About the Poppy nerfs

Myrmiron··108 votes·5,124 views

I agree that she needed a nerf, I'm not here to state otherwise or argue that she isn't in fact all that strong. I just think that the nerf to her ultimate should have been made in a different way. In case you guys don't know, AD Poppy is actually a lot of fun to play. And it's really annoying to see an off build getting gutted by nerfs that are intended to hit her main build, aka tank. I think a better approach would have been to just flat out lower the base damage, but buff the bonus AD multiplier.

This way AD Poppy can still fastcombo her enemies, and doesn't have to wait for her ultimate to charge up and potentially not finish them off but shoot them away.

I love playing fun off builds, and it saddens me every time one of them gets nerfed. I think league is a better game if champions can be played in multiple ways, instead of just having that one way they work in. It keeps the game fresh and entertaining.

82 Comments

Dauthau35 votes

I don't understand why people down vote posts like this. You were tactful about everything you said. Kudos to you sir. And I agree, Poppy jungle may no longer be even worth playing (it was my main). Nerfing her tankiness AND her damage at the same time seems a little bit foolish, quite honestly. Letting her fall out of gameplay after spent so much effort on a great rework seems a shame.

Myrmiron16 votes

Oh wow, I actually already left the thread because everyone seemed to hate it. Thank you. :)

Salron15 votes

The ratio should've been left untouched

Supreme Senpai6910 votes

Yea Poppy doesn't build AD anyway so why nerf its ratio, makes no sense

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

Black Cleaver is a good buy on her.

50000000000000003 votes

That gives her 50 AD. Poppy lost 22.5 damage if she only built Black Cleaver into tank. I'm guessing bruiser Poppy players bought more AD on her?

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

I suppose, but considering how many times she q's in a fight, it is a measurable sum.

50000000000000004 votes

The Q damage isn't nerfed though. Bruiser poppy definitely lost a lot of the burst potential (mostly due to base value being cut in half on top of the scaling damage), but in a long fight I think Poppy's damage is nearly unaffected. If it's black cleaver+full tank, she lost 122/172/222 damage on her ultimate.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

They didn't touch the ratio. They halved the entire damage of the ult for snap casting.

Salron2 votes

The snapcasting ratio got halved http://puu.sh/tj9Tq/fd54d1663f.png

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Because they halved the damage as a whole for snap casting. The ult does half damage no matter how much AD you buy if you snap cast it.

ZT Xperimentor11 votes

Just more evidence that riot is enforcing the game to be played a particular way; and why it's becoming more stale & less interesting to play. And no it's not for balance reasons either, there's still plenty of abusers out there riot willfully ignores because they're 'exciting' to watch/play.

RocketRelm7 votes

To be fair, I hardly think this specific nerf was intentionally aimed at "let's get rid of AD Poppy". This was probably as little thought out as "Oh, her ult does full damage when snap cast. Let's halve that. Sounds fair.".

Never attribute to Malice what can be adequately explained by Apathy.

ZT Xperimentor4 votes

There's already been other champions who did such spike damage; some weren't nerfed as harshly for it, while others were gutted; I'm referring to the change in design philosophy over the years.

Interesting quote though, something I'd like to ponder.

Bodkins Odds1 votes

It's the spike damage combined with the CotC + passive shield. She's both bursty and unkillable. But as soon as that tumor of a mastery is excised she's going to be useless. Except as a support against WW and Rengar.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Oh please, courage isn't nearly as busted at the other masteries that remain popular picks. Warlords bloodlust & thunderlord's

Bodkins Odds1 votes

Thunderlord's just got nerfed, although that might still be on the PBE, and Warlord's has already been made reasonable. It's only overused right now because Fervor still kind of sucks.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

'Reasonable' Getting a continuous (all be it fluctuating) bloodthirster for free is reasonable but getting a brief gage shield isn't? Double standards. What nerf to thunderlords are you speaking of?

Bodkins Odds1 votes

The one that makes multi-hit abilities count as one spell so that, for Instance, Morgana, MF, and Cassiopeia can't proc it just by dropping their AoE's on you and walking away.

