Boards›Gameplay

Why gut champions so hard and leave them to rot, then create new FOTM picks?

Fadedpf··45 votes·3,532 views

Honestly. Some of the coolest champions imo are completely left to rot by riot right now.

Here are some examples.

Elise - was gutted hard for basically being the best jungler out there. Still begging for a new passive and buffs. Now there are tons of jungle picks even Gragas found a new role after being gutted from his ap days.

Warwick patch 4.20 turned him into a god, and riot made the jungle mission impossible. What did they expect? They basically carpet bombed him in the next patch. (one of my favorite champions)

Kassadin - no need to explain

Taric He was actually good in the first few seasons but has been nerfed very hard. Then they release people like Thresh who has it all (except a heal) just a really sub optimal support pick. But hes got point and click stun. Yay?

Yorick Riot basically hates this guy

MissFortune Got nerfed a lot, ult doesn't scale off AD she needs a lot of help

You can talk about strategic diversity and all that. But rewind the things you have destroyed and left to rot. Tanks were okay before cinderhulk but it was really the toxic assassin meta being nerfed and the introduction of cinderhulk that made the game healthy today. So now that the game is in a good spot please give these champs some serious attention.

Edit: You might think MF is fine but I was just listing an example of a nerfed champion then they make newer and better ADCs aka this abomination Kalista . MF will get a gameplay update soon here.

110 Comments

Troy2426219 votes

Actually, they carpet bombed WW, then went ahead and hit him with a tremendous amount of collateral damage by nerfing the item that made him strong.

Fadedpf5 votes

I understand the item 3715 nerf. But why his favorite enchantment? Devourer is crappy now

Narasimha9 votes

The problem is there's no middle ground, atleast one that isn't realistically attainable. On one hand, you want Devourer to be appealing to people who can build up stacks quickly. On the other hand, you don't want to make a scenario with an afk jungle farmer for 30 minutes, who then starts deleting the enemy team when he finishes up.

Saianna5 votes

Nasus ?

Narasimha1 votes

And why do you think people always hate facing one? It's not because it's op. It's because you're playing against someone who is determined to make the game PvE instead of PvP.

Saianna3 votes

It's not like i'm against "Pve farm-bot" or in favor. But if Riot nerfed jungle afk farming, then so they should also pick Nasus & Veigar and change them..

And it's not because Nasus is OP(1). It's fact he can freeze a lane with leaving pretty much no counterplay for his enemy. Which means game changes into just 2 lanes "where things happen".

They have taken it away from jungle (i mean u can still stack, but it's not as great as it used to be), lanes shouldn't be different.

(1) small explanation. I was playing SR long time ago as Teemo Top. It was maybe in season 2 or 3. I have faced alot of Nasuses and I've made their lives miserable. Not that i'm skilled, or they sucked.... It's just maybe luck? Anyways, Dunno how things changed till now with Nasus. I've played WW with Devourer pre-nerf for some freelo normal wins (lol) so i know how strong it was :)

Vicarious1175 votes

I absolutely hate when people complain about the Warwick nerfs and his jungle item nerfs. I mean it's not like he was slightly stronger then other junglers and is now unplayable, he's still as viable as he was beforehand and far from underpowered as a jungler. The issue is that he can't one shot literally anything on the map with a point and click suppression ult that will still kill you even if you QSS it. He was by all definitions COMPLETELY and UTTERLY broken before they FIXED him and his items.

So stop complaining, everyone please just stop! Just cause you no longer get freelo with such a stupidly easy champ to play doesn't mean he's no longer good, he still does his job perfectly fine if not better then quite a few others like him.

As for the rest, i don't care much, I've seen Elise's dominate still, as well as Taric's carry their bot lanes and teams to victory. Could Elise use some love? Perhaps, but she has so much utility and potential damage that buffing her could create even worse balancing issues. And could Taric use some attention too? Obviously, he's stale as shit! The problem is he's not the only one and faaaaaaar from a fan favorite, so Riot's working on champs that more people play before they get to those like Taric.

