Thoughts on Alistar

Leona Jungle Bot··1 votes·1,158 views

The problem:

While I appreciate the mana cost buffs he received, I feel that either his E or his passive need to be reworked. Alistar's Headbutt-Pulverize combo is more or less a signature of the champion now. However, even with the reduced mana costs, he is forced to stand there doing nothing in teamfights while he waits for his cooldowns to come back up due them being insanely high. He has a sick initiation combo, but he spends too much time being useless afterwards - especially if the enemy has a good disengage. Heck, you can even dash out of Alistar's Headbutt now because the dash speed got nerfed.

Because he is a melee champion with very high cooldowns, he can essentially only play one role - which is support. This is especially true now that the bonus damage from his passive against monsters was removed. You may see him top lane from time to time, but he is simply outclassed by most other top laners when it comes to laning. His subpar movement and the now incredibly high cooldown on his mediocre heal makes it too easy for him to get poked under tower and eventually out of lane. The reduced summoner 4 range and the reduced dash speed on Headbutt means that you can no longer cheese them with Q and W under turret like he used to because they have so much more time to react.

Also, being forced to build around CDR every game is not healthy gameplay.

Possible solutions:

I admit that reducing the cooldowns to his W and Q would make them too strong. However, I don't like the fact that I'm almost forced to build 30-40% CDR on him to make him relatively useful in fights. Let's face it, the AoE heal on his E is trash now that it only heals 33% of the amount to allies - not to mention that increased the cooldown and pretty much no one builds AP on Alistar anymore. The reduced cooldown when an enemy dies makes no sense because that forces you to push your lane. I think it'd be a better idea to remove the reduced cooldown when an enemy dies, and make it so that the cooldown is reduced by ~1.5 seconds every time you auto-attack an enemy champion. This gives Alistar a chance to get at least two autos in when he does his W-Q combo, and it wouldn't be especially OP because he's not a particularly sticky champion. This makes it so that Alistar is actually doing something instead of senselessly whacking enemies in fights while waiting for his Q to come back up, because now his heal and trample passive are actually up a bit more.

Another idea I have is to make his E an empowered auto instead, that shields him after he autos for X damage (same as the base values for his current heal) for 1.5 seconds, depending on rank, while a nearby ally receives a shield that's 33% as effective. This still makes him weak to poke because he needs to get up close and auto to get the shield, but it also gives him a relatively low CD auto-attack reset on his E. Just a small flat amount; not enough to make him an OP duelist, but enough to make it so that he's not just a wall that can be ignored when his cooldowns are not up. I personally like this idea better because having an all-in support with sustain makes no sense, as all-in lanes are supposed to be weak to poke.

Finally, in case the suggestions above are a no-go, here are two last options I can think of to 'fix' Alistar. Because Alistar players are forced to build CDR 100% of the time to be remotely useful, I think it's fair to give him some CDR per rank in his ult.

Either that, or his passive should be reworked into something like: "Bonus cooldown reduction does not affect Alistar's skill cooldowns, but will make trample do more damage based on CDR from items, runes, buffs, and masteries. Auto attacks reduce the cooldowns of Alistar's basic skills by 1 second," and lower his attack speed growth/tweak his cooldowns accordingly. This rewards Alistar players for being able to go in to land autos while being a champion that is weak to poke. During teamfights, if the enemy team is able to kite him well or if his team doesn't engage well, he will be stuck with long cooldowns.

30 Comments

Fondling Gems2 votes

After the heal nerfs it would be nice if his worked vs true damage, perhaps at 50% efficiency. Red buffs, smite, and things like darius ult often add a feeling of unfairness. You are walking out with your ult on with 100 hp, not a care in the world, then the jgler smites you. It just feels unfun imo.

Leona Jungle Bot1 votes

{quoted}

After the heal nerfs it would be nice if his worked vs true damage, perhaps at 50% efficiency. Red buffs, smite, and things like darius ult often add a feeling of unfairness. You are walking out with your ult on with 100 hp, not a care in the world, then the jgler smites you. It just feels unfun imo.

Yeah, I've noticed that Riot seems to like slapping true damage onto things way too much.

Boulderox1 votes

%-max hp true damage to be exact.

Quepha1 votes

His E and passive suck because his WQ is so strong. If they were replaced with anything different, they would still need to be of a similar power level to his current E and passive to maintain balance.

