When you think riot is being unfair.

TomA3X·Jan 31, 2015·40 votes·2,402 views

There are so many threads in balance campaigning for a nerf of one champion, or wanting a buff for another. Of course, thats what these forums are about, its fine.

But when you look at this, and see 300 upvotes on a "Nerf X into oblivion" thread. Its easy to think that Riot just doesn't listen when they give him an Attack speed nerf only in the latest patch.

What you MUST remember, is whilst 300 is a lot of people, It does not reflect the majority of the community. I mean, think about it, why are you here on the forums? Most likely to complain! If you think everything is fine and dandy, you're not here trying to defend your champion, you're out playing them. This means most people are on the forums because they have a problem, this small % is not necessarily representative of the entire player-base.

You complain at Riot for not listening to community feedback, this is not the case. If Riot changed champions based on the Hot section of Gameplay and Balance, the game would be a wreck. No two ways about it.

55 Comments

Fock Raet GumisJan 31, 201522 votes

Balancing Zed is quite simple, actually.

Keep the same damage he has while requiring Zed players to stack spells to achieve it. Increase cool-downs on all of his spells across the board. Add into his passive that if he lands spell damage [QWER] on champions, his cool-downs are decreased, and he regains his energy. If Zed lands his skill shots, he's rewarded with cool-down reduction and energy gains. If Zed misses everything, he gets nothing. If he plays too passively, his W and R cool-downs won't be reduced. If he can't reduce his escape spell cool-downs, then he can't escape as often. Skillful Zed players won't notice a difference in power, but the baddies sure will. Zed will still be a nightmare at higher ranks, but will be easy to squash at the lower ranks if Zed players suck.

Zed is now balanced.

Your welcome.

Silents429Jan 31, 20152 votes

Holy shit, having a stack system on him would be amazing.

SammystormFeb 1, 20151 votes

this is a terrible idea. It makes zed even more snowbally. He can still play safe but now if he gets a pick he can decrease his cool downs by making more picks. Reset champions have and always will be incredible snowbally and impossible to balance.

Chespin2013Feb 2, 20151 votes

this actually is such a good idea too bad ppl at riot wont even try to balance now cuz their form of "balance" and having ghostcrawler just literally is making the game unfun i know ghostcrawler is doing his job and all but seriously can we just have some fair balance when its needed

WheatloafJan 31, 20159 votes

And apparently this perfectly reasonable and civil thread deserves downvotes before it deserves comments.

TomA3XJan 31, 20153 votes

Probably shouldn't have used Zed as the example :P

SEKAIJan 31, 20155 votes

If 1 person is saying "you suck", then he is probably doing it in jest.

If 100 people are saying "you suck", then doesn't matter if it's the majority of the whole community, please do consider the chances that you really suck bad.

Same thing for forum.

wolfaxJan 31, 201517 votes

If it's 100 out of a 100,000 then it's still a statistically irrelevant number. You're in an online game with a ton of different people with different viewpoints. You're never going to get everyone to agree. Especially when most people are entitled keyboard warriors who think they know better than the people that have been paid to do this for years now.

If Riot had 100 people in the community saying "you suck" and the rest were good with what they're doing then Riot just made the best change ever.

SEKAIJan 31, 20155 votes

No answer doesn't mean they don't have one or automatically satisfied with whatever they have. You simply assumed that those who don't use forum are completely satisfied with the game. The goal is to make at least 50% people agree with the company but you can't simply count those who didn't bother to voice as in agreement with Riot, it's common sense.

Think about it this way, if you did something that can trigger 100, 500 or even a thousand people just randomly come out of nowhere and jump onto you to express their disagreement in a logical manner, it is indeed perhaps you really did something wrong.

And it doesn't take a genius to realise sometimes, the gamers know the point of interest better than the devs. A good dev will have the ability to distinguish when to or not to hear the complaints, and know the better way for both parties.

TomA3XJan 31, 20153 votes

There are unreasonable people in this world. There are more than 100 of them. When 100 unreasonable people want unreasonable things, its up to the rest of us to say no.

SEKAIJan 31, 20153 votes

You shouldn't take my example number that literally.

And why is complaining suddenly on the unreasonable side?

Being reasonable or not depends on the points being made, it is proven again and again that companies while in the business for many years, don't necessarily know the best for their games. You've seen Blizzard, Konami, Ubisoft, EA, Activision, Capcom, Riot, Sony, Microsoft hell even Nintendo and more.

Reasonable complaints should be heard, and heed if necessary, while the otherwise is disregarded it's just how it is supposed to be. Instead of just ruling every negative opinions out because the forum doesn't have a lot of user to begin with, it's just not right.

