am i wrong or is ornn garbage

lil koda·Aug 24, 2017·22 votes·9,229 views

the delay on his q and the short range on his e makes this champ feel so bad any champ can get around him, and his "upgraded" items are shit too. edit: i also forgot to mention being locked in a direction during w

79 Comments

420 gramsAug 24, 201714 votes

You are wrong

Rude NameAug 24, 201723 votes

Interesting point, concise and clear. I shall take lessons from this, good sir.

AirKingNeoAug 24, 20173 votes

My favorite, and from a political cartoon, is:

Not an argument.

Ben SharpioAug 24, 20172 votes

i had an orn mid in my last game. He was so fucking strong and we BARELY won. I dont consider him weak based on that one player's performance.

ModKnightsKemplarAug 24, 201713 votes

It will take some time to evaluate.

I feel one of the more difficult things for me was that he does physical AND magic damage. Thematically, I like it, but it makes me unsure of what to build. I didn't really want to build Abyssal Mask, for instance, because it's only marginally helpful.

The other tough thing is to figure out his niche on a team. To me, he's pretty obviously a tank. But he's not great at engage, and his disruption tools are meh. Maybe he's a split pusher? He's got W to roast waves (but it's only okay) and he's got Q and E to try to escape collapses.

Ornn is cool because there's depth here in a way I haven't seen in recent releases. Ornn feels like he has options depending on how he builds. That means it could potentially take awhile to figure out where he's most useful.

lil kodaAug 24, 20172 votes

im not really seeing the "build options" hes just an average tank

ModKnightsKemplarAug 24, 20172 votes

Maybe. Many champs have looked average in the past prior to high elo players figuring out how to game their kit.

lil kodaAug 24, 20174 votes

i mean, i hope im wrong, i enjoy seeing new champs but this guy just seems so idk how to explain it, like you can never do anything by your self unless the enemy has no braincells

RalanrAug 24, 20173 votes

Considering how they advertised him as a vanguard, it's clear they want him to be an engager.

His ult however seems to require awkward angles for summon so you can hit it into the direction you want to go. It's really unlikely you'll hit both parts of the ult.

Personally I find his Q underwhelming. It doesn't feel like it does any damage and the pillar comes up so slowly that the synergy with his E only works if the enemy stays next to it for some reason.

ModKnightsKemplarAug 24, 20172 votes

I found it to be good damage, but that's because I maxed it :3

We'll see what happens.

RalanrAug 24, 20172 votes

I maxed W first. I might max Q first next time and max E last because I can't find enough situations to use E.

ModKnightsKemplarAug 24, 20172 votes

Yes. I think Q max worked well. I typically do a brainless Q>W>E run on my first time on a champ just so I don't have to think about it, but I like that on Ornn even after thinking about it.

Thing is, W is so short range, and the best thing about it is the brittle condition, which will work better with teammates. For the solo laning, I would think Q would be better.

DeathBurstAug 25, 20171 votes

Hmm, I'm not so sure.

W is more wave-clear in lane, which can be a lot more important than damages against your opponent in a lot of match-ups. If your opponent has lane dominance, you need the waveclear to not be pushed too much under tower. If YOU have lane dominance, THEY should wave clear under their tower and deny you trades anyway. In both cases you don't care about your Q damage too much, and it's only useful when the lane is really well balanced and the little additional poke with Q can make the difference.

But even then, Q is a rather slow skill-shot, and E is much more damage if you can land both parts (+60/rank, compared to +30/rank on Q), so I would still not max Q in that situation.

ModKnightsKemplarAug 25, 20171 votes

You may be right. I was informed last night, second hand, that Phreak prefers to max W. So that's at least one person who is significantly better than me at the game who says to max W :P

DeathBurstAug 25, 20171 votes

I'd max W if you want the wave clear, and E if you want to trade with your opponents, but I definitely would not max Q first.

As for not finding enough situations for E, well, the champion is still pretty new, I'd say it's a matter of practice.

DeathBurstAug 25, 20171 votes

His R always appear at the same distance, so with a bit of practice, you can make it appear right in the middle of the enemy team for the initial slow, and then you get the easy redirect for the knock up, whatever your own position.

The Q is as useful as a zoning threat than as a proper damage spell. Yes, the enemies can back away and deny the E, but it means you can control where they are, and that's already quite powerful. Assuming you're talking about team-fights, here.

If you meant in lane, from what I've seen, his standard pattern is Roast them, basic attack to knock-back, Q while they are cc'ed, then E into the pillar while they are slowed by the Q. You can't force a trade to happen, since you have no reliable way to gap close, but if THEY engage on you, you can out-trade a fair amount of other top laners if you play it correctly. And as a Tank, you should be perfectly happy to just farm until team-fights break out.

KnightOfEloHellAug 24, 20171 votes

So why not rageblade gunblade? I use it on Morde and it's rather strong on hybrid champs. Gives you sustain, a slow, and good all around damage, but most importantly, it melts towers on Morde.

ModKnightsKemplarAug 24, 20172 votes

I dunno if his health scaling and ranges support that much damage. I would imagine his optimal build would be a tankier one, but you never know!