Also, the big problem with CotC is that even in it's intended usage, it gives an already hard to kill champ a massive shield when he hard CC's while near the enemy team. Yeah, it's really nasty on solo laners right now, but once that's fixed it will still make Zac unstoppable when he E's into the enemy team.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Meanwhile marksmen & fighters abuse it for free, giving them more sustain than actual draintanks without needing to change their builds what-so-ever. I've been referring to warlord's bloodlust the whole time, not thunderlord's decree; and no mages cannot benefit meaningfully (without huge off-meta builds) from bloodlust because it functions as lifesteal, physical on-hit damage from auto-attacks only. What's the weakness to sustain? Burst, oh wait mages & assassins have been more or less nerfed; meanwhile critical hits & sheen spams have still made gradual damage more bursty than intended.

Courage has a significant cooldown attached, and because its shield only happens after locking down someone, the shield is often wasted in anything outside of teamfights; as the disabled player cannot attack while the shield is up. But you propose gutting it for doing it's job? How about deleting half of the damage items so marksmen can't take objectives any more too? How about removing runes to destroy any possibility of stat-checking combat? Primarily damage dealing champions (whether they be marksmen, mages, assassins, ext) have had 2 good mastery keystones since the mastery overhaul; tanks have not, and now that they do I've noticed carry mains are pretty much the only ones complaining about it. It's like they're the only ones refusing to wait the 2 seconds for the shield to dissipate, yet again refuse to chase/poke/trade within the next 30 seconds while it's on cooldown. I don't care if they're oblivious or ignorant to windows of opportunity, there's no excuse not to educate yourself when the information is so easily accessible; and it's their own fault for not capitalizing on such obvious weaknesses.

Shieldy9 votes

Poppy became too strong because of Colossus, so they give Poppy a couple of huge nerfs to compensate, then destroy the colossus mastery itself next patch. They only just brought her back into viability from last year's overnerfing, and now they're doing it again?...

Anidan13 votes

This is Riot. They have a history of doing this to a lot of champions. You get pretty used to the balance team being a troop of monkeys.

Argomecha Perdix8 votes

Why does that sound so familiar...... Sejuani

Bodkins Odds4 votes

I don't know, it's not like everyone and his mother knew that CotC was broken the moment they read the tooltip. I mean, if that were true then it would definitely be similar to a different case, but it's certainly not true at all. item 1413 Sejuani Nope. Not at all.

Jenks32 votes

Hey, other champions deserve to be in the spotlight too, you know.

FPSKILLERBOB2 votes

Sejuani I miss Sejuani

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

It's because Poppy is still going to get assured CoC procs due to her knock-back. So unless CoC is literally shit, Poppy is still going to get lots of shielding to go along side her own shield and resist buffs.

Gregor Gysi7 votes

Yeah, there was no reason to touch the AD ratio. Just decrease the base damage further if needed, but AD Poppy doesn't seem to be a problem.

Heartstrings216 votes

I'm not a fan of the reduced shield duration. ESPECIALLY since the shield is still completely random on where it lands. By the time you can pick it up (if you even decide to go get it) and move back to your enemy, the shield is gone and you got zero use out of it. If they're going to insist on this change, then the shield needs to automatically fly back to you regardless of whether or not you killed your target. As it stands with this change, unless the shield lands right in front of you in your path to an enemy, a Poppy is never going to get any use out of it.

And don't even get me started on jungle Poppy... its bad enough she gets our performed by every other jungler because she's not inherently AD based, but this patch pretty much puts the final nail in the coffin for jungle Poppy.

Bardcookie5 votes

As a Poppy main, I couldn't agree more. No reason to literally half the ult damage. And I will say, 5 seconds was long for a shield..but 3 is too short. Lowering it too 4 seconds, or lowering the health ratio on it would have been better. Just like previous nerfs to her, I think these are a bit much. Now this is 90% of me being a biased fuck cause I main her and love her, but still. The damage nerfs were a bit much on her ult.

KoKoboto5 votes

lol I don't think Rito cares about different builds anymore I mean look at what they did to Kog'Maw

Zedex3 votes

Riots all like, "time for our new VGU champ to shine!"

Here comes Warwick.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Offbuilds will never be considered when balancing for their true build. This is a fact, and we'll all be better off when people realize that.

Papa Andrei2 votes

Malzahar would like a word with you

Anidan11 votes

So.. "Play our way or fuck you"? That doesn't seem like a very sustainable long-term plan, and it also sounds kind of lazy. Instead of balancing with those builds being accounted for they just ignore it and move on, if not outright remove it? Erm. That's great.. for anyone who wants to play solely in the pre-approved manner that Riot says is okay. But otherwise that sounds awful. That sounds like they want to determine what the champion is good at rather than the playerbase working with the kit and organically getting a feel for the things it can do and then working around what the playerbase is able to have the champion do without dictating any particular direction.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

No it's "Play whatever way you want, but we're not going to pander to your offmeta build, if it means balancing the true build".