Fondling Gems1 votes

His passive is nice when you take thunderlords. QW procs it and I believe that if you get the sneaky auto in when headbutting you can also proc it due to your passive

Leona Jungle Bot1 votes

{quoted}

His passive is nice when you take thunderlords. QW procs it and I believe that if you get the sneaky auto in when headbutting you can also proc it due to your passive

You can get a free auto in after they are stunned by your Q, so his passive isn't really needed to proc thunderlords.

Fondling Gems1 votes

True but it is still useful if you just want to headbutt

1374341 votes

Riot removed the sneaky auto when headbutting back in season 4.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Are you sure? I am pretty certain that you can still do it.

Leona Jungle Bot1 votes

{quoted}

His E and passive suck because his WQ is so strong. If they were replaced with anything different, they would still need to be of a similar power level to his current E and passive to maintain balance.

I agree that this W and Q are strong, but that doesn't justify giving him two poorly designed abilities. He never really makes good use of his current Trample because it pushes the lane too easily due to the fact that it deals bonus damage ONLY to minions. Plus, the cooldown problem that he has prevents him from making use of it effectively. His main combo is W+Q, but that makes you waste the Trample damage you'd get for W, so that is just really bad design imo. Also, his heal just feels like... it's there for the sake of filling in an ability slot. It really doesn't go with the rest of his kit, and like I said before, it makes no sense for an all-in champion to have innate sustain.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Well if you consider that for a support he has quite good waveclear, it makes sense to give him a passive and e that are designed for pushing.

Leona Jungle Bot1 votes

{quoted}

Well if you consider that for a support he has quite good waveclear, it makes sense to give him a passive and e that are designed for pushing.

But you're agreeing that Alistar is a champion that is only geared for a support role, even though his secondary role is supposedly a fighter. I also don't believe a skill that passively pushes the lane and kills an entire creep wave whenever you initiate is a good idea to put on a support.

Fondling Gems1 votes

However fighting is going to effect minions one way or another regardless. His p and e just make hard pushing/tower taking towers much easier, something that most supports have trouble with.

Leona Jungle Bot1 votes

{quoted}

However fighting is going to effect minions one way or another regardless. His p and e just make hard pushing/tower taking towers much easier, something that most supports have trouble with.

Most supports have AoE skills, so I have never really struggled with pushing when playing support.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Which supports? Naut and ali can easily clear a wave, taric was alright, and I guess maybe nami? Can't think of any others with decent wave control.

Leona Jungle Bot1 votes

{quoted}

Which supports? Naut and ali can easily clear a wave, taric was alright, and I guess maybe nami? Can't think of any others with decent wave control.

Thresh's Flay is on a pretty low CD with decent base damages since he usually maxes it first, but I admit that wave clear on him is not strong, so he doesn't count. Then you have Annie Blitzcrank Brand Karma Janna Lulu Leona Morgana Nami Nautilus Soraka TahmKench Velkoz Zyra Zilean

Given that Leona needs the Jungler or her lane partner present to clear efficiently

Fondling Gems1 votes

Janna has terrible waveclear unless you max q, leo has bad waveclear, annie is alright after you build a bit of ap, already mentioned nami and naut, morg clear is ok but not great until you have points in e, I will admit tahm and raka are pretty good, and the others are half midlaners and half support. Also NONE of them heal minions anymore. Alistair has the power in his q and w to get an advantage, then can really take advantage of that to build and push waves better (although not as fast as others) than any other.

Leona Jungle Bot1 votes

{quoted}

Janna has terrible waveclear unless you max q, leo has bad waveclear, annie is alright after you build a bit of ap, already mentioned nami and naut, morg clear is ok but not great until you have points in e, I will admit tahm and raka are pretty good, and the others are half midlaners and half support. Also NONE of them heal minions anymore. Alistair has the power in his q and w to get an advantage, then can really take advantage of that to build and push waves better (although not as fast as others) than any other.

His heal got nerfed to the ground and is absolute garbage even on minions now though

Fondling Gems1 votes

true, but it is still more than any other supports do

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

I agree that this W and Q are strong, but that doesn't justify giving him two poorly designed abilities. He never really makes good use of his current Trample because it pushes the lane too easily due to the fact that it deals bonus damage ONLY to minions. Plus, the cooldown problem that he has prevents him from making use of it effectively. His main combo is W+Q, but that makes you waste the Trample damage you'd get for W, so that is just really bad design imo. Also, his heal just feels like... it's there for the sake of filling in an ability slot. It really doesn't go with the rest of his kit, and like I said before, it makes no sense for an all-in champion to have innate sustain.