Velasan4 votes

{quoted}

I absolutely hate when people complain about the Warwick nerfs and his jungle item nerfs. I mean it's not like he was slightly stronger then other junglers and is now unplayable, he's still as viable as he was beforehand and far from underpowered as a jungler. The issue is that he can't one shot literally anything on the map with a point and click suppression ult that will still kill you even if you QSS it. He was by all definitions COMPLETELY and UTTERLY broken before they FIXED him and his items.

So stop complaining, everyone please just stop! Just cause you no longer get freelo with such a stupidly easy champ to play doesn't mean he's no longer good, he still does his job perfectly fine if not better then quite a few others like him.

As for the rest, i don't care much, I've seen Elise's dominate still, as well as Taric's carry their bot lanes and teams to victory. Could Elise use some love? Perhaps, but she has so much utility and potential damage that buffing her could create even worse balancing issues. And could Taric use some attention too? Obviously, he's stale as shit! The problem is he's not the only one and faaaaaaar from a fan favorite, so Riot's working on champs that more people play before they get to those like Taric.

Just wanted to say tired of hearing this. Ww could never one shot anyone even with the item, and now he absolutely can't. The point was to take someone close to half, q them, then have blood scent activate.

Yes he was OP for like a patch, but they took like a hundred damage off his ult and increased the cd on two of his abilities. People who make these arguments never played warwick or at least not much. After all the item still exists, and the true damage smite still exists albeit both weaker than before. Middle of a tank meta and a sustain duelist with hp dmg is not a favorable pick should tell you something.

Besides, you do realize champs like malzahar exist right? He can drop two dot's on you and suppress from a farther range with ignite and actually one shot you. No jg item required! item 3715

Doctor Dyment5 votes

Riot hates Yorick? Son, have you ever even played Yorick, or seen one in action? Its fucking terrifying.

Narasimha4 votes

Kass and MF are pretty fine.

Elise has... issues. She needs major help.

And everyone else on your list has been scheduled at some point or another for a rework, so they're being kept low key until then.

Critmaster Garen7 votes

{quoted}

Kass and MF are pretty fine.

Elise has... issues. She needs major help.

And everyone else on your list has been scheduled at some point or another for a rework, so they're being kept low key until then.

elise has issues because all melee/ranged champions in this game are broken. look at jayce. they usually have only strengths and no weaknesses. thats their problem.

they take a shit on most melee champs by poking the hell out of them at range, while matching their duelling power in melee, in case they get caught.

or they just play passive/build bruiser and then all in ranged champs in melee form.

you have either this, where theyre far too opressive when played in lane, or their numbers are tuned down enough that theyre irrelevant for the game overall.

and kassadins entire problem is his broken ult. he never had a phase in this game where he was balanced. he was either top tier broken op pick or ban, or he was shit tier. there was enver a middle ground. its because for some reason the balance team is in denial and doesnt understand this will never change unless they give him a new ult, or put some heavy restrictions on his mobility. (mechanical restrictions, not mana costs).

the same goes for leblanc whos currently one of the top picks in solo que again.

flash is op. its absolutely broken, why every champion picks it. you put one on a low cooldown in a champions kit and he will be equally broken, no matter how much you fiddle with the numbers.

A Miss Fortune3 votes

I think Kassadin needs a buff, nothing huge just one small buff. Miss Fortune needs a tiny buff just to give her more utility and reliability (which they're doing I believe to her E.). But yeah, Elise definitely needs buffs. She has extremely long cooldowns and the damage she does isn't enough, the whole reason she even exists in-game is because of her stun but even that is nearly impossible to land.

I think Elise could be reworked into being a legitimate Spider Queen and less of a "I missed my stun so I guess I'll see you guys in an hour or so."

A Miss Fortune4 votes

MF'S ULT SCALES OFF AD MF'S ULT SCALES OFF AD MF'S ULT SCALES OFF AD MF'S ULT SCALES OFF AD MF'S ULT SCALES OFF AD MF'S ULT SCALES OFF AD

IT APPLIES 2 STACKS OF HER PASSIVE, WHICH SCALES OFF AD DOING 12% OF HER AD

Sorry, I main Miss Fortune and it's kinda annoying when you get the daily complaint MF's ult doesn't scale off AD.