Anidan4 votes

Except, who determines the 'true build'? Why are we containing characters like that? That makes for extremely static character balance and doesn't allow people to experiment as much. Imagine, then, that Riot stopped releasing new characters and just balanced what we have: that would mean we have 134 champions with one 'true build' that's the only way they're balanced to be played. However, say someone finds an alternate build for, I don't know, Fizz and it turns out to also be very efficient - too efficient - and it needs nerfs, but those nerfs will have to hit the true build. The true build is balanced, though, so now what do you do? Hit the off build and the true build is collateral, right? Well now you have a new 'true build' because his previous one isn't comparatively balanced but his new one is. But his true build, as determined by Riot, isn't the one that's now going to be used and that's a problem, isn't it? Or is it? It's not Riot's idea, it's the players - the players organically took what Fizz was good at and made use of him in a way that Riot didn't consider to be his true build. So what can they do at this point?

You can't just decide to make a character and determine what their "true build" is once and for all, because players don't work that way and neither does balancing a MOBA. You can't just ignore offbuilds for the sake of their "true build" because that takes away variety in gameplay which is very damaging in the long-term both for the sake of variety and it will absolutely erode trust in the company knowing that anything considered to be slightly off won't be accounted for. But that's the path Riot has already headed down, isn't it? The path the doesn't want to account for offbuilds or support them because it doesn't fit their vision wherein a character has one or two things they were built to do and anything else is overstepping their boundaries.

That's not a good place for a company to go. That's how you get to a company that doesn't care about a lot of people and potential playstyles.

Myrmiron1 votes

Either AD or AP Ezreal used to be an off build, but Riot liked it so they started to maintain and balance it. Every nerf/buff made to Ezreal in the past has been made with his off build in mind.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Neither of those are offbuilds. AP or AD, each is very popular in it's regard, so balancing is done for both (also read the Malzahar, since you can easily balance AD/AP Ezreal as he has both AP and AD ratios)

Poppy is a Tank, and to balance her around Full AD (of Full AD-ish) would be the same as balancing AP Tryndamere.

Myrmiron1 votes

Just because they're popular doesn't mean that they aren't off builds. See: AP Yi, AP Tryndamere for example. Both their builds became popular, and neither was intended to be played this way by Riot, and thus an off build. Same goes for Ezreal.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Uhhhh, no Offbuild literally means a lesser played build, hence the word "off".

And you see see how fast AP Yi and AP Tryn got nerfed when they became unhealthy? They weren't just nerfed most the time, but straight up gutted in either reworks or nerfs. And you can't say that Riot doesn't support offbuilds either, because remember AP Trist? They kept the AP Ratio on her Ult, jump, and E because as long as they didn't ruin the actual build, which is AD.

Poppy as a Tank was doing too much damage, and is generally, a b***h to kill due to her survivability. So they made her less tanky and lowered damage a bit, with no regards for an offbuild AD, because the Tank build is the most commonly built, and as such, is the one Poppy is balanced around.

Myrmiron3 votes

Funny that you mention AP Tristana because they gutted her AP build in the champion update. And by your own definition AP Ezreal is an off build and shouldn't be balanced for.

five oh tree 2 votes

Though I do feel for what you're saying, the nerfs to the tank build were needed. However, I think they definitely nerfed the wrong thing. The nerfs should have just been targeted at her Q.

Socket121 votes

It feels so bad to see your toplaners feeding a Poppy cuz of her op Q

TheHappyReaperz5 votes

It feels bad because it is so easy to dodge the second burst of damage, and your toplaner never does.

FPSKILLERBOB1 votes

E V E R

FrankTheTank26882 votes

This nerf is COMPLETE bullshit. NERF the mastery Colossus not the CHAMP. Riot fails at balancing this game.. Quitting till shes rebuffed.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

The only Poppy change that is needed is making her E only give CotC on wall stun instead of her being able to E in the middle of the lane for free trades with passive shield or just the big shield in teamfights for simply hitting E and "missing" a wall stun.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

How does ad poppy work anyway? Do you build full ad, or go bruiser like? Riot is normally not against off builds if there's some tradeoff for it.

Myrmiron4 votes

You build big AD items and slam enemies into walls, Q them and R them and dead them. The tradeoff is, you die fast. So, they die fast; you die fast; I don't see a problem there.

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