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In what way is PD Mallet Yasuo healthy for the game?

THE RlVER KlNG··27 votes·4,007 views

It had been a while since I had played versus a Yasuo top....I was a Yorick.

It was a veritable hell. Granted, Yorick may not be an end-all Yasuo counter, but him being a Juggernaut should count for something.

Just endless poke with Qs, dashing around, E-knockup-E out so I can't retaliate. Gets PD like fifteen minutes in and I am no longer allowed to fight him, what with the reduced damage and all. I wouldn't even mind not being able to 1v1 a champion top its just that Yasuo has all the tools to get into my face and force a fight, and chase me down if I try to run away. I won't even go into his bullshit shield that is incredibly hard to deal with as a melee, which is a post unto itself. He blocks my E with Windwall and just dashes out of my W wall, so I have little hope of ever forcing a trade in the first few levels where I might have a chance of fighting him.

It's ten times worse once he buys Frozen Mallet because I am no longer allowed to run away. He will perma-slow me, E onto me, knock me up and then ult. His crits then ignore the armor I buy (I even rushed Randuin's first item, fat load of nothing that seemd to do me), and if I'm getting ganked as well there is no escape. He can sit there and hold his knockup or just aggressively dash onto me and do it melee range, and its utter hell. There's even the bullshit thing where his ult tries to place him outside of tower range. I can't step up to CS, I can't hope to fight back because PD tips it into his favor, and I have to be a sitting duck under tower most of the time and fair game to gank. If you gank him, he just dashes all around a minion wave and charges up his Q to either knock you up and run away, or ult and get a double kill.

He then transitions into either a skirmishing god that knocks everyone up and ults, or just another cancerous splitpush that requires 3 people, each with hard CC, to stop. He can then get an IE-BT-GA and literally become unkillable. It's incredibly toxic and absolutely no fun to play against.

I'm not necessarily saying Yasuo himself needs straight nerfs, but something needs to be done about him rushing PD and Mallet top lane and becoming oppressive and unmanageable. It sucks the fun out of a game and ruins what little impact you can hope to have as a top laner.

46 Comments

TNHA Baritone11 votes

Agreed. Its literally hell if you're melee

Variks the Loyal10 votes

Yasuo is an issue. With that build, he can easily fight 3 or 4 people at once, even if they're on the same level as him item-wise.

Part of it is the guaranteed crits. PD and IE give Yasuo 100% critical strike chance. Combine that with Life Steal from BT and Maw and he's constantly healing for an extremely large amount, especially since Life Steal works off of his Q. Frozen Mallet just gives him a fuckton of health (Second highest health on any item, sans Warmogs), and makes it so no one can run from him. The bests duelists in the game wouldn't be able to kill Yasuo like this.

Something needs to be done. Remove his double crit or remove his free shield. Make his Q no longer count as an AA for effects like Life Steal. And the free armor pen on his ult is also bull - Tanks are supposed to counter Assassins and Skirmishers, and the armor pen on his ult makes it so he counters tanks easily.

doiminat0r36001 votes

I say remove his free shield and lower the time he is able to hold his tornado. His double crit is essential to him otherwise he will be building items that give HP and AD instead of crit and AS. This itemization of AD and HP tied with his decent base damage means Yas will be literally unstoppable bruiser that wasn't meant to be one.

If you remove his shield and give him 100 more HP, he will be able to be traded fairly at early levels (100HP shield) and will not be such a pain to deal with late game with a shield that blocks 500 damage (almost all the damage if you think about it).

Anidan4 votes

I sorta want to see what would happen if the Boards had control of one single patch. Just one.

My bet is that that patch would be remembered, but not for good reasons.

Btw, this isn't aimed at your comment in specific, it just kinda triggered the thought. Your post isn't really bad or anything, it just, as I mentioned, triggered the thought.