If the entire forum population is 200, 100 people complaining still means half of the people are being negative on the game, comparing the dissatisfied forum users to the entire community is highly absurd and most likely, doesn't help the game at all.

Matthias9119Jan 31, 20158 votes

People who choose to come and post on the forums are not a representative sample of the entire playerbase. Self-selection bias is a HUGE factor. Players who are unhappy/upset are way more likely to seek out somewhere to vent than happy players are.

Riot has probably 5-10 million players in NA. Even if there were 100k people reading/posting on these boards, it's something like 1-2% of the players. 100 people all saying the same thing means nothing by itself.

SEKAIJan 31, 20152 votes

That's why you should all get my point already instead of chewing on my example number.

Just saying this, if a bunch of people just suddenly appear to tell you that you suck, do consider the probably that they said so because you really suck or you did something wrong somewhere.

Matthias9119Jan 31, 20155 votes

The problem is that literally ANY change they make will piss off some number of random people. When they have 70 million+ monthly players, it's impossible to please everyone.

"Fix whatever a small number of vocal people whine about the most" would be a TERRIBLE balance philosophy.

SEKAIJan 31, 20151 votes

That is why I said earlier "A good dev will have the ability to distinguish when to or not to hear the complaints, and know the better way for both parties".

However that doesn't mean complaints shouldn't be HEARD, sure you can do nothing afterwards that's your freedom but if you simply ignore the complaint from your ONLY connection between you and the community ENTIRELY just because it doesn't have that big of a sample size, well let's just say it's a bad move. (or you can hug reddit more)

Point is, hear it, then decide what you gonna do. Simply turning off is not an option otherwise we might as well not have a forum.

JustMyBassCannonJan 31, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Point is, hear it, then decide what you gonna do. Simply turning off is not an option otherwise we might as well not have a forum.

...they do that.

Would you like Riot to personally write messages to the people whose opinions they heard, but willingly ignored for the sake of balance, instead of letting the patch notes tell them?

Matthias9119Jan 31, 20152 votes

They've never said they ignore their forums (and Reddit has all the same problems), just that it's not the only source for feedback that they have. Probably not even the most important source, since the VAST MAJORITY of players never go to those places.

Good game balance is not a popularity contest.

TomA3XJan 31, 20152 votes

But this is what I'm saying, A complaint looks genuine enough, but Even with 300 upvotes, It still doesn't mean it is what everybody thinks. Zed is a great example, because if you click Hot, there isn't 5 posts without one complaining about Zed. Nobody is going for Zed.

As a riot employee, It would be easy to just think "Oh, this is what our entire playerbase want". But its not, It is likely just the people complaining on the forums, the rest of the players don't bother.

TomA3XJan 31, 20151 votes

I just said it like that because it had a nice ring to it. Complaints can be reasonable, sure, but that doesn't mean they represent the majority view. In the case of the example we used, they are an extreme minority.

SammystormFeb 1, 20151 votes

A lot of people don't agree with those threads. However those people avoid those threads because people in them will just down vote to oblivion. So a lot of people that disagree with threads avoid it completely just because it is pretty pointless when people don't even want a discussion they just circle jerk the same regurgitated "balance" points.

TomA3XJan 31, 20151 votes

100 people is a tiny proportion of the League community. Of course there are going to be people who want certain changes, but over 67 million people play this game a month. Riot can't balance for the 100 who got stomped 'that one time'.

I'm not saying certain things shouldn't happen, I'm just trying to explain why It feels like you don't have a voice.

It's just like voting. :D

RoyaiChaosFeb 1, 20151 votes

According to your logic, Ahri is complete trash right now.

MãgeJan 31, 20153 votes

Thank you! I don't think Zed is an issue at all, and I voice this all the time in the Zed frustration threads. He actually has more counterplay than the majority of assassins.

TomA3XJan 31, 20153 votes

Yeah, nobody is willing to listen to counterplay, don't even bother. Spent the day arguing with someone here, you'll just get downvoted.

kitcat300Jan 31, 20151 votes

I was actually doing pretty well against a zed using the "nerfed" Ahri.

I probably would have won if the enemy Shaco didn't bring a tent XD.

TomA3XJan 31, 20151 votes

It's certainly possible to do well against one, you've just gotta learn his tricks. I wrote a short essay on countering zed, but It got downvoted into oblivion, so I deleted it.

ZmuecatFeb 1, 20153 votes

If Riot isn't being unfair, it seems like they are.

It feels like they approach champions differently. Look at the recent mana regen changes, the jungle gold cost increase, or the removal of DFG, then look at what happens to Zed or Lee Sin. Hell, look at Zed and Lee Sin opposed to individual champions in some cases.