Pushing is important for a champion that excels at tower diving. The heal is important for letting him and his ally shrug off poke damage, allowing poke to be a weakness that Alistar has without being a complete counter to him. Losing out on a passive proc with the WQ combo is important to making WQ actually a choice over any other pattern instead of objectively being the best option. Also, you missed out on one of the most important parts of Alistar's passive: he becomes ghosted allowing him to position without getting creep blocked. This lets him reliably QW enemies into positions way more fun for Alistar's team than the enemy's and keep up with enemies during his ult so he can use his fat AD steroid to get some damage in while being unkillable.

His other abilities aren't flashy, but they're well designed and accomplish what they need to do.

Leona Jungle Bot1 votes

{quoted}

Pushing is important for a champion that excels at tower diving. The heal is important for letting him and his ally shrug off poke damage, allowing poke to be a weakness that Alistar has without being a complete counter to him. Losing out on a passive proc with the WQ combo is important to making WQ actually a choice over any other pattern instead of objectively being the best option. Also, you missed out on one of the most important parts of Alistar's passive: he becomes ghosted allowing him to position without getting creep blocked. This lets him reliably QW enemies into positions way more fun for Alistar's team than the enemy's and keep up with enemies during his ult so he can use his fat AD steroid to get some damage in while being unkillable.

His other abilities aren't flashy, but they're well designed and accomplish what they need to do.

Pushing and taking an entire wave worth of farm from your ADC are two different things. At level 4 his passive alone does 60 base damage to minions per skill. I agree that Alistar excels at tower diving with his ultimate, but that doesn't mean you should purposely shove the lane so that you can purposely aim to fight under their turret - that is foolish. Between fighting under the enemy turret with your ult and fighting in lane with your ult, the former is always going to be more disadvantageous and should be avoided where possible, partly due to tower damage and partly due to susceptibility to ganks.

His heal doesn't scale at all, and at level 9 (assuming you maxed E) heals allies for a mere 60 health at a 16 second cooldown. This is at level 9. I don't know if it's just me, but the numbers seem a bit ridiculous to me - like "the heal is so negligible that the skill might as well not be there" ridiculous. Riot nerfed the cooldown on his E because it used to be "too strong in shrugging off poke damage," but why not rework the ability instead of making it into a half-assed ability that never fit with the kit in the first place? Some elements to Alistar make him seem like an okay pushing solo laner, and some elements seem to make him seem like an okay support, but that's just it - he's really only 'okay' at both of them. Alistar used to be a great fighter, but his kit was nerfed because he was too strong as a support. That's the problem. If they try to tweak him into being a decent fighter/pusher like he was meant to be, then he'd be too strong in the bot lane, but you can still see the remnants of the once-great toplane pusher that are really out of place on him as a support role. That is why I'd like for Riot to rework Alistar into somebody who's not really bad at trying to be 2 things, but instead someone who's actually decent at both of them.

Yes, his passive ghosts him, but you need to cast a skill in order for it to take effect. Assuming you want to W+Q an enemy, you'll get creep blocked until you manage to actually walk up and W them. If you're talking about the opposite Q+W combo, the Q knocks the enemies airborne, which allows you to walk through and behind them anyway even if you are not ghosted.

With regards to his ultimate making him unkillable, the fact that true damage melts Alistar was brought up in an earlier comment. There are way too many true damage options in the game that straight up counter his damage reduction (red buff, Challenging Smite, Elixir of Sorcery, Vayne, Darius, Fiora, Irelia, etc.) His AD steroid is so out of place for somebody who doesn't scale at all off AD. Might as well have his ultimate make his autos do %max health damage instead, imo, or at least give his attacks a item 3748 effect that scales off his own HP.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Pushing and taking an entire wave worth of farm from your ADC are two different things. At level 4 his passive alone does 60 base damage to minions per skill. I agree that Alistar excels at tower diving with his ultimate, but that doesn't mean you should purposely shove the lane so that you can purposely aim to fight under their turret - that is foolish. Between fighting under the enemy turret with your ult and fighting in lane with your ult, the former is always going to be more disadvantageous and should be avoided where possible, partly due to tower damage and partly due to susceptibility to ganks.