50000000000000001 votes

That would make for an interesting M&G post

Project Sleeky2 votes

Patch 7.3:

Vayne: Q damage removed Stealth duration removed Attack damage buff removed W damage removed Removed from champion select

Yasuo: Disabled from game

Aatrox: Everytime he is picked a 2 hour long laughtrack plays in background of game

Blitzcrank: Arms replaced with spatulas so he can't stick to anyone

Singed: Intended role switched to "support"

doiminat0r36001 votes

If the boards had control of a single patch, the game would be either the most imbalanced thing because all the champions ever seen by any boards memeber that even seems remotely unfair would be changed. Syndra would be removed, Yorick would get new skins, Yasuo would get completely gutted and his windwall would be damageable, Vayne would have her Q scaling removed, etc. Its a really funny but bad idea.

JustMonika132 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo is an issue. With that build, he can easily fight 3 or 4 people at once, even if they're on the same level as him item-wise.

Part of it is the guaranteed crits. PD and IE give Yasuo 100% critical strike chance. Combine that with Life Steal from BT and Maw and he's constantly healing for an extremely large amount, especially since Life Steal works off of his Q. Frozen Mallet just gives him a fuckton of health (Second highest health on any item, sans Warmogs), and makes it so no one can run from him. The bests duelists in the game wouldn't be able to kill Yasuo like this.

Something needs to be done. Remove his double crit or remove his free shield. Make his Q no longer count as an AA for effects like Life Steal. And the free armor pen on his ult is also bull - Tanks are supposed to counter Assassins and Skirmishers, and the armor pen on his ult makes it so he counters tanks easily.

In the words of Trin "His double crit passive is what balances him the most" It dictates his build, and tells the players to build at least two squishy items (your Zeal item of choice and IE) and makes Yasuo shy away from shit like BC and Ravenous Hydra and having another generic skirmisher build. You saw the issues a no crit Yasuo brought back when Frozen Force ran rampant. It doesn't matter if Riot removes the double crit passive and keeps some incentive to build crit, Yasuo will build the damage/tanky items instead of the squishy Crit items because he's a melee carry that needs to stay in the thick of things in order to deal damage.

His shield, again, helps him live as a melee carry that needs to stay in the middle of fights to maximize damage. Yasuo properly pays for it for having no MR growth whatsoever (one of the only two melees in the game without MR growth), minimizing the impact against spellcasters, arguably the ones most affected by it. Buff his stats to make up for removing it? That opens the gate for another tank Yasuo.

Suggested Q nerf I agree with.

Tanks aren't supposed to counter Skirmishers. Skirmishers are supposed to deal high amounts of sustained damage to ALL POSSIBLE TARGETS, as stated in the Class update page. All Skirmishers have ways to deal with tanks, and all of them minus Yasuo have their tank-shredding power ALWAYS. Fiora has her passive and ult. Riven has her passive. Ekko has his passive and W passive. Jax is Jax and has his passive on ult. Yasuo just has a 15-second buff. No, his passive is not enough to help him deal with tanks. If so, ADCs wouldn't have to build LW to maximize damage.

"But Yasuo can just build LW!" True... but again he usually needs to build some defensive items to live in the fray. ADCs have the range advantage, will always have the range advantage even if they're apparently currently trash. A typical Yasuo build is Two crit items, Lifesteal or Frozen Mallet, and two defensive items. A full AD Yasuo is extremely easy to kill unless he's ridiculously ahead for whatever reason.

PermabannedGaren6 votes

"Dude why is it that when I go 1/9/1 on a champion Yasuo counters he easily kills me?"

You had two complete items (counting boots). The Yasuo had four complete items and was working on what I assume to be his BT. He had three levels on you.

Feed less and you might be able to handle him. Yasuo countering you does not excuse you for feeding him.

THE RlVER KlNG3 votes

It also helps the Rek'Sai was always top.......Of course I didn't do well that game - I got beaten by the permaslow-knockup-mobile monster called top Yasuo. He zoned me away from CS and I couldn't fight or run away from him. Are you blaming me for getting camped and forced away from CS? No need to be so aggressive.

