So, you're meaning to tell me that the minds of 100 LCS players is more important and better than the minds of 100 million active users who play this game? Oh, Malz is still picked in the LCS, time to nerf him to the ground, AGAIN.
D3m37r144 votesRiot: No
doiminat0r36004 votesCommunity: If we see something played well in the LCS, reguardless of it's glaring counters, we will complain.
Karunamon20 votesCommunity: If we see something~~ played well in the LCS, reguardless of it's glaring counters,~~ we will complain.
FTFY.
[slayer-jinx-catface]
Crimsonknight901 votesFTFY.
[slayer-jinx-catface]
XD so true [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
TheHappyReaperz30 votesWhile it can seem like Riot balances around the LCS, think of it this way. Poppy was picked in the LCS. The forums were awash with "Don't nerf Poppy because LCS". Then, after a little bit of time had passed, the posts "Poppy does too much damage, while being too tanky" started popping up. People realized Poppy was too strong, and Riot nerfed her.
Anidan7 votesIf Riot ever touches publords (
etc) it's almost never due to pro player concerns. Riot doesn't balance solely for pro play and never has. But since they're trying to maintain at least some pro play integrity, they do have to hit certain champions that overperform at that level or else why even host the competition in the first place?
Riot tries to strike a balance between pro and casual players, and they've done that pretty much forever. There was never this magical time where Riot balanced exclusively to the common player - that never happened. Likewise, Riot has never had this strange Dark Age where they balanced exclusively for pro play - that has never happened. They've always tried to meet somewhere in the middle, and any wonky balance is partly a result of that kind of balancing strategy. Even the lauded "tank meta" after Cinderhulk was nerfed had some pretty big balance issues.
Slimegoon3 votesIt's funny how you mentioned , they've slowly started rising in win rates as items have changed. Yi is sitting at around 52% win rate right now and climbing. Wouldn't be surprised to see them hit soon.
Joseraph2 votesAren't they both problems because of the new BortK? If we could not pull a Poppy (buff items/masteries > Break a champ that uses it > Break that champions legs > nerf item/mastery) that'd be great
ChargeItDownMid22 votes[deleted]
Erockandroll1 votesAnything that is broken in the LCS can easily be just as broken in solo queue. Just takes solo queue players longer since they do not invest as much time.
LCS isn't playing a different game, they simply preview the champions which will be broken in solo queue in a few weeks.
well technically, that affects certain champions more than others.
Some champs like Azir or Rek'sai, may have certain utilities or Exploits, that are difficult to capitalize on without team effort. You don't always get that team effort in YoloQ, which is where some champs get toned down, even when their over all win rate is fine.
Where the problems come up, is that Riot finds these exploits to be unique features that should be preserved. So they tone down the stats instead. And that's where everyone is getting off at Riot for "Balancing around the LCS" because they don't always go after the things that make them obnoxious in the LCS.
Mannny15 votes
????
Not saying he isn't a strong pick but in LCS he is almost pick or ban and in solo queue you hardly ever see him.
ChargeItDownMid5 votes[deleted]
Mannny10 votesHe is a power pick in pro play because of the coordination, solo queue has no coordination. Sure you can coordinate with your team to an extent but never to the extent where shen would be a considerably viable pick like he is in pro play.
ChargeItDownMid4 votes[deleted]
Mannny3 votesOver hundreds of games only about 5 of those games had people ask to join their discord server and only 2 of us would hop on lol. That makes him situational at best.
ChargeItDownMid3 votes[deleted]
macromite4 votesno.
Anidan2 votesWell, technically you do. You generally design a champion to be used for something in particular, Shen's global presence as an example. Now, obviously Shen has a lot more going on than just that, but let's just simplify this real fast. If you don't balance for the situation in which Shen is strong (coordinated play) then he becomes overwhelming, which results in a point where he's pretty much pick or ban in high enough level play - which we've seen happen to Shen before.
However, Shen cannot usually accomplish what makes him pick/ban worthy in a solo queue environment so he generally languishes somewhere between "bad" "somewhat usable" and "decent" there. Rarely higher or lower. He's kinda like Io or Abyssal Underlord in DotA2: he can be fine in solo queue, but coordinated competitive play is where he shines, and like Underlord and Io, history has proven that Shen tends to be balanced around the situations he's strong in, otherwise he can become overbearing in the situation in which he's actually really good just to make him feel really good in solo queue.
They have to do that for champions like Shen. For him to be good in one place means he absolutely will dominate the scene in the other place. It's happened before.
macromite2 votesbut here's the thing. balance should never be dictated by top play. Literally never.
Because in top play they are going to exclusively pick the best things. they spend the most time testing, and therefore are the most likely to find those little things that end up breaking the game in one way or another, and they are also the most co-ordinated, so they can pull off things that can be nearly impossible even for full teams of players.
This is totally normal though, lcs should be expected to be able to pull out the best from any champion. and for some champions the best should be higher than others. but just because the best should be higher doesn't mean that average players should end up with hot garbage on a stick for it.
