Why does everything in this game have to scale like crazy?

Raoul··38 votes·1,641 views

I mean... remember the old days, beta, when we had like... Ap scaling... and well... that was it?

Mages were the bursters, Marksmen were the DPS, Tanks were... well, tanky.

Characters were able to be designed around basic numbers, that stayed the same during the duration of the whole game. That meant not every damn character did insane damage.

Therefore Champions could have skills that made them be unique.

I mean, look at Beta Rammus. Hell yeah, he got shitton of armor and magic resistance and had a 3s taunt, but that was his deal. He didnt do no crazy shit damage like tanks these days coughSEJUANIcough, he had other reasons why he was a threat. Loosing your DPS for a full 3 seconds, that was mean. But it was why you tried to take the character down. He didnt kill anything, but he was still a threat, and he could be like that, because static numbers allowed the balancing team to actually work around stuff.

Or look at Beta/Season 1 Tristana.

Then came the AD ratios... Oh hell, the AD ratios... They were like.. the beginning of the end. Suddendly, every skill had to scale, making ADCs start to burst the hell out of you.

And look what we have today, fuck, we have armor and health scaling into damage...

And whats the result? Everyone in this game is a damn damage dealer, and it seems like giving champions tons of damage is the only way RIOT knows to make them efect the game.

Where are the unique features? Where are the others reasons to focus a tank, other than "He will kill you if not!"

And dont get me started on crit chance... Why exactly do we allow ADCs to just double their damage while still building a standard DPS Build?

This is actually one part... maybe the only part... that I would love RIOT to learn from DotA. No scaling at all. There are controle mages, they stay controle mages, they dont become nuke controle mages. You want a nuke mage? Pick a nuke mage. But then, thats your role. You get nuke, but sacrifice CC. You want a DPS? Ok. You get a DPS. Your abilities support your DPS. Crit? No sir. Theres one item that gives you a 15% chance to deal 175% dmg. Thats it. You wanted Damage per second, not Burst per second. But Items that support DPS, be creative. You want a Tank. Go ahead. You are a tank, and you are either very good at controling a fight or debuffing/disrupting the enemy. You get focused because you are really annoying for the enemy team. You want an Assassin? Awesome, YOU are the one who gets crit, through your abilities. Or you get the big finisher moves, so you can swing in and finish that ADC out.

You get ALOT of creative freedom with your Champions and Items, when you dont have to account for crazy scalings, that basically allow only ONE way to build: The one that maximises your dmg output.

I mean... I know its way too late for that. You cant change the whole game. YOu have your powercreep running, and honestly, I dont really think it is still able to get it under controle...

Which kinda makes the whole thread pointless now that I think about it... A screw it, I wrote all this, i will just make the post anyway, dont really want it all to go to waste...

So here we have it, pointless thread, mourning about something that is way too far gone to ever be reversed... Spilled milk and so... (is that a thing in english? It is in german...)

42 Comments

Ben Sharpio30 votes

the difference between "normal" champions and meta champions is absurd. that's the problem i think

SEKAI2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Corsair Sion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=60vb4Kqv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-09-04T22:40:17.175+0000)

the difference between "normal" champions and meta champions is absurd. that's the problem i think

Meta champ is generally picked about 5-10 times the rate of "normal" champ iirc. Just looking at it is enough to say that "fun" is clearly not the only thing here and that there's something is pretty wrong at work; ie the power disparity between the meta and the "normal" pick is perhaps just too significant.

Noblewind3 votes

That comes in large part from the fact that a lot of champions are fairly similar (low cooldown damage abilities), abilities scale with item stats (most items are stat driven and little else). That reality makes the meta very dependant on stat-checking. Current runes/masteries just make that worse with obvious synergies.

Hopefully new runes will help this situation, because they will be gameplay driven, not stat driven, and each rune will have a far larger list of champions that could use it

Snake Prince2 votes

Picking " normal champions " on the lane they are intended is now considered as off meta lul . Before off meta was like playing Blitz crit top .

PePsiLemoNN7 votes

Once again people acting like beta was some balance heaven or something LUL.

Sdars3 votes

It really wasn't, but to have this state after 8 years is ridiculous.

Spank the Fox2 votes

How long did you think it took Dota to be balanced?

