@Meddler: Are you guys actually nerfing Jungle Kog?

I agree that the limited uptime on W is an important aspect of his kit....and honestly considering the damage he can put out with rageblade+BotRK and W active I agree its duration cant be much higher

But I think there does need to be some incentive to make ranking W first a decent option beyond just the extended range. Definitely move the AS back to Q, but there really should be something for W max to make it a real choice.

uhhh no.....you guys need to nerf his early-mid game but leave alone his late game because he is a late game scaling hypercarry.

{quoted}

Hmm, thanks for the call out on Kog's tooltips. We'll do a pass on those, they're overall either a little wordy or communicating details that aren't actually helpful when learning the champion and therefore get in the way of more important information.

Regarding 6.3 it does look like we've overbuffed Kog in general. Looking into options at the moment, with base AS the most likely target.

It wasn't a bad idea to have the AS on Q because it delayed scaling and made him pay a price if he wanted to increase damage on Q via longer W CD and shorter range. This was an example of GOOD DESIGN. It made sense for a hypercarry kit so why not just revert it? Why trudge forward in the same direction when it was misguided? What happened now is that he got essentially his level 18 scaling on the primary damage ability by level 13. This turns Kog into a mid-game carry even more than a late game carry as far as his Marksman role.

I anticipated the base AS nerf in the post I linked and I explained (before any winrate data came) why it's the wrong way to go. First of all, you're hurting every Kog role doing this including AP (which was basically gutted after the rework because his poke style has much higher mana costs as well as far less poke damage) and JG. Secondly, you're nerfing his late game (especially due to items scaling worse on him) too which is supposed to be his signature phase and is the main reason anyone wants to play Kog.

One solution is to nerf the base AS on W in the early levels and make it start at 0 or 5% increasing more with levels.** The best though, if Riot is willing to be humble, evaluate evidence and simply revert a bad change, is to put the AS back on Q and just lower his ult. mana cost back to 40.** The increased mana reset timer can be kept. These would be great changes and with the minimum damage on W too, should make him balanced but not overwhelming. This would allow Mid Kog with a poke style to be a little more viable, although still not on the level he was pre-rework and it would help AD Kog have just a little bit more lane presence using his ult. while not being too scary like with so much AS on W.

Conceptually and in terms of play style, I still prefer old Kog by a long shot but if your goal is to keep this rework and make him balanced while helping out mid kog just a bit since he was hit pretty hard, this is probably going to be enough. Seriously, I don't know why it's so hard for Riot to just revert bad changes. Instead, you guys seem to just plow forward with the bad change - putting bandaids to address it instead of just ADMITTING, "OK, this was a bad idea. Let's revert it and work from there. A hypercarry design needs to have the power unlocked slowly instead of accelerated to level 13. It was a good idea to have the AS on Q."

I never see that from Riot on anything except maybe a year later and then usually the change comes with some explanation about the meta etc. Why is that so hard? This is all you have to do but I feel no one will listen to me about this and it's incredibly frustrating because I probably have more knowledge and experience about Kog than anyone on Riot's balance team based on how much I've played him over multiple accounts (more than 1000 ranked games in the last 2 seasons). Base AS shouldn't be touched just for the sake of preserving a bad change that turned Kog into too much of an early-mid game threat.

I really care about this champion and I especially loved playing AP Kog pre-rework (when he was way more reliant on R and imo much stronger too). This is why I'm so worked up over these changes. I really do appreciate your answers and communication with the community though. I don't want to come across as rude.

BTW: If you really want to nerf base AS, it should be nerfed substantially enough to be able to add another 1% max HP on W. % HP damage naturally scales with time and makes sense for a hypercarry without being too strong early.

{quoted}

Hmm, thanks for the call out on Kog's tooltips. We'll do a pass on those, they're overall either a little wordy or communicating details that aren't actually helpful when learning the champion and therefore get in the way of more important information.

Regarding 6.3 it does look like we've overbuffed Kog in general. Looking into options at the moment, with base AS the most likely target.

Thanks for your answers, Meddler. Getting any real insight on Kog's changes has been difficult and I really appreciate the time you've taken to tell us a bit about the state of our favorite Void Puppy.

I've got to concur with Ofart here on his analysis.

Shifting the attack speed on Kog's Q over to his W has given Kog access to too much power too quickly. Reducing Kog's base attack speed will hurt his late game, putting him in an even more compromised position compared to other hyper-scaling Marksmen like Twitch and Vayne. I think the best bet would be to move the passive attack speed back to his Q again.

If you guys still feel like Kog isn't getting enough incentive to level his W early, allow me to pitch a few alternatives.

If the minimum damage on Kog's W went up with skill level, that would allow Kog to put points in this skill early game without feeling bad about it. And more importantly, without increasing his strength late game at all.

Alternatively, if the duration of W increased a small amount with each level in W, that would give Kog a bit more of a high point in battle. Way back in Season 1, Kog's W was increased from six seconds to ten (later lowered back to 8 in Season 2) because six seconds tended to be low enough that Kog stopped being useful in the middle of full team fights. Having played quite a bit of Dominion (where Kog is quite strong) I've found that 6 seconds is plenty for 2v2s and 3v3s, but in full 5v5s over on Rift it often wears off at crucial moments.

Regardless!

Thanks for your time. I look forward to see what you guys have in mind for Kog. There aren't many Kog mains, but we're really passionate about our Voidpuppy and I know I speak for everyone when I say that we would love to be able to talk to you guys about the direction you take with him.

Dear Meddler

Before you make some changes on Kog, please consider that Kog's win rate might be boosted by some HELPER (cheating software; auto-targeting, kiting, auto skill-evasion, etc.) players.

Because Kog's play rate is significantly low, its win rate could be boosted by some cheating players.

why would you nerf his base AS? Can you at least compensate with better scaling attack speed so his late game isn't affected. He is a LATE GAME HYPERCARRY. Your previous buffs affected his EARLY-MID game. Please be reasonable.