Riot seems to approach certain champions with the intent to bring them into a reasonable place by hitting them with small, what feels like carefully thought out changes, while other they seem to punch right in the face, and then kick if the champion tries to stand back up. Often when champions effected by Riots latter style of changes are called into question, they can't even come up with anything really reasonable to say.

I love the game, but their balancing team is NOT fair.

TomA3XFeb 1, 20151 votes

It does seem like there is a different balance team for certain champions.

kitcat300Jan 31, 20152 votes

I know they are only a small group out of millions of players who still like the game. But when the front page is ONLY complaints and hate threads at riot, it's easy to forget that.

PokladnicaZlaJan 31, 20152 votes

Actually people aren´t playing,they are abusing X-champion right now,while other people(me& others) are sick of said X-champ.

NOTE:I used X-champ,because this is a correnction of what you said.They aren´t just playing X,they are abusing X as long as possible for easy wins. :)))

D1rtFarmerFeb 1, 20152 votes

what you're missing from the concept here is.. thats 300 people who went out their way to read the post, who cared enough to respond in and 300 people who decided to give it an upvote. do u read everything ? and if so, do you stop to upvote it? I can bet that if they sent out a poll to the nation. if Zed is op you would see alot more than that.

TomA3XFeb 1, 20151 votes

Yes but, who are those 300? They aren't zed mains. They're people who are here to complain. My point isn't that they're wrong, my point is stop hating on Riot for going with what seems like the wrong decision. Because its likely you are the minority.

Mooing KevFeb 1, 20152 votes

Riots attack speed nerf on zed is a way of saying to suck it up and quit complaining cuz they aint listening to all the mage mains who got stomped by a zed.

Arcade AndrewJan 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There are so many threads in balance campaigning for a nerf of one champion, or wanting a buff for another. Of course, thats what these forums are about, its fine.

But when you look at this, and see 300 upvotes on a "Nerf Zed into oblivion" thread. Its easy to think that Riot just doesn't listen when they give him an Attack speed nerf only in the latest patch.

What you MUST remember, is whilst 300 is a lot of people, It does not reflect the majority of the community. I mean, think about it, why are you here on the forums? Most likely to complain! If you think everything is fine and dandy, you're not here trying to defend your champion, you're out playing them.

You complain at Riot for not listening to community feedback, this is not the case. If Riot changed champions based on the Hot section of Gameplay and Balance, the game would be a wreck. No two ways about it.

You have to consider though that out of all the players who go on forums or dont go on forums AT LEAST ONE of them is smarter than Riots balance team and knows what they are talking about/ Is just as good as the balance team and can see flaws In it, example: say riot buffed teemos shrooms to doing true damage that scales with his AP + the burn is now in poison damage over five seconds that scales with AP now lets say they changed teemos passive from stealth to something where for every auto attack on a poisioned champion it reduced their magic res and armor by 10 for 3 seconds capped at -50mr/armor Q W and E stay the same

NOW LETS SAY IN THE SAME PATCH AS THIS TEEMO buff riot did the following

Removed all tenacity from the game and isntead adding an ingame item that makes you immune to slows upon activation with a 150 second cooldown and the active only lasts 10-20 secs

removed red trinket in lieu of making the raptor smite bonus longer and now grants vision of shrooms/traps/wards ect

and removed lets say oh item 3102 for being "too snowbally"

if riot did that YOU KNOW teemo would be instabanned in ranked and be op and the community would be outraged because now teemo is always picked and carrying meanwhile MR took a huge nerf and vision took a huge nerf to controlling his shrooms even less now

TomA3XJan 31, 20152 votes

Yeah, hypothetically if this did happen, there would be an uproar. Part of the issue here is a change like that would never be passed. You seem to forget that Riot play their own game. If they make something broken, they know it a long time before we do. Most of the time its just knowing how to fix it. They'd look at his Pick/Ban and realise he was looking suspiciously like Kassadin

Before long he'd be nerfed again. The community has a large input, but you only see the negatives here.

Edit- Just remembered I saw a post on here upvoted which said that Pwyff should lose his job because of what he posted on the Zed section of Patch Notes 5.21. Its shit like that that shows you, there are plenty of very angry people here.

Killer of PorosJan 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, hypothetically if this did happen, there would be an uproar. Part of the issue here is a change like that would never be passed. You seem to forget that Riot play their own game. If they make something broken, they know it a long time before we do. Most of the time its just knowing how to fix it. They'd look at his Pick/Ban and realise he was looking suspiciously like

Before long he'd be nerfed again. The community has a large input, but you only see the negatives here.

Edit- Just remembered I saw a post on here upvoted which said that Pwyff should lose his job because of what he posted on the Zed section of Patch Notes 5.21. Its shit like that that shows you, there are plenty of very angry people here.

Is Pwyff even on the balance team? I just thought he was the guy that edited the patch notes.