Riot should be balanceing almost exclusively for the average players. the players that have around 50-100 hours on a champ in the bronze to diamond spectrum. of course there needs to be easy champs as well. but focusing on super high tier play is a waste because it won't matter up there, unless you break something intrinsic.
Anidan1 votesGoing to be honest: that just sounds like a difference in opinion rather than an actual fact. If you don't pay heed to what the pros and other high-skill players are doing in terms of balance then your competitive scene is literally worthless - it becomes a showcase of what they can break the hardest based on community whims (which it partly is now, but that's because Riot doesn't balance exclusively for pro play or casual play). If you balance around those that haven't put in as much time it's very easy to create something incredibly broken for people who have put in the time. That's incredibly important to remember.
I'm not going to say you have to balance completely one way or the other in casual vs. pro play, but remember that there is no factual basis in saying how they should balance, only opinion. And our opinions happen to disagree. I prefer a balance that focuses on people who put in the time and effort to master the champion and its limits, and you believe otherwise. It is what it is.
However, some champion designs themselves do lend themselves toward being balanced toward higher level play. Shen is one of those designs. In Solo Queue his value is going to be a crapshoot, while in competitive it's going to be much more stable. It's far easier to balance him for higher level where his performance is generally more reliable than lower skill players because they can break someone like Shen for him to be usable at that level. That's Shen's design.
macromite1 votesNo.
Could give you a long string but I'm not sure you could understand it, the previous post already shows that you failed to make correct jumps in logic, and for the sake of not arguing further with your bad leaps I'm just out.
Anidan1 votesSo... you're taking the "I'm smarter than I perceive you to be, so I'm not going to continue" end? Legitimate question: If you perceive someone to be less able to make the 'correct' jumps in logic and so you disregard them how exactly do you think they'll get better at making said correct leaps?
And also: I'm sorry that you think balance shouldn't be directed at high level play, but no, it should to an extent. If I had to choose one (1) type of player to balance for, it's the top players - because they're actually good enough to properly utilize the tools they're given. If I make a champion designed for coordinated play (Shen) then why would I balance him without coordinated high-level play in mind and instead make him usable in a level of play low enough that they can't properly take advantage of his strengths? Again, this is if I had to choose one (1) type of person to balance for in regards to specific champions. For champions designed for coordinated play they should be balanced around said coordinated play, preferably at a high level because they're capable of utilizing that champion to his fullest potential. You can balance a whole game around as many people as possible, but after a while you have to admit that certain champions simply have to be balanced around different skill levels - Shen is one of those champions. He will simply never be as valuable in uncoordinated play as he is in high level coordinated play, assuming viability in his current balance. This means to prevent warping higher level play to the point that he shoves out other picks, he can't be balanced around lower-skill uncoordinated play without keeping high-level play in mind.
Anyway, balancing according to the whims of a community, I've learned, is an absolutely terrible idea.
Now, you say can give a list of points, well, why don't you? This is a forum - it's meant for discussion. But for some reason, you eschew discussion because of what you perceive as bad logic just because it isn't your logic.
macromite1 votesnot nessacarily smarter, but you sure missed the point.
Harukishi2 votesA champion being able to go off in the specific situation their kit is designed for seems like exactly the type of thing riot wants. Plus even if a bunch of solo queue players were all in one discord the amount of coordination between them and teams that practice and play together constantly is still vast
ChargeItDownMid1 votes[deleted]
Mannny2 votesSo you consider champions like 
OP? Because he is only good when enabled and given time to scale up, making him situational. But once he gets to that 600-800 stacks he becomes really strong. The point I'm trying to make here is that situational champions that are given the opportunity to pop off are usually seen in pro play more often than solo queue, despite Nasus having numerous other flaws that keep him from being a dominant pick the situational aspect still stands. Why would a a solo queue player pick over something stronger that doesn't need coordination to be dominant like 
or 
?
Faceroll Tactics1 votesThat's really not true.
LCS is an entirely different game, champion picks are decided by what side they are picked on (red side varus was very op blue side varus was awful) strong champions in soloque are garbage because they require kills etc to make an impact, even the adc buys wards, etc
Crimsonknight901 votes[{quoted}](name=Faceroll Tactics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5xR8PmWu,comment-id=00010003,timestamp=2017-04-06T00:39:03.739+0000)
That's really not true.
LCS is an entirely different game, champion picks are decided by what side they are picked on (red side varus was very op blue side varus was awful) strong champions in soloque are garbage because they require kills etc to make an impact, even the adc buys wards, etc
how do sides affect the out come of a game ???
Faceroll Tactics1 votesLux, Varus, and other champs are better on red side because the blue jungle is closer to dragon and it's tighter and easier to safely poke from. They can also poke over baron pit, while the inverse is the case for blue, so they have to participate more for baron and get to poke at drag.
Now drag spawns more often so poking champs are more favored on the red side
Randomonium12 votesYes, the game should be balanced around the highest levels of competition. Balancing it around anything else would be illogical.
DarkHeadgear3 votesYes, the game should be balanced around the highest levels of competition. Balancing it around anything else would be illogical.
But Bronze 5 Rivens should have more damage to compensate for their lack of skill, right? Who cares about diamond players that will have 100% pick or ban riven with a 75% winrate? Low level gameplay is what really matters, since that's most of the community! That's why Riven clearly needs a buff.