Miss Fortune really isn't that bad of a champion either, I find myself carrying 9/10 games I play with her. She has a great early game where she can outtrade most ADCs easily and poke hard while also being able to effectively gank and roam, her mid game is one of the best due to her ultimate, slows, grevious wounds, and high damage output in duels or teamfights, and her late game is actually not as bad as people say it is. Since MF's W scales off AD she can do around +130 more AD (as magic damage) late game, it's really hard to counterbuild her too since she does a ton of mixed damage. She's not the best ADC in the game but definitely my favoritesand definitely one of the best damage outputs.

Vistha Kai2 votes

Funny you say that, since she can't properly build her kit either.

Or do you build Void Staff just so your AD scalling does anything?

ChaoticPinecone4 votes

You dont need a Void Staff to make your AD-scaling-magic-damage hit hard. See e.g. Corki, whose only physical damage ability is his E.

Vistha Kai8 votes

Then you notice item 3020 are the most popular boots on him.

ChaoticPinecone2 votes

what about Ezreal? Kogmaw?

Vistha Kai1 votes

Ezreal gets either Ionians or Zerks. Durr. Why a hyper carry scaling with AS build Sorcs instead of Zerks?

ChaoticPinecone2 votes

lol. i KNOW the builds for the champions. my entire point is there are many ADCs who have physical-scaling-magic-damage out there. it doesnt matter if she cant build a void staff in her kit, since its a bonus.

Vistha Kai1 votes

It means she can't operate at full capacity, because her kit is flipped. Having 2 and a half spell is pretty bad if your competition has 4, no?

ChaoticPinecone2 votes

are you downvoting everyone that doesnt agree with you? lol.

No - its not. Having mixed damage as an ADC gives you a stronger early/midgame and makes it harder to itemize against. And having AD scale into magic damage is better than having magic damage that scales with AP (e.g. Varus).

and if all of her AD scaling was switched into physical damage, MF would be the most OP thing ever. 6-42% bonus AD as physical damage per autoattack? an ult that does max 1000 + 384% AD? she would be gutted with those kinds of numbers.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

Uh what?

You can do Magic Damage without building Ability Power. Miss Fortune's main damage is Physical Damage from both of her abilities and auto attacks, but she still does a ton of Magic Damage. Making it impossible to fully build against her like a Draven, Caitlyn, or Ashe, where if you just build Armor the entire game they won't do much damage to you at all.

Vistha Kai3 votes

Hybrid damage is a double-edged sword.

Lordofthepittt4 votes

You can't beat Kalista... so she becomes an 'abomination'? I guess people just don't understand the concept of counter picking.

Keevalroy14 votes

{quoted}

You can't beat Kalista... so she becomes an 'abomination'? I guess people just don't understand the concept of counter picking.

She's a tumor on a pogostick, and to be honest, I don't even consider her a champion. Nothing that toxic should be allowed to exist on the roster. How she managed to be green-lit and to go through the playtest team without anything changing about that kit or at least her ridiculous fucking passive is...well at this point it's not beyond me anymore since I've come to expect it.

Also, it's more than just "Oh I can't beat her so she's too strong;" we can beat her, it's just that she's so obnoxious to play against that it mentally hurts to see her on the loading screen because we know she's going to boing boing boing boing boing triple kill until we manage to catch her, or quit out of sheer frustration.

CertainlyT truly has a knack for creating monsters that are only fun for the player, and agonizing for everyone else.

Lordofthepittt1 votes

I don't even understand how she could be obnoxious. I think she is pretty balanced, to be honest. I feel like there are other champions that are alot worse to see in a game than Kalista.

Keevalroy5 votes

I don't even understand how she could be obnoxious.

_Hop, hop, hop, hop, hop, hop, hop, hop, hop, hop, hop, hop, hop, hop, _ followed by Rend which can do more damage than NUNU WITH SMITE and can also be used on players, and if it's not enough damage, it also slows, so she can catch up to them as they try to run, or kite as they attempt to catch her.