KnightOfEloHellAug 24, 20171 votes

Health scalings? The only thing that scales with hp is max shield that you can obtain, BUT that shield is built by damage dealt, so if you build tank, sure, you have the possibility to have a stronger shield, but you will lack the damage to fill it up.

My personal favorite build is DFT, exaust/ignite, Gunblade Rageblade Rylias Liandries Steraks. You have good AP and AD, get stronger in prolonged fights (hello teamfights) and enough AD and AS to MELT towers VERY fast.

This build gives you hp for max shield WITHOUT sacrificing damage to BUILD the shield to full very quickly.

Exaust and ignite are both used to win lane ez.

Glory ln DeathAug 24, 20171 votes

From what I remember (on mobile right now, so it's too much trouble to look up stats), Ornn has a Total AD ratio on Q, a health ratio on W shield, and Armor/MR ratios on E. Everything else is just base damage and % current health, right? Why would you want AP? Or even any significant amount of AD?

KnightOfEloHellAug 25, 20171 votes

My Apologies, idk why I thought I was talking about Morde (probably other Morde related posts that I mistakes this one for)

Yeah, with those stats, I'd say Steraks and Triforce into full tank, while trying to max your CDR to make use of the % hp damage.

Mig89Aug 24, 20172 votes

Ive been thinking about picking him up and trying him for support only because I could see his peel being semi decent. Popping a pillar next to your adc and then following it up with a knockup seems ok. His brittle seems like a weaker version of Braums passive but could still be useful.

DeathBurstAug 25, 20171 votes

His R is fucking good at engage. It always appear at the same distance, so with a bit of practice, you can make it appear right in the middle of the enemy team for the initial slow, and then you get the easy redirect for the knock up. The rest of his CC is rather unreliable and more meant as follow-up beside the R, I agree with that, but it's hard CC on short CD and AoE, so can't complain too much.

Definitely don't try to split-push, and for the builds, just buy straight tank items, don't try and get fancy with damage item. If really you're snowballing and want to leverage a lead, your best bet is something like Iceborn Gauntlet, or maybe Frozen Mallet.

MimrAug 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

His R is fucking good at engage. It always appear at the same distance, so with a bit of practice, you can make it appear right in the middle of the enemy team for the initial slow, and then you get the easy redirect for the knock up. The rest of his CC is rather unreliable and more meant as follow-up beside the R, I agree with that, but it's hard CC on short CD and AoE, so can't complain too much.

Definitely don't try to split-push, and for the builds, just buy straight tank items, don't try and get fancy with damage item. If really you're snowballing and want to leverage a lead, your best bet is something like Iceborn Gauntlet, or maybe Frozen Mallet.

Hmm, good tip on the ultimate... place it in their team at such an angle that you can easily advance towards it shortening the time you need to redirect it giving your opponents less chance to react to it. Going to try that out on my next game with him.

Also, I kinda like the idea of triforce on him... pretty powerful burst with Brittle added on, helps his Q a bit and makes killing objectives easier. No idea if it's an actually good idea though.

DeathBurstAug 25, 20171 votes

Triforce is essentially the staple item to turn any Tank into a half-decent split-pusher,

Not saying it's a great idea to split-push with a Tank in the first place, 'cause really, it's not. If you want to do that, there are far better suited champs. But weeell, at low-ish MMR (say, Bronze to Silver 2), split-pushing is one of the most reliable method to consistently win games without relying on your team-mates. You don't have to snowball to the point where you can 1v3/1v5, and you don't have to bet on big team-fights, where the outcome is quite random (since you can't rely on your team-mates performing at a baseline level).

So I practiced split-push a lot, even with Champs who are not intended and not well-suited for the task. And to split-push, you essentially needs two things:

wave-clear, to get the wave to the tower in the first place. Most Tanks have some AoE in their kit, but If they don't, you can get some from the Bami or Tiamat lines.
damage against structures, once you get to it. And for that, Triforce is excellent, with both AS and the Spellblade procs. Another good alternative is ZZ'rot.

But if you plan to play the champ as it was intended and to fill your role of Frontliner/Initiator for your team, Iceborn Gauntlet is better in 90% of the situations. Yes, Triforce is more damage against objectives (and even against champs), but it's not your role in the first place to deal damage.

FantasySniperAug 25, 20171 votes

As far as I can tell, it's Abyssal into tank. Tri-Force is relatively strong on him, but he's not exactly strong in the first place, so we'll just have to wait and see how they buff him before he falls into a specific role and build direction.

BeatzBoyFTWAug 24, 20179 votes

He was released only yesterday....

KloqdqAug 24, 20174 votes

Doesn't mean we can't discuss stuff. Personally from what I saw so far, his not leaving a massive impression. Kind of leaning towards the weak side.

BeatzBoyFTWAug 25, 20172 votes

Isn't that the exact same impression on EVERY NEWLY RELEASED CHAMPIONS?

MimrAug 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Isn't that the exact same impression on EVERY NEWLY RELEASED CHAMPIONS?

Not always. Camille as a fairly recent example was immediately deemed incredibly OP (and it was justified) and received several nerfs afterwards.