Hint: longer than 8 years

Sdars3 votes

implying dota is balanced

Besides, arguing that some companies are worse doesn't excuse riot from doing what they should.

Spank the Fox2 votes

But you were implying that they should've had this game balanced within 8 years when the other MOBA with a longer existence took a good deal of time to reach """"balance""""

Balance is subjective. There is nothing ridiculous about the current balance in regards to the game's life span.

Sdars1 votes

I was implying exactly that. There's a reason memes like "small indie company" and "the technology isn't there yet" exist. Like I said, there shouldn't be an argument of comparison between the 2 companies, or at least it should be a negligible one. What matters is what the company should do, not what the others are doing.

Balance is not subjective. It CAN be situational, but it's still objective. What's subjective is the experience, and there is where I think the biggest problem lies. Then again, it's subjective, and rather extensive, so I won't try to convince you.

I'll just end by noting that being subjective doesn't mean it can't be made better in general.

Ahristocats2 votes

you played it?

because from stats you can get in every single competition it looks pretty much balanced

Sdars1 votes

Not much. Only played 90 hours.

I don't think the stats agree with that statement, but I guess it depends on standards.

Regardless, something I didn't mention but that is extremely important is that balance isn't even the main problem, as things can be balanced but still be unfair/badly designed.

I know that's subjective, but there's still objective ideals that aren't being followed, and I certainly think Riot has a lot of double standards when it comes to their ideals.

FCJAAAAGOOOO2 votes

{quoted}

Once again people acting like beta was some balance heaven or something LUL.

well it wasn't balance hell

DuskDaUmbreon3 votes

Two words, four letters: AP Yi.

FCJAAAAGOOOO1 votes

{quoted}

Two words, four letters: AP Yi.

BelYieve it or not, there was counterplay to that. Granted it partially had to do with your team not having any baddies.

Hypercarry Yi however was always a major threat...30+ minutes in...like hypercarries are supposed to be.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

One word: lulu. Besides AP YI wasn't even that broken like people act nowadays i guess that's mostly because a lot of you guys didn't even play back then and just meme around with no clue what was actually happening. Besides ONE broken champ compared to currently 20 must bans. Seems like a reasonable comparison.

PePsiLemoNN2 votes

Jax tanking fountain laser , Yi 1shotting teams , 6 sunfire Eve and 15 seconds TF ult and all that stuff you see in youtube videos sure was nice.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Actually, it pretty much was...

AirKingNeo5 votes

item 3504 Scales shields in three different ways. I personally think giving enchanter items free +% Heal/Shield power was a huge mistake of powercreep.

AlienPrimate4 votes

I would still like to know where all the censer hate came from. I built it every single game since March and often had to explain to people how it even works because most people had never seen it before. It was the same item from then until its recent nerf and no one built it, complained about it, or even knew what it was.

I'm just going to guess that some pro built it in one game and all the sheep followed mindlessly like they always do.

AirKingNeo3 votes

Because the item is broken? Why are you complaining about me complaining about a broken item?

I already knew the item was broken.

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

It's not free if they're still having to pay for it...

AirKingNeo3 votes

If an item gains a stat, while already gold efficient, it's free.

LordGeovanni2 votes

like crit items

I Do Pew Pew Pew3 votes

Yeah scalings are just awesome. Like playing against MF, I was same level as her, not behind, we had about ~230 ad, but MF with her Q without jumping, Idk, maybe that was crit, dealed half of my hp with just one Q, while i have to hit for about 3-5 basics to deal that damage, with almost same amount of AD, so is that normal? I understand if that would be jumped Q from minion,champion , but that was DIRECT 1x1, 600-700dmg, so what scales is that?

StairCasexd2 votes

[{quoted}](name=NOO NICKNAME,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=60vb4Kqv,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-09-05T09:32:03.521+0000)

Yeah scalings are just awesome. Like playing against MF, I was same level as her, not behind, we had about ~230 ad, but MF with her Q without jumping, Idk, maybe that was crit, dealed half of my hp with just one Q, while i have to hit for about 3-5 basics to deal that damage, with almost same amount of AD, so is that normal? I understand if that would be jumped Q from minion,champion , but that was DIRECT 1x1, 600-700dmg, so what scales is that?