I think she is pretty balanced, to be honest.

You play and obviously like her, and can find nothing wrong with her? Not even one problematic part of her kit that might be frustrating for people who have to play against her? Find something, anything, and your empathy levels are already ahead of the moron that created her.

I feel like there are other champions that are alot worse to see in a game than Kalista.

Please tell me who they are and why.

Ungrateful Thug3 votes

I don't ever want to see Warwick in the state that he was when Devourer was first released. As soon as he got Devourer and his ult he would just start one shotting people. And god forbid if he got to late game because he would drain tank the entire enemy team while killing anything that couldn't run from him. Though, I attribute that more to Devourer than anything else. Giving an infinite scaling item that starts off with 40 magic damage on hit (and being relatively cheap) was unfathomable from a balance standpoint.

BluePolarizer6 votes

It was challenging smite actually. He didn't need devourer to delete ppl, all he needed was 350 gold and level 6.

Mistress Madoka1 votes

Yeah it was pretty horrible.

Still fun to play as tho :P

Lugg2 votes

One problem that you have in balance is when you nerf a champion, the champions that he/she counters are automatically made stronger. That causes shifts in the FOTM.

But otherwise you were right on with most of your post. I think Warwick needs just a slight nerf and he would be fine. Kass got nerfed to hell, but they buffed him back up to a point where he is viable again. He just seems weak since most assassins are kinda OP. Taric is in a decent spot since his last buff. Yorick definitely needs something. Totally agree on Elise, MF ,and Kalista.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Kassadin is so viable, he needs 4 items to deal any damage, but nobody will wait that long and close the game while killing Kassadin at least 10 times over in the process.

Lugg1 votes

People think he isn't viable because 90% of assassins are OP as hell. Kass can get to the back line, kill the carry and get out. That is the assassins job.

Assassins aren't supposed to do that and then kill the entire other team. That is why Kass is balanced and other assassins aren't right now.

Vistha Kai1 votes

If Kass can do that it means you and the 4 other dudes were AFK for the first 20 minutes of the game.

Kassadin's damage if he lands everything: 630+2.1AP. Let's assume he has 700 AP. That's 2100 raw damage.

For the comparison the squishiest ADC has 1870.7 health at level 18. If you take the base MR into the account, that adds up to 2432 effective health at level 18.

Lugg1 votes

I still see him carry games, so he can't be very weak.

Wiggle Dat Butt1 votes

If they made MissFortune ult scale off of AD no one would play any other adc

Critmaster Garen20 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wiggle Dat Butt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5fwqwGNo,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-06-07T01:28:01.762+0000)

If they made MissFortune ult scale off of AD no one would play any other adc

it does scale off ad...

she was never nerfed, they just moved the ad scaling to her w, which now applies on her ult, and did MUCH less damage before the changes. i think it was up to 8 magic damage on hit flat? the change was supposed to increase her overall damage by having w scale with ad and apply on the ult, instead of having the ad scaling on the ult directly. so she would get the scaling on both abilites instead of 1.

it was intended as a buff. mf was never actually nerfed, the changes were always supposed to make her more viable.

Wiggle Dat Butt2 votes

I always thought it scaled off AP, I don't adc much but last time I played her AP MF ult was a pentakill if team was stunned

EndlessSorcerer8 votes

The ultimate itself scales of AP. However, it allies stacks of her W passive, which scales off AD.

Therefore, her ultimate indirectly scales with AD.

Fadedpf3 votes

It doesnt scale off AD. impure shots don't even do that much damage they nerfed her and said "this is going to help her guys"

Critmaster Garen10 votes

{quoted}

It doesnt scale off AD. impure shots don't even do that much damage they nerfed her and said "this is going to help her guys"

her w scales off ad. her ult applies her w since the changes. hence her ult scales off ad and ap.

impure shots used to deal even less damage before they moved the scaling there. with a decent amount of ad, the on hit damage stacks much higher than it used to.