--Sarcasm
Salron10 votesGenerally speaking pros almost exclusively play overpowered champions If it's strong in the LCS it's strong in soloQ unless it's a champion that is exponentially stronger in an organized team
ModAcademy Kayn1 votesLike when Urgot got picked.
Salron1 votesidr when those few times were but I remember one being against a zed and doing pretty well Seems like a highly situational pick to me Though people underrate Urgot way more than they should, he isn't as bad as he used to be a long time ago
My Waifu Vanilla2 votesUrgot was picked a lot when Kalista was released (and 100% pick/ban) due to him being a VERY hard counter in the bot lane while also being a strong anti-assassin pick in the mid lane (when Zed also happened to be popular). That being said, those 1-2 months are the only times Urgot has seen pro play in maybe 4 years.
HateDaddy6 votesWhere do you think the meta that 100 million people play in comes from in the first place? Everything we do trickles down from competitive and in some cases, high elo. There are some exceptions like one tricks, cheese strats and a case like this: competitive god vs solo queue average tier at best. You can't play favorites though, if something is broken or too strong in any one of these realms, it needs to be nerfed. It sucks, I feel for malz mains and I hope Riot can come up with a solution for malz to actually make his kit workable. But we don't make massive changes for exceptions of the rules.
Crimsonknight901 votesWhere do you think the meta that 100 million people play in comes from in the first place? Everything we do trickles down from competitive and in some cases, high elo. There are some exceptions like one tricks, cheese strats and a case like this: competitive god vs solo queue average tier at best. You can't play favorites though, if something is broken or too strong in any one of these realms, it needs to be nerfed. It sucks, I feel for malz mains and I hope Riot can come up with a solution for malz to actually make his kit workable. But we don't make massive changes for exceptions of the rules.
i'm sure malz mains don't want malz to become ryze 2.0 were his kit constantly changes due to it being too good/too bad
FooDang5 votesikr, we should balance around silver elo because they understand whats best for balance...amarite?
/sarcasm
Tribbles Foxfolk5 votesSo, you're meaning to tell me that the minds of 100 LCS players is more important and better than the minds of 100 million active users who play this game?
Yes, actually. LCS players are much more experienced than the random soloqueue trash. (Which is coming from a soloqueue trash) They're much more proficient with the mechanics and are quick to pick up and abuse "freelo" picks.
I think the problem comes from Riot trying to balance it so both sides are happy. However, the "casual" side (read: <Masters) is always going to butt heads with the "pro" side over what is and isn't balanced.
Personally, I believe Riot should make a choice: balance the game around the "casual" audience, which will probably screw over pros, or balance for the "pro" side, which will screw with the "casual" side in a big way.
Serophous5 votesIf all champs were somehow 100% balanced in LCS, people would STILL complain champ X is OP or UP, nerf/buff! Failing to realize that they may be struggling because 1. Team Comp, 2. Teammates, 3. The player themself.
But we all know it's NEVER 3.
Ariel the Cruel4 votesIs it played in LCS? -------- No ------- > Who cares?
| Yes | V
Is it Lee Sin? --------- No ------ > Gut it.
| Yes | V
Who cares?
;p
PrinceOfFun4 votesYou probably don't watch the LCS much though. For me, I much prefer watching than actually playing the game, and it's boring to see the same OP champions in LCS over and over again. I know I'm in the minority here, I just thought I would give my two cents.
Sire Hippington3 votesThey don't get nerfed because they are in lcs, but because they are to strong if played at their full potential, and they get played for that exact reason in lcs. The only way to prevent the low vs high elo balance issues would be spliting it in casual and competetive serves that use different balanceing, and then some high elos would smurf to own with their broken shit on casual servers... And so far the stated goal of riot is balanceing for plat+ and adressing outliners in pro aswell as in low elos, and if someone is pick/ban in lcs, he qualifies as an outliner, so nerfing a champ like shen or malz because of how they perform in high proplay is perfectly fine.
YokoNomi2 votesRemember when Malzahar was good? LCS remembers.
Woodakoodashooda6 votesRemember when Malzahar was good? LCS remembers.
Remember when Malzahar became an oppressive support because Riot decided that mages should get high base damage and that assassins should be allowed to ignore ability combos, thereby forcing Malzahar and other burst mages to migrate down into bot lane?
GamerThink1 votesCan you stop playing champions played on LCS? There are like 200 champs already...
2Charmnot2Charm2 votesKinda hard not to when riot nerfs every lcs pick/bans to the point that your mains are now actually contested in the lcs.
GamerThink1 votes
-> Never seen on LCS, owns in soloQ
-> Never seen on LCS, people won't even know the counterplay
-> Never seen on LCS, owns in soloQ
-> Hardly seen on LCS, owns in soloQ
-> Never seen on LCS, owns in soloQ
-> Never seen on LCS, owns in soloQ
-> Permabanned in soloQ but would be never played in LCS
And I could go on for eons.
SilentBomber1 votes
And I could go on for eons.
Go check youtube
All these champions were played at least once in current LCS. :)
