How to fix the Cho'Gath stoneplate abuse without gutting either.

Bârd·Jul 22, 2017·9 votes·736 views

Instead of doubling your health, make it halve the damage you take.

Your durability would be nearly identical. This would result in the following changes.

Champions with HP scalings unaffected by the damage drop (Cho, Taric, Maokai) and items/effects with HP ratios unaffected by the damage drop (Locket, FOTM, SBP, CoC) can no longer abuse the item for unintended levels of scaling.
Lifesteal off of a stoneplate champion is reduced, since lifesteal is based on the damage you deal and not just your AD.
Stoneplate users are now weak against flat true damage (so buying one against Darius, Amumu, or Cho is questionable).

26 Comments

SalronJul 22, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Lifesteal off of a stoneplate champion is reduced

Why does this item need such a massive buff?

BârdJul 22, 20172 votes

I'd say the removal of stoneplate HP ratio abuse (which was, face it, much of its allure) and the vulnerability to flat true damage would make up for that.

If it was too powerful, a special exception could be made for this effect.

Grjjm ReaperJul 22, 20171 votes

item 3193 with 250 bonus health when active, and gains an aura slows doing 6% of the current hp of all enemy units seems balanced enough for 5 seconds.

instead of the current 40 % hp

BârdJul 22, 20172 votes

Huh?

That's not stoneplate anymore, that's a Randuins that is useless unless it's your last item.
If it's flat, a 4.5 HP tank would be able to initiate and slow everybody in the area by 270 MS. Most champions walk around at under 400 MS even with T2 boots. If you (god forbid) meant a PERCENT slow, that's a 270% slow. That's not a slow anymore. It's a root.

Grjjm ReaperJul 22, 20171 votes

heyyyy, root all enemies after 2 second stack for 3 seconds is OP and balanced at same time

changed 250 hp to 500 hp then?

Similar to Alistar Trample debuff

LankPantsJul 22, 20172 votes

Any champ with flat healing breaks this interaction.

Xin, Renekton, Mord, Cho'gath, Rek'sai, Irelia any champ with a flat heal is massively benefited by these changes. Before poping a Stoneplate effectively diluted your healing, since it made each 2 points of healing worth only 1 in effect. With this change it empowers healing since healed HP becomes harder to remove.

Stoneplate users are now weak against flat true damage (so buying one against Darius, Amumu, or Cho is questionable).

One of the main reasons a Stoneplate is bought is to deal with True damage effectively. It's kind of needed since tanks HP options got crippled in the mid season update.

RexxieeJul 22, 20171 votes

That would be a massive buff to the item, 50% damage reduction >>>>> 2x health because the health only works the best when you are full hp while you can use the other at any time (making the item even more faceroll to use) not even to mention that the health one is weaker to vayne and other %hp users, which counters tanks by design, and not only that but its much stronger vs lifesteal too.

It just needs a flat nerf, make it like +75% health from +100% and maybe take off 5 armor and mr from the item.

BârdJul 22, 20172 votes

No, That's just wrong.

When you are talking about straight up durability, this causes no change.

When stoneplate ends, you retain the % HP you had at the end of its effect.

Activating 50% damage reduction with 5000 HP and being hit with 1000 damage means you end at 4500 health.

Activating double HP with 5000 HP and then taking 1000 damage takes you to 9000 HP, which comes down to (big surprise) 4500 health when stoneplate ends.

Activating 50% damage reduction with 5000 HP and being hit by a silver bolts proc makes you take 600 true damage, taking you to 4400 health.

Activating double HP with 5000 HP and being hit by a silver bolts proc makes you take 1200 true damage, taking you to 8800 health, but that goes down to 4400 at the end of the duration.

Activating either effect at 500 HP means they have to deal 1000 damage to kill you.

The only damage type with a difference is Flat True damage, which actually does MORE to the 50% damage reduction than the double HP.

LankPantsJul 22, 20171 votes

The only damage type with a difference is Flat True damage, which actually does MORE to the 50% damage reduction than the double HP.

That's not true. What about %non-true damage. If you have 5000 HP and take 10% then

With live Stoneplate you take 10000x0.1=1000 damage With your Stoneplate you'd take 5000x0.1x0.5=250 damage

Both before resists of course.

Since %HP damage is both more present than true damage and a greater threat to tanks (generally) this most likely would be a buff to the item. It also helps any champ with healing as well.

meowwow7Jul 22, 20171 votes

fotm scales on the people who are casted on so it will shield the tanky supp's adc the same amount regardless of support hp and coc is usually popped before gargoyle due to you having to engage with a heavy cc/ gap closer before you can get in range for the full effect

meowwow7Jul 22, 20171 votes

and just think about poor ali there with an item that quite literally replicates his niche for tower diving

Grjjm ReaperJul 22, 20171 votes

we have an Alistar ?

BârdJul 22, 20171 votes

Usually, coc is popped early, but some champions end up using it a few seconds into a fight, allowing it to persist after the HP boost ends.

TahmKench comes to mind (hell, even without CoC, Thick Skin is insane with Stoneplate).

meowwow7Jul 22, 20171 votes

well idk how stoneplate affects tahm and that's the reason i'm saving my ip up is because i want him into my roster

LankPantsJul 22, 20171 votes

He gains a massive amount of grey health. Grey health doesn't care if it exceeds his max HP value, he can stack it for as long as he has HP to lose.

Meep ManJul 22, 20171 votes

I'd rather it just give you extra BASE HEALTH instead of extra BONUS HEALTH. That way it won't make Health Scaling champions get too much boost from it.

BârdJul 22, 20172 votes

That would completely gut the item.

If it only effected base HP and not total, this would be taking something that gives 3-5k health and crushing its balls until it only gave 2.4k at the absolute highest.

It wouldn't be worth the trade off, so it would become irrelevant.

Cho and Locket wouldn't abuse it anymore, but other HP scaling effects would be intact (Taric heal, TK shield, CoC, SBP, Maokai to a lesser extent) making it impossible to buff its ratio and keeping the item in the gutter.

LankPantsJul 22, 20171 votes

You missed the point. He's not saying just have the item scale off base HP, he's saying have it give base HP. For example

Before Stoneplate you have 2000 base HP and 2000 bonus HP On live you pop Stoneplate and have 2000 base HP and 6000 bonus HP With this change you pop Stoneplate and have 6000 base HP and 2000 bonus HP

The amount of HP you get remains the same, it just crushes bonus HP interactions.

Grjjm ReaperJul 22, 20171 votes

I saw and item today... item 1401 Imagine that on Chogath with item 3065 item 3748 item 3083 item 3193 and 6x =8k hp stacks then he ults 2500 damage GG every adc in the game