His heal doesn't scale at all, and at level 9 (assuming you maxed E) heals allies for a mere 60 health at a 16 second cooldown. This is at level 9. I don't know if it's just me, but the numbers seem a bit ridiculous to me - like "the heal is so negligible that the skill might as well not be there" ridiculous. Riot nerfed the cooldown on his E because it used to be "too strong in shrugging off poke damage," but why not rework the ability instead of making it into a half-assed ability that never fit with the kit in the first place? Some elements to Alistar make him seem like an okay pushing solo laner, and some elements seem to make him seem like an okay support, but that's just it - he's really only 'okay' at both of them. Alistar used to be a great fighter, but his kit was nerfed because he was too strong as a support. That's the problem. If they try to tweak him into being a decent fighter/pusher like he was meant to be, then he'd be too strong in the bot lane, but you can still see the remnants of the once-great toplane pusher that are really out of place on him as a support role. That is why I'd like for Riot to rework Alistar into somebody who's not really bad at trying to be 2 things, but instead someone who's actually decent at both of them.

Yes, his passive ghosts him, but you need to cast a skill in order for it to take effect. Assuming you want to W+Q an enemy, you'll get creep blocked until you manage to actually walk up and W them. If you're talking about the opposite Q+W combo, the Q knocks the enemies airborne, which allows you to walk through and behind them anyway even if you are not ghosted.

With regards to his ultimate making him unkillable, the fact that true damage melts Alistar was brought up in an earlier comment. There are way too many true damage options in the game that straight up counter his damage reduction (red buff, Challenging Smite, Elixir of Sorcery, Vayne, Darius, Fiora, Irelia, etc.) His AD steroid is so out of place for somebody who doesn't scale at all off AD. Might as well have his ultimate make his autos do %max health damage instead, imo, or at least give his attacks a item 3748 effect that scales off his own HP.

Alistar's passive is not strong enough to take cs from his adc no matter how bad they are.

If you're good at tower diving then you want to push because then you have the enemy pressured into a corner and get to work on taking out their tower.

Your complaints about his heal all come down to having weak numbers which, as I stated before, is due to the power of Alistar's W and Q taking up a huge chunk of his power budget. Again, anything used to replace Alistar's E and passive would need equally pathetic-looking numbers to maintain balance.

Alistar is not really bad at trying to do two things. He is absolutely amazing, borderline best-in-class at two things (hard engage and peel) with some abilities that let him supplement those skills into a complete kit.

Leona Jungle Bot1 votes

{quoted}

Alistar's passive is not strong enough to take cs from his adc no matter how bad they are.

If you're good at tower diving then you want to push because then you have the enemy pressured into a corner and get to work on taking out their tower.

Your complaints about his heal all come down to having weak numbers which, as I stated before, is due to the power of Alistar's W and Q taking up a huge chunk of his power budget. Again, anything used to replace Alistar's E and passive would need equally pathetic-looking numbers to maintain balance.

Alistar is not really bad at trying to do two things. He is absolutely amazing, borderline best-in-class at two things (hard engage and peel) with some abilities that let him supplement those skills into a complete kit.

You're speaking as if 2 strong skills justify anything. Look at champions like Rek'sai - he gets not 3, but 6 amazing skills which include an AoE knockup on an 8 second cooldown. Not to mention, you can build tank on her and still deal tons of damage. Sejuani has an AoE knockup, an AoE %health damage spell, an AoE 70% slow and an AoE 1.75s stun. Again, she does damage even while building tank because she scales off HP. With how broken a lot of these champions are, you really can't use "his W and Q take up his whole power budget" as an argument for giving him only 3 useful skills including his ultimate.

And no, Alistar has terrible peel compared to Thresh, Nautilus, Braum, and all the other supports that seem to do his job at hard-engage/peeling better than him. As I stated earlier, he only has two useful skills and the cooldowns on them are abysmal. If E is a mediocre skill on a champion like Alistar, then that means he really only has 2 skills to freely use - once every 13 seconds in a teamfight. That is just... sad.

You're completely missing the point of this thread - I never said his W and Q weren't strong. The issue is that once he uses that combo he is running around for 13 seconds doing nothing during a teamfight - and 13 seconds is a long time. Keep in mind that his W+Q combo can easily be countered by a single Flay or cheap displacement ability like Condemn, making him useless for 13 seconds again.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

You're speaking as if 2 strong skills justify anything. Look at champions like Rek'sai - he gets not 3, but 6 amazing skills which include an AoE knockup on an 8 second cooldown. Not to mention, you can build tank on her and still deal tons of damage. Sejuani has an AoE knockup, an AoE %health damage spell, an AoE 70% slow and an AoE 1.75s stun. Again, she does damage even while building tank because she scales off HP. With how broken a lot of these champions are, you really can't use "his W and Q take up his whole power budget" as an argument for giving him only 3 useful skills including his ultimate.