Vistha Kai3 votes

Yeah, except the fact her magic damage scales of AD and physical damage scales of AP.

You know how terrible it is for a champion that never builds AP?

RottedApples1 votes

did you know shaco has never been buffed

Pæan6 votes

The moment shaco gets buffed is the moment everyone under diamond/platinum cries he is OP. His Q range was reduced, his E slow was lessened. I just want a set of QoL buffs for ulti and boxes or a small scale rework.

Shaco is my favorite and most played champ and I would love for him to see some love </3

Hoactzin1 votes

I thought shaco's current power level was because riot is trying to move away from Champs What Fuck You Over And You Can't Do Shit About It. I find his ult genuinely fun to play against, because it forces me to think, but the rest of shaco is basically "where does he normally place boxes and how can i mitigate how bad he fucks me up when he jumps out of the bush with a goddamn invisible flash."

Pæan1 votes

The thing is, You CAN do something about shaco at really all points of the game.
An early pink ward or even well placed trinket ward will kill shaco if he decides to invade your jungler. His Q is the only thing that allows him to assassinate or escape. If he uses Q to jump in on more than one person it is likely he will be insta killed because he is literally one of the squishiest champs in the game.

He thrives in soloQ and always will because communication is never that good. Shaco walks into your red buff jungle area and kills your jungler after a full 5 seconds meanwhile mid and top/bot are merrily farming away leaving your jungler pissed and feeling helpless.

Prepare for the novel! :D " I find his ult genuinely fun to play against, because it forces me to think" I agree and disagree about this point. The ulti can be a fun "guessing game" but that all ends by one single click, there isnt much thought in clicking on a shaco and checking if he has items.

""where does he normally place boxes" it's kind of like teemo shrooms where there are normal spots that are chokepoints, and then each shaco has their own playstyle or strategy that will mix is up and keep things interested.

" how can i mitigate how bad he fucks me up when he jumps out of the bush with a goddamn invisible flash" if a shaco is ahead and you are completely alone with no vision anywhere.... Shaco is an assassin when built full AD so you will die, much like any other assassin who preys on isolated targets. If there is more than one person then shaco will likely die, unless he is HUGELY ahead. otherwise he is still a solo-target assassin.

Early game is where shaco proves his merit... Either he gets fed, gets a laner fed, or he is now completely and utterly useless outside of smiting baron/dragon. He is extremely feast of famine, I agree he can be overbearing if he hugely snowballs but which assassin isnt? That's their job and the whole reason for choosing an assassin.

Edit: You can see the Q "poof" anywhere on the map, literally anywhere including the fog of war. Watch your dragon/baron pit around 2:05-2:15 to see if there is a poof meaning shaco is either stealing your 2nd buff or killing your jungler there soon

lDontLiftIcarry1 votes

no eve? Pft you don't know what being gutted and gimped at the same time are/is.

TotalJerk4 votes

Eve has been patched at least twice this season. Also, she's seen a spike in pro play. Whenever she was picked, the entire enemy team was terrified of pushing their lanes because they had no reliable means of knowing when she would show up. Pro games are already full of excessive emphasis on safe play, Evelynn exacerbates that.

lDontLiftIcarry1 votes

lmfao don't even talk to me about what you think you know about eve. Spare me your stupidity involving the pro scene.

TotalJerk4 votes

My stupidity? She WAS picked multiple times in pro play recently, that is an undisputable fact. On top of that, the casters themselves were pointing out how the laners were playing especially safe because Eve couldn't be kept track of.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Fadedpf

Stop pretending Ekko "doesn't have burst" and give his ult a mana cost.
Gameplay351 comments
205
votes
How I feel when trying to click bard glitchy portal entrance
Gameplay33 comments
142
votes
"I've learned to hit my enemies 3 times, lets add some ridiculous damage to that"
Gameplay192 comments
137
votes
There is no reason your OWN minions should hurt you.
Gameplay31 comments
126
votes
"We removed grievous wounds from MF its hidden power and toxic!"
Gameplay93 comments
115
votes
Good to know armor is getting nerfed.
Gameplay136 comments
110
votes