This post is saying that Yasuo is oppressive when he buys those items, which synergize too well with his kit. I felt helpless and could never fight or run away from him. Maybe you should try playing against it bud.

PermabannedGaren3 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5yKgn3so,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-01-08T20:09:46.412+0000)

It also helps the Rek'Sai was always top.......

Then your Rek'sai got Yasuo fed and he made good use of his lead? Stop being a hater then.

Of course I didn't do well that game - I got beaten by the permaslow-knockup-mobile monster called top Yasuo.

Girlish whining about the champion instead of thinking about how you could have played better. You will continue to feed Yasuo.

Make no mistake though, Yasuo is one of Yorick's hardest match-ups. I don't whine like a little girl when I get spanked as Tryndamere by Teemo top (a FAR harder match-up), or when I play pretty much any juggernaut versus Quinn. This is because I am a real man and accept that, if the enemy plays at least as well as me, there is no potential to win a losing match-up. That's why it's a losing match-up.

He zoned me away from CS and I couldn't fight or run away from him. Are you blaming me for getting camped and forced away from CS? No need to be so aggressive.

Champions that counter your champion tend to zone your champion from CS.

A competent Darius would zone a Yasuo from CS. Should Yasuo players complain about Darius being broken? What about Irelia, an even harder Yasuo match-up? Or Renekton?

This post is saying that Yasuo is oppressive when he buys those items, which synergize too well with his kit. I felt helpless and could never fight or run away from him. Maybe you should try playing against it bud.

You couldn't have fought or run away from a Tryndamere who built shiv into ionian's and black cleaver either. You couldn't have fought or run from a Fiora who built hydra into cleaver. You could't have fought or run from a Master Yi with (assuming a top lane build) a bloodrazor and blade of the ruined king.

A fed skirmisher can not be handled one on one. They are largely the best duelists in the entire game, and part of what makes this the case is that they can force duels. It doesn't help that you were playing a fat immobile fuck like Yorick as well.

If you fall behind as Yorick and your laning opponent is a champion with excellent 1v1 chase potential, you are probably going to feed.

Would it comfort you if I told you that Yasuo didn't need to build PD into mallet to be able to easily kill and catch you if he was snowballing as hard as he was?

Like, in what world do you go 1/9/1 as an immobile short-range champion and expect to be able to be safe, lol?

Funnily enough, Yorick would probably smash Yasuo 1v1 with equal items as the game goes on.

But you guys weren't equal. He was far stronger.

THE RlVER KlNG3 votes

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to prove here. You're berating me for losing a lane in which you yourself described as unwinnable.

My post is about how obnoxious and game-altering bruiser Yasuo is, and how unfair it is to play against. You coming on and defending champions that are tanky, mobile damage dealers who can permaslow with one item is the antithesis to what I am trying to say: namely, that they are inherently bad for the game. No champion should be oppressively mobile, with high damage, excellent CC, and strong utility and defensive capabilities that only increases with the items he/she buys.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5yKgn3so,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-08T21:33:40.335+0000)

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to prove here. You're berating me for losing a lane in which you yourself described as unwinnable.

I'm berating you for coming onto the boards and whining about it, and for seeming to think you were entitled to win it.

My post is about how obnoxious and game-altering bruiser Yasuo is, and how unfair it is to play against. You coming on and defending champions that are tanky, mobile damage dealers who can permaslow with one item is the antithesis to what I am trying to say: namely, that they are inherently bad for the game. No champion should be oppressively mobile, with high damage, excellent CC, and strong utility and defensive capabilities that only increases with the items he/she buys.

item 3046 item 3022 item 3006 item 3031 item 3072 item 3026

This is not a bruiser build. This is a carry build, with only two items slanted more for defense than offense. It is slightly more slanted towards defense than Vayne's build, who gets a shiv instead of frozen mallet, but Yasuo is still statistically more likely to die despite this being his meta build because he is, you guessed it, melee.

