, but maybe...further damage reduction based on the number of nearby voidlings?
Bârd1 votesZz'rot portal is better at taking towers than clearing minions.
RisenDarkKnight1 votesZ'zrot is for pushing a tower while you roam/group with your team, sunfire is for helping out low waveclear top laners.
Z'rot's does need a buff though, because banner of command just does the same job much better.
Rinky Dinky1 votesWhat the fuck did I just read
Rebonack1 votes[{quoted}](name=Lane Cancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6E9yjbVj,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-01-29T04:57:08.402+0000)
What the fuck did I just read
You just read about the glory of beetle buddies.
Do you have a problem with beetle buddies?
Paroe1 votesYou just read about the glory of beetle buddies.
Do you have a problem with beetle buddies?
Rinky Dinky1 votesNo.
Gobless
Spacesuit Spiff1 votesThis may be good for sion if he builds it (unsure i dont play him)
Spoofghoul1 votesSure its good on Sion but he does not really need it for waveclear.
Nyxceris1 votesWould the beetle buddy behave like Mals?
Silents4291 votesPretty self explanatory, I mean what else is it going to do except give tanks better wave clear?
Gentzer1 votesSunfire Cape: I want to be tanky and splitpush (in other words, I am Shen).
ZZ'Rot Portal: I don't want to splitpush, but I want my side waves pushed, but I don't like Banner of Command.
ParaBellam1 votesI think this is the right way to buff Sunfire. Most people that get it are heavy tanks that lack significant damage (if they had damage, they would just build items to scale it). If it had a % max health ratio it would be near perfect (something like 1-2% of max health to extra damage?)
Zzrot is better for placing and roaming around so it makes it a lot more independent. Sunfire would require you to be in lane.
kaltenashes1 votesWhy is Riot pushing Sunfire toward minion clearing?
because, since the release, 
was a better choice in every occasion of should i buy 
or
ModCaptainMårvelous1 votesSunfire has always been minion clearing. This is just reaffirming.
Zzrot has been more about AFK pushing and being a threat to towers. It's a side-item that works with Sunfire, not overlaps.
ahferroin71 votesZz'rot is for seiging, not minion clearing, it just happens to help with wave clear as a side effect.
Most champs that regularly get sunfire (which isn't many in high level games) do so solely for the minion clear (Like some of the people who play it on Tahm Kench) or to augment their existing AoE DoT (like Amumu or Mundo).
DeloricVI1 votesHonestly, I feel like sunfire is overlooked because it seems lackluster, and Riot is trying to find a niche use for it.
If you're a jungler, you have Cinderhulk. If you're anything but tank or bruiser, you shouldn't buy it Randuin's omen's crit damage reduction is good against the marksman meta Dead man's plate gives you increased mobility and cc Thornmail can be good because its damage scales with the enemy's AD, unless they changed it Sunfire cape... doesn't give quite a good stats and kind of does a little damage here and there... pretty lackluster Supports have other items to buy, like Frozen Heart or any of the others above
PrinceBedazzled1 votesOh my god that idea of the beetle to push minions with you is an amazing idea! i would totally buy zzrot if riot made that a new passive on it.
As for sunfire cape wave clear is all i use it for except amumu and sejuani.
Rebonack1 votesOh my god that idea of the beetle to push minions with you is an amazing idea! i would totally buy zzrot if riot made that a new passive on it.
As for sunfire cape wave clear is all i use it for except amumu and sejuani.
I know, right?
The beetle buddy would make Portal much better for general pushing needs instead of making it so heavily tilted in favor of sieging towers.
Incognonymous1 votesI think the way for Sunfire to see more play would be to have it stack with Cinderhulk. I bought Sunfire all the time as a jungler-- practically on everyone, as a matter of fact, but the release of Cinderhulk didn't eliminate that need for faster clears, it simply added an earlier way to do it at the cost of some damage.
Where do Juggernauts and Tanks see play besides Top? The jungle. Right now the name of the game is Deadman's Plate-- for a number of good reasons, but allow Sunfire to stack with Cinderhulk, buff jungle gold, and suddenly a lot of champions can now stand on their own in the jungle, and not just as second supports.