And no, Alistar has terrible peel compared to Thresh, Nautilus, Braum, and all the other supports that seem to do his job at hard-engage/peeling better than him. As I stated earlier, he only has two useful skills and the cooldowns on them are abysmal. If E is a mediocre skill on a champion like Alistar, then that means he really only has 2 skills to freely use - once every 13 seconds in a teamfight. That is just... sad.

You're completely missing the point of this thread - I never said his W and Q weren't strong. The issue is that once he uses that combo he is running around for 13 seconds doing nothing during a teamfight - and 13 seconds is a long time.

Alistar's W and Q completely eclipse everything you mentioned. They don't automatically win the game nothing you compared them to even comes close.

And your claim that Alistar has terrible peel compared to anything is laughable, especially Thresh, Nautlius, and Braum.

Leona Jungle Bot1 votes

{quoted}

Alistar's W and Q completely eclipse everything you mentioned. They don't automatically win the game nothing you compared them to even comes close.

And your claim that Alistar has terrible peel compared to anything is laughable, especially Thresh, Nautlius, and Braum.

"And your claim that Alistar has terrible peel compared to anything is laughable, especially Thresh, Nautlius, and Braum." Can't tell if you're trolling or not at this point, but I'll just stop replying to you now. Looking at your past forum posts, you seem to be the type of person who likes to play the devil's advocate and argue for the sake of arguing, which really isn't helping anyone. You are completely disregarding my points about CDR and general utility/usefulness outside of 1 combo. How does a good Sejuani engage not win a fight? You're implying that unlike a Sejuani or Rek'sai, an Alistar W and Q automatically wins the game. If you're going to be making weak hypocritical arguments like that I'm not going to waste my time repeating my points countlessly. http://loldb.gameguyz.com/news/the-best-champions-for-peeling.html I just googled "support champions with best peel" and nowhere does it say Alistar. In fact, I only find links to back up my examples. I'm guessing you've never even played Alistar before because once he engages he can't peel for 13 seconds. In the case that you actually haven't even touched the champion before, I don't get why you bother replying to this thread that does not concern you.

Lothàrs Edge1 votes

I enjoy going hybrid-ad/ap Alistar. 100-0 just fine and when you have ulti up you're literally an auto-attacking monster.

Leona Jungle Bot1 votes

{quoted}

I enjoy going hybrid-ad/ap Alistar. 100-0 just fine and when you have ulti up you're literally an auto-attacking monster.

What's the build?

Lothàrs Edge1 votes

18-12-0 (fervor/as much %dmg as possible) <-- my usual masteries unless i feel like im really gonna get outlaned ad/ap/as runes

sword+pots or corrupting potion

nashtooth/rageblade/boots(swfitness/merc/etc)/hexrevolver/ <-- core

if im against at least 1 tank then ill get dominik's and finish with trinityforce and/or phantom dancer

Leona Jungle Bot1 votes

{quoted}

18-12-0 (fervor/as much %dmg as possible) <-- my usual masteries unless i feel like im really gonna get outlaned ad/ap/as runes

sword+pots or corrupting potion

nashtooth/rageblade/boots(swfitness/merc/etc)/hexrevolver/ <-- core

if im against at least 1 tank then ill get dominik's and finish with trinityforce and/or phantom dancer

Do you rush rageblade first, or...? You wouldn't get that power spike until you get all of your core items, so that doesn't sound like a very fun laning phase either way for you...

Lothàrs Edge1 votes

Sometimes. I gauge whether or not I can surprise them with being aggressive (having my masteries/runes/sword gives me a lot more early game damage than people assume) or if I need to play passive. Either or once I get tooth and/or rageblade it becomes really fun.

If the laning phase is difficult then I'll add a few more points in E. With trample/Q damage, csing under turret is fairly easy unless they're able to harass me under tower while I have some decent sustain.

You can also do this in the jungle. His Q provides the CC and start at the small golems for the stun buff. Devourer will add a lot more dmg and his ganks aren't half bad.

If you play passively and hit 6, it becomes really difficult to kill you even with a gank from the jungler as long as you don't use your ultimate too late. If they even think about coming close to tower range you can easily Q and W them into turret.

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