Yasuo with this build is not tanky. He also doesn't have "excellent CC and strong utility". A champion like Nautilus has excellent CC, a champion like Lulu has strong utility (she also has better CC than Yasuo but that's neither here nor there). Ivern and arguably Poppy (arguable in the sense that it's arguable whose W is better utility, she has more CC) have better CC and utility than Yasuo. Yasuo just has the most of both in the skirmisher class (other than Ekko I guess), but is also pretty easily the weakest duelist and splitpusher of the class. He also frankly does overall less damage than most of them do. He's the team fight melee carry.

JustMonika131 votes

{quoted}

I'm berating you for coming onto the boards and whining about it, and for seeming to think you were entitled to win it.

item 3046 item 3022 item 3006 item 3031 item 3072 item 3026

Yasuo just has the most of both in the skirmisher class (other than Ekko I guess), but is also pretty easily the weakest duelist and splitpusher of the class. He also frankly does overall less damage than most of them do. He's the team fight melee carry.

Saying Yasuo is a weaker duelist than his fellow Skirmishers, especially with PD reigning supreme, is a bit too much.

Then again, Im in bronze MMR where people (including me) have no idea what to do and am one of those assholes that takes Exhaust on Yasuo pretty much every game.

Also, Skirmisher duels are pretty hype. Definitely my favorite duels/lane matchups, with Yasuo vs Fiora being my favorite, as either of them.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

{quoted}

Saying Yasuo is a weaker duelist than his fellow Skirmishers, especially with PD reigning supreme, is a bit too much.

Then again, Im in bronze MMR where people (including me) have no idea what to do and am one of those assholes that takes Exhaust on Yasuo pretty much every game.

Also, Skirmisher duels are pretty hype. Definitely my favorite duels/lane matchups, with Yasuo vs Fiora being my favorite, as either of them.

Well, let's look at the list of skirmishers besides Yasuo.

Fiora Riven Tryndamere Master Yi Jax Ekko

Of these, the only champions I know Yasuo beats in a duel late game are Riven (who does beat him early and probably mid game, but it's not too one-sided with room for outplay on both sides) and Ekko (AP champions dueling lul). He MIGHT beat Fiora. I personally doubt it.

Tryndamere he can only potentially beat with exhaust. He still probably loses. Tryndamere does more damage and is effectively far tankier, and is frankly even stickier one on one than Yasuo is if he builds CDR. A five second CD E when he has 100% crit chance is effectively inescapable.

Yasuo has very little room to outplay a Master Yi late game. Yi's DPS is the highest in the game, and he will shred through Yasuo before he has his third Q stacked up.

Jax is tanky enough to blunt Yasuo's damage, and his E just negates just about any real damage Yasuo can do. He also has significant burst, enough to chunk Yasuo pretty hard.

So I guess he is at best average.

Möral Support4 votes

Feed less and you might be able to handle him. Yasuo countering you does not excuse you for feeding him.

You aren't reading it correctly. Juggernauts are suppose to be able to tank carries like him until late game when he has a team assisting.

PermabannedGaren4 votes

{quoted}

You aren't reading it correctly. Juggernauts are suppose to be able to tank carries like him until late game when he has a team assisting.

No, this is bullshit and I don't know who told you this.

Juggernauts are not supposed to be able to face tank a carry who is two and a quarter items up on you with a three level lead.

They also aren't necessarily supposed to always beat a melee carry in lane, though some, like Darius, pretty much do.

doiminat0r36002 votes

Then what are they supposed to do? If they aren't supposed to tank, what is the purpose of their high HP? Why do they have high resistances early?

Hi lm Negan3 votes

A juggernaut isn't supposed to tank lul A tank is supposed to tank. A juggernaut is supposed to murder you if you aren't careful enough.

doiminat0r36002 votes

Lol, he edited his comment. Used to say tanks instead of juggernaut lol.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

{quoted}

Then what are they supposed to do? If they aren't supposed to tank, what is the purpose of their high HP? Why do they have high resistances early?