TomA3XFeb 1, 20151 votes

Don't think so, but he still gets the rap because he's the one who takes the time to write the funny patch notes.

PoisonedPeaceJan 31, 20151 votes

The problem is that not every single player uses the boards or reddit to communicate with rito. Some don't communicate with rito at all. So when the top threads on the boards get 200-400 upvotes, or reddit gets 1000+ upvotes, that is the best representation rito has of community feedback. They have to extrapolate that data with the same percentages, and when they do that I'm sure they use statistical analysis to calculate deviation and variance.

Nucleophilic atkJan 31, 20151 votes

rito is not being fair. They won't answer me on the merch shop update.

Get RekkktFeb 1, 20151 votes

so.... if they're not going by forums...wheres all the people saying not to nerf him? (using your example)

if you got say (hypothetical numbers) 500 people on the forums and say 400 upvote nerf said champion

you think they went up to everyone playing the game and asked em what they think? no lol but there's forums with hundreds of people saying to nerf him

point being, they didnt ask everyone their feelings on zed but alot of people came on here saying he is deserving a nerf.... if your playing the numbers game you lose till you get those people on here saying not to nerf zed...or had an in game survey, not just walking up to coworkers or some pro's who main him and judge it 10>500 because they're friends/co-workers/your favorite pro/people who main em...

get my point?

Matthias9119Feb 1, 20153 votes

so.... if they're not going by forums...wheres all the people saying not to nerf him? (using your example)

They're playing the game and not whining on the forums, mostly. Self-selection bias means that players who are angry/frustrated are WAY more likely to post here (or on Reddit, etc.) than ones who are happy and think things are okay.

you think they went up to everyone playing the game and asked em what they think? no lol

Actually they do send out surveys to players on a regular basis. They also get feedback from the PBE, pro players, their internal playtests of possible changes, and probably other sources.

Riot has a LOT of internal data about champion popularity and matchups/winrates/bans/etc. If it's clear something is fine in terms of actual in-game performance, they're not going to knee-jerk nerf it just because a lot of people whine about it (see: Lee Sin, whose biggest issue since the nerfs last year is that he's a safe first pick in LCS).

The Red WardenFeb 1, 20151 votes

So what? Should people just never say anything? What you are suggesting is that Riot should never take anything people say into consideration, because they are just a "minority". That the rest of the community actually thinks that what they did was correct. There are many people who think Zed needs more nerfs but don't use the boards. Just ask your teamates every game and see how many respond "yes he does".

If Riot actually were to follow that idea, any reason to use the boards to argue your point about the game is taken away. Why would people even comment on game balance anymore, your point would not be taken into considerance at all because they are a 'minority' that doesn't matter.

People will complain when they don't agree with something. Are they always right? Fu-- NO!

Do they have a right to complain? Hell yes.

TomA3XFeb 1, 20151 votes

Did i say that? I don't think so?

I'm not campaigning for a Zed buff. I'm trying to stop Innocent Riot employees from getting shit. There are some seriously salty posts on the boards, answering those as a Riot employee can't be fun. A large amount of people here are confused as to why stuff that is top on the boards isn't happening instantly, I'm simply explaining why.

Ace Access Feb 1, 20151 votes

why don't Riot just e-mail us a survey on which champs, mechanics etc we think needs fixing the most and why along with a lengthy list of check boxes to fill on what we think this way they can turn it into charts and decide what the majority think at least

TaylorGaylorFeb 1, 20151 votes

I highly support the OP and everything it stands for. People who come on this forum to complain try and get a buff for X champion: Get over yourself. You're wrong.

TomA3XFeb 1, 20151 votes

I think we both know thats not my point. I'm not saying they're all wrong. I have seen way too much hate on riot employees offering their 2 Cents on posts. And It needs to stop, people need to consider the possiblity that they aren't the majority decision, even though it would seem like they are on the forums.

BorblandFeb 1, 20151 votes

300 is surely not the majority of the community.

But, most of LoL's forum community are involved and nice players. I don't think the 12 years old flamer kids who only plays Riven (Yes, this is a stereotype), comes to the forum, except maybe for a "Urogt brokken fucgking roit" thread

300 is alot, for the forum community it's alot, without counting the downvotes, which is diminuishing the amount of upvotes, so it's actually more then 300 upvotes.

FuaztinFeb 1, 20151 votes

So you think there's absolutely nothing wrong with gutting mana regen and leaving energy champs alone? Zed is the outlier because of the way he is built and the range of his attacks. Just go think about that and maybe play the game before you type up something dumb.

TomA3XFeb 1, 20151 votes

I think you read a different post to the one I wrote, if you fancy copy pasting where I said that, that'd be dandy.