KloqdqAug 25, 20171 votes

There is only a handful of champions that come out pretty weak. This is riot also trying to be more careful with new champions as they have seen how they fucked up in the past. Either they released something far to strong, or they act so quickly that it fucks up something that was later deemed to OP. Zac was like that. Many champions do come out pretty strong and just take time to find a good spot.

In Ornn's case, I think he is good, but he is pretty weak to others honestly. There isn't anything he is providing at the moment that makes him a good pick against someone like Maokai, J4, Galio, Etc.

EschetonAug 24, 20176 votes

How do you feel about Sion?

lil kodaAug 24, 20172 votes

i dont think sions the best either, but atleast he has innate tankiness and reliable cc

NyarlathοtepAug 24, 20175 votes

Innate tankness? Reliable cc? Are we talking about sion.? Because that sounds like nautilus.

lil kodaAug 24, 20171 votes

? stacking hp on his w? an e that slows heavily then he can land his q with a big aoe ult if ur good at aiming it?

statelesskillerAug 24, 20174 votes

sions: Q highly visible an be dodged by literally walking sideways the moment you see it starts. W tank steroid max health shield that also does max health damage. also has a passive that gives more health per minion killed. about 200 extra health when you leave lane. stacking slows down because mages and adcs take all the farm forever. E max armor shred that is a slow and does a nice chunk of damage when maxed. ult long range choo choo train that can be extremly hard to land and is a very high skill cap thing

nautilis: q is reliable cc that is hard to dodge and you can infact predict where people will dodge making it even further more reliable. auto attacks can root. W is a shield that scales with max health better then sions i believe. also makes a sunfire passive for its duration. massive aoe slow that you cant miss. to slow the entire enemy team down with. ult point and click knockup that eventually will knock up your target no matter what they try to do

nautilis does what sion does . . .but better . . .and easier.

not to say i dont like sion. i like sion alot. i play him support whenever i get autofilled

Glory ln DeathAug 24, 20172 votes

nautilis does what sion does . . .but better . . .and easier

"Easier", sure. Naut's CC is more reliable than Sion, especially with his point and click ult. "Better", definitely not. Just look at the difference in their winrates in every role - Sion surpasses Naut by a large margin.

Also, Sion only leaves lane with 200 bonus health as a support. In top and jungle, he'll end laning phase with at least 350, and end the game with 700+.

BETA253Aug 24, 20174 votes

as soon as these complaints get to riot, there gonna BREAK this character. im talking 300%ap ratio on this ult, ability to move in any direction with w, q damage increased by 50, brittle affects last 10 seconds, and upgraded censor being available ( along with op upgrades)

MLDzXnRRRAug 24, 20173 votes

I like him, but I miss almost every ult. Played him twice.

DragonSheaAug 24, 20173 votes

Ornn's Combo can fuck people up badly if they don't avoid his W and E, His Q is not that bad, but if his W's final tick hits you and you get E into terrain. you are fucked. A lot of Ornn Players are being utterly braindead on the champ and fail to realise he is a combo champ with some mana issues to balance out his ability to get items outside the base. If Some comes to gank for him you can kiss your ass goodbye because his insane CC.

Also. In teamfights His Ult is a beast for CC'ing the enemy team and in the right hands that can utterly dominate a teamfight. Ornn is more of a "burst" engage. He has one change to get in and cause havoc but if he fails he is gonna get punished.

HammermancerAug 24, 20173 votes

you're not building him right

item 3031 item 3508 item 3087 item 3022 item 3083

is that enough hp for warmongs passive?

Never gonna b again build

Meep ManAug 24, 20172 votes

Get used to him first. People said about the same thing about Sion after his rework and he was fine in the end.

5050BSAug 24, 20172 votes

Short range on his E? Its a very long dash.

FYI his W is very nice. I can stop Riven knockups or Yasuo Knockups or ANYONES forced movement with it.

You just suck with him is all (along with most right now)

Winek ChanAug 26, 20172 votes

His damage is way too weak.

It's impossible to make this champion scale in any way.

Wet DrymanAug 25, 20171 votes

I heard similar complaints about Sion but he ended up as one of the strongest champions in the game with minor tweaks (mainly mana costs), sooo given that Ornn has more utility and his CC is more reliable than Sion's he is very likely to end strong/too strong once people will get used to him.

AnagsAug 25, 20171 votes

Sion is different. He is like a range caster tank in lane. When he was stupid after rework he e spammed in lane for ranged clear and harass. He has better harass and wave clear. Ornn is much more like Poppy than Sion. Most complaints about Sion's rework were just that they didn't like the new playstyle as far as I'm concerned.

Ornn's kit just feels a bit too clunky imo. But it probably needs a little more time as well.

Solidair3Aug 25, 20171 votes

he's a little weak, but I've seen plenty of success stories. I think people are still getting used to him. I've seen teams that utilize his new CC "brittle" with heavy hard CC teams are more effective than others.

I think another problem is I see people buying his special items too early in the game. His items are NOT gold efficient and literally should not be bought until you're full build.

I think he could use a buff but not a major one, just a little push, I think.