They can tank. They just can't tank a melee carry like Yasuo who has a significant level and item advantage on them.

Are you asserting that they should be able to do this?

Make no mistake, they can easily stat-check Yasuo throughout most of the game (up until late game basically, and some, like Nasus or probably Yorick, can do it even then) if the Yasuo hasn't snowballed. Yasuo doesn't beat juggernauts in lane by out-statting them. He does it by poking them and by doing short trades using his shield to absorb their burst before disengaging, slowly whittling them down. Some juggernauts, like Yorick, are easy to do this to. Some, like Darius, aren't likely to be beaten by this.

Möral Support1 votes

I didn't mean when he was that far ahead friend, it was meant to be early game and when they're even in lane.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

{quoted}

I didn't mean when he was that far ahead friend, it was meant to be early game and when they're even in lane.

Yorick will win a stat-check with Yasuo early game every single time.

Yasuo beats Yorick not by stat-checking him, but by being able to avoid being stat-checked by Yorick and whittling him down.

Troll for Trump2 votes

The problem is you can't feed less.

You played as safe as you can, and he just disregards that.

It's the same as pantheon.

I'm playing extremely defensive, hiding under 24/7, he just chunks me with his spears, gets me low, and I die.

There is no way to avoid that.

Hi lm Negan2 votes

The problem is that you think there is no way to not feed a Yasuo or a panth. This mindset is why you are gold since 3 seasons.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Not really. I just always get to gold 5 and stop playing.

There is no way to not feed them. You just have to sit there.

There's no counterplay on your end, it's based on how the enemy player is.

You see the aggro panths with ignite that will shit on you no matter what you do. Then you have the bad ones who take TP and think they should play defensive with pantheon for some reason and don't know what to do.

You have the yasuo gods that shit on everything by buttonmashing E, and you have the bad ones which pop up on your team and the enemy team that are just overconfident.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

{quoted}

The problem is you can't feed less.

You played as safe as you can, and he just disregards that.

It's the same as pantheon.

I'm playing extremely defensive, hiding under 24/7, he just chunks me with his spears, gets me low, and I die.

There is no way to avoid that.

Yasuo is not even in the same ballpark as Pantheon in terms of being an oppressive laner, and Yorick can actually play very safely and last-hit under turret easily. It's still not a great situation to be in because Yasuo will outscale you in team fights and you've giving him the lane for free, but it is vastly preferable to feeding him.

God Raijin5 votes

Clearly people who aren't playing yasuo, hate yasuo, but you know the funny thing is that he isn't broken, he has bad matchups and even has champions who outscale him that can wreck him in a splitpush as well Fiora

It's like god damn, I could be one of these people who constantly whines about champions that I personally don't like Malzahar Because I think his entire kit is about NOT letting the opponent play the game, being perma slowed from a screen awayitem 3116 while his critters chase you down, Getting silenced by him for 2 seconds on 3.6 second @40cdr cooldown. unless you want to set yourself seriously behind and buy a first item item 3140 all he has to do is flash on you when his jungle comes and you can't do shit. Hell you can't even try and get close (especially as an assassin) to him without him stopping you and having his team blow you up. And even if all that silence shit wasn't enough, how about basically getting a free item 3102 on a much lower cooldown to eat up more of you spells.

It's like, then you will see a bunch of people see this post and say, "YEAH, well, malz isn't that bad!" "He's not broken, you can counter him and shit." Well I think the same thing about yasuo.

Riot might as well rework every single champion that is even the least bit frusterating to play against while they are at it then. (not srs)

TigerMama Gemgem3 votes

It's not the items that are a problem, it's the champion. We've known that for a long time.

dominusx2 votes

for first not gonna deny mallet yas is cancer but... how the fuck do you lose as yorick to a yasuo? smh

xevi4 votes

Yasuo shits on Yorick unless Yorick gets tons of help from his jungler.