Well a lot of mfs power is tied to her Q and R since her AAs should be laughable in comparison to other adcs more noticeable in the late game (why she doesn't go crit and goes lethality instead). Plus if she went lethality, she says lol to your armour and Q ends up doing a crap ton of damage but like I said, after q and r are down she kinda meh. MF is a unique case.

DuskDaUmbreon3 votes

In compensation, she does less damage in team fights (barring her ult, of course). Her power was pushed out of autos (Most Marksmen have attack speed and AA amps, while MF only has an amp on her first passive and a...kinda weak amp on her W) into abilities (Q through a minion, high damage on ult, etc.)

I'm pretty sure her Q crit. It's essentially an auto that bounces. You're looking at a crit and her passive applying at the same time.

An Undead brat3 votes

I don's agree with only one thing:

You want a nuke mage? Pick a nuke mage. But then, thats your role. You get nuke, but sacrifice CC.

Mages are each very unique, because CC abilities have many factors you can use to balance them (duration, units affected, the way it's applied, ...). There is usually a huge problem to actually say which mage identifies as what, look at Veigar 's cage, or Lissandra whole... And if they have more CC, they are often weaker to compensate (Zyra - see her E, Syndra 's QE is like that, but on HUGE steroids) and their damage already pays for it. You can't just say one mage is nuke, the other is control, one should deal no damage and the other should have no CC, because that would suck the variety you are complaining is lacking already.

An Enemy Sutando3 votes

The worst part about all this is that we have to wait until worlds is over because riot considers Stoneplate -> R combo on Cho to be a super huge outplay apparently.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

That's because they don't want to vastly shift a champion's interactions literately the patch before Worlds.

An Enemy Sutando1 votes

Fair enough but it still doesn't change how shitty balance this patch is.

PrinceOfStorms2 votes

It's a bigger outplay than an ADC right clicking you and chunking you for the same percentage of your health.

Cho's Stoneplate -> R combo can be done (and have it actually kill people) around that time.

Cowseed2 votes

It's somewhat ironic that this post complains about damage pretty much being able to scale off anything but the champ that has the largest range of scalings does pretty much some of the smallest damage output from all the champions - Ornn

I'm glad that the only damage buff there giving him is just a conversion of his w damage to max health damage (truth be told i though it was already this).

NineTailedMystic2 votes

This is actually one part... maybe the only part... that I would love RIOT to learn from DotA. No scaling at all.

No, one of the things I despise about Dota is how abilities don't really scale. Which isn't entirely true because one or two items give Spell Amp plus Intelligence gives a small amount of Spell Amp, but still barely scale compared to League. It makes base damage outrageous and everyone gets strong Auto Attacks because everyone gets Damage from their main stat.

Mages should be the only class who gets strong damage scalings on their abilities because they rely on them. Maybe AD Assassins too, but I think AD scaling on abilities is dumb because they already have strong Autos from building AD.

Automated Riven1 votes

The problem is that if you removed ad scaling from abilities then you would have shit champions.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

And autoattacks in itself are pretty useless. Every jax, jarvan can easily obtain 250-300 AD and their autos mean jackshit. They all live from their ability damage.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Yea, and APs have like 80 AD. Even if it doesn't mean as much to a non-ADC, I'd rather have strong auto attacks than not.

xxxMadLionxxx1 votes

Bard

Saianna1 votes

Still, nothing can beat ADC building damage, getting all the defensive stuff cause powercreeped items much and then cry on forums that he still dies 1v5.

This game... My best and worst years spent..

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Because if it didn't then defense would be the go to for everyone. Ever played that game TOME? "Champs" had nearly no scalings and items didn't offer much in the way of damage making building damage effectively worthless and therefore to do damage you'd want to just stack health so you could live longer to do more damage.

That's what happens when scalings don't exist, defensive itemization becomes meta. TOME didn't last too long for a reason.

Also realize that DotA does in fact have scaling. It doesn't have as much individual champion scaling sure, but in the items there is abysmally ridiculous amounts of overloaded damage for them to scale with.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

The change of hands in riot's corporation have really hurt the game as a whole; trying to make it 'flashy' for tv just makes it boring & frustrating to play.

Also don't forget mobility creep & gold gains playing factors! Used to not see tower dives till 10 minutes in, now days it's more like 3 minutes; snowballing champions just need an item or two to bulldoze their opponent thanks to the minion auto-push 'feature'.

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