Yorick's minions are just free q stacks, gold, and dashes. Yorick's wall is pretty much ignorable for yasuo because of his e

The only time Yorick can actually beat Yasuo is with his ultimate which is on a long ass 2 minute CD.

LordGeovanni1 votes

and takes 2-3 seconds to summon

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

Yorick can't trade reliably if he misses his E. Given that Yasuo has 2 ways to avoid/block it, and his shield will most of the time negate the damage in the first place, it's hard to fight people in lane who can dodge your E outside of simply outstatting them with Q and R. Which, incidentally enough, is also a specialty of Yasuo.

Hayaishi22 votes

You played Yorick into Yasuo that was your mistake.

JustMonika132 votes

As a Yasuo main and someone who has played a lot of Yorick in recent times... Yasuo counters Yorick easily, and no, being a Juggernaut does not work in Yorick's favor.

Passive minions and ult serve as 3-5 extra dashes. Q is an Auto attack... and Yorick needs to stick to him in order to deal that damage. W is easily dashed out of and is the closest thing to CC Yorick has. E is blocked with Windwall.

Ult is the thing that has the largest chance against Yasuo, and even then, you will have to survive until you get your ult. And then get to Yasuo in order to auto attack to maximize damage with bonus HP % Magic damage on attack from hitting the same target as the Maiden.

Rek'sai just did the most reasonable thing. Camped a lane Yasuo could win easily and made Yasuo snowball.

That being said, Yasuo does need nerfs to his early game.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Neither items are healthy for thw game

Skorch2 votes

I definetly think PD, Mallet is a way too strong combo that certain champs can abuse, Yasuo being one of them. I personally hate those items.

Kyovulpes2 votes

Shut your dirty whore mouth Yas is hard and your not suppose to talk about how he's an incredible duelist with capabilities to make ranged not important with a amazing W mechanics and makes melee lifestyle a living hell with 100% crit off 2 items. Fucking just CC him you scrub OR just face the wind lel /s. In all seriousness tho he gains WAYYYYYY to much from 2 items. Offered defense (or wave clear if you have shiv.) 50% bonus armor pen on top of his double damage 2 second super applied Q a shield for trading and mechanics to get away on a E cast which increases with dmg the more you use it. The old " just wait till he outplays himself" is completely stupid cause that's not counterplay and never has been. Rant aside he needs that passive reworked, till then Yasuo face the wind man.

ßurst1 votes

He gets pd at around 10 minutes into the game

Ambient Snow1 votes

1 Hundred Percent agree with Poster

This is why Riot is fixing Yasou by once again Nerfing Irelia

This will help balance out Yasuo

DunkinNoobs1 votes

As a Yasuo main, I really wish Riot would just nerf PD. It gives Yasuo strengths he wasn't intended to have and allows him to win matchups he would normally lose.

Hexs Fortune1 votes

Good thing yasuo is on perma ban status

KVbqbFsC8e1 votes

The biggest problem has always been his dash not having a cooldown. Makes him ridiculously mobile in lane and very difficult to trade with.

Kyrrion1 votes

In what way is Yasuo in general healthy for this game? ~.^

JoeMG1 votes

Had a game where a Yas top pooped on a Garen. Garen, one of the most notorious armor stacking champs, couldn't do anything. Yea, Yas needs to be nerfed.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

{quoted}

Had a game where a Yas top pooped on a Garen. Garen, one of the most notorious armor stacking champs, couldn't do anything. Yea, Yas needs to be nerfed.

Garen is hot garbage. He's still hot garbage. He will always be hot garbage until he is reworked or buffed to be incredibly obnoxiously overpowered.

Also, Yasuo is a melee carry. Like AD carries, he does not give a shit about your defense stats. Neither would a Tryndamere, or a Master Yi (who is the best tank-buster in the entire game).

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