Why isn't Cull categorized as a Gold Income item in the shop?

woobee·Jul 15, 2016·78 votes·2,373 views

Genuinely curious.

54 Comments

RoranaJul 15, 20168 votes

I think its so players wont get confused and buy it when they support, because you need to farm to get the gold from it

woobeeJul 15, 20162 votes

I mean, Gold Income items aren't exclusive for supports. Cull is a Gold Income item, just not a Gold Income item for supports.

JimmyyyJul 15, 20165 votes

Dude gave you an answer because you asked the question 'Why?' and you refuse to accept his answer as a possibility. Gr8 thread

DehitayJul 15, 20164 votes

it's more about not having the limiter. You're only allowed to have one gold income item. But Cull doesn't fall into that category.

woobeeJul 15, 20161 votes

Well maybe they should change that. Building Cull and any other gold income item would counteract it.

Pierce The VealJul 15, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Solis Umbra,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5MHzA9WR,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-07-15T01:19:59.417+0000)

Well maybe they should change that. Building Cull and any other gold income item would counteract it.

Huh. Cull+relic shield duo top seeming pretty nifty all of a sudden.

woobeeJul 15, 20161 votes

Perhaps I misworded my previous post. I meant that having Cull would completely nullify the other item's usefulness, especially something like So, which cancels its passive when you kill a minion.

Pierce The VealJul 15, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Solis Umbra,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5MHzA9WR,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-15T09:46:08.163+0000)

Perhaps I misworded my previous post. I meant that having Cull would completely nullify the other item's usefulness, especially something like So, which cancels its passive when you kill a minion.

Yeah I understood.

Nonetheless, I do wonder how relic shield reacts with cull? Cull gives a large amount of gold in advantage, so if killing a minion with it counts for both players' culls, then we could potentially have a case where cull would be incredibly effective. Plus, face of the mountain is actually a pretty good item to have. 10% max health shield? On a double tanky top lane?

From there the jungle could be divvied up to the laners to maximize gold and exp.

It Hertz When IPJul 15, 20161 votes

Don't say anything or they'll nerf it.

Pierce The VealJul 16, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5MHzA9WR,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-15T11:26:01.203+0000)

Don't say anything or they'll nerf it.

Good point. But I can see this actually being a little strong.

AtanchanJul 15, 20161 votes

You can already see this in typical bot lanes with Relic Shield; Relic does in fact proc Cull.

Pierce The VealJul 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You can already see this in typical bot lanes with Relic Shield; Relic does in fact proc Cull.

That's really cool. Now to get one of my two remaining friends to try it with me...

One refuses to play ranked. The other only likes to play solo.

DarkRitualJul 15, 20161 votes

Try grtting 100 cs in an average game as a tank support. You would need to either actively splitpush or take lane minions from others to finish the bonus gold. Spoils of war stacks don't replenish fast enougj to make it a worthwhile buy.

Pierce The VealJul 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Try grtting 100 cs in an average game as a tank support. You would need to either actively splitpush or take lane minions from others to finish the bonus gold. Spoils of war stacks don't replenish fast enougj to make it a worthwhile buy.

Except the point would be to not have a tank support. In fact, you wouldn't be sending botlaners top, you would be having a sort of kill lane, where they equally split the cs and get the maximum gold they possibly can from said cs. Jungle would be divided up and given to the people who need it in the team.

DarkRitualJul 16, 20161 votes

Equal split for CS would actually put both behind the enemy carries, and neither of you will finish the Cull gold in a decent time. Spoils stacks aren't up often enough.

Pierce The VealJul 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Equal split for CS would actually put both behind the enemy carries, and neither of you will finish the Cull gold in a decent time. Spoils stacks aren't up often enough.

Neither are carries. It's intended to be a kill lane. While they aren't farming, they're trying to kill the enemy top laner. They will also have access to some of the jungle for gold, and can actively hunt down the enemy jungler.

And while I agree that spoil stacks aren't up enough, I would also like to point out that oftentimes melee champions are not capable of getting all the cs even if they tried. I understand that this probably won't work as well as I hope, but I do think that with some refining it could be useful.

OrangesilkJul 15, 20162 votes

item 3401 Gets a charge every 30 seconds.

This means that for you to get 100 last hits with it to fill your cull you'd need 3000 seconds of constant farming next to your carry.

That's no less than 50 minutes of constant farming

The only champion who'd tolerate that is Nasus but they'd hate you because relic kills don't give stacks.

Sozan5Jul 15, 20161 votes

You could build Relic Shield on a carry, actually.

Pierce The VealJul 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Gets a charge every 30 seconds.

This means that for you to get 100 last hits with it to fill your cull you'd need 3000 seconds of constant farming next to your carry.

That's no less than 50 minutes of constant farming

The only champion who'd tolerate that is but they'd hate you because relic kills don't give stacks.

Good point.

Very Hard EngageJul 15, 20163 votes

because it doesn't give passive gold per second. (gp5)

Battlecast SonaJul 15, 201615 votes

neither does ancient coin, and it's a gold income item.

General Esdeath Jul 15, 20164 votes

It gives gold when minions die near you. Technically you're getting gold for nothing.

INoble KnightIJul 15, 20161 votes

and health

Battlecast SonaJul 15, 20162 votes

and cull gives you an extra bonus gold per last hit on up to 100 minions with 300 gold at the end. Technically, you're getting gold for nothing.

Kappa.

rtbf225618241Jul 15, 20165 votes

You're essentially saying "Farming = Getting gold for nothing.".

Come on man.

TehNACHOJul 15, 20161 votes

To be fair, with the exception of support for the vast majority of the early to midgame, you should be farming in the first place.

rtbf225618241Jul 15, 20161 votes

And killing enemies, warding, securing objectives, destroying inhibitors.

Everything is mandatory to a skilled player. No shit, Sherlock.

TehNACHOJul 16, 20161 votes

Yes, that is the point.

You're doing it anyway. Farming isn't necessarily getting gold for absolutely nothing, but since you were going to farm anyway, you're getting even more gold for what you were doing anyway, gold for effectively nothing.

rtbf225618241Jul 16, 20161 votes

As if doing it takes no skill. That's my point.

TehNACHOJul 16, 20161 votes

But you're doing it anyway.

All the skill is directed towards the farming itself; with Cull, you're not going out of your way to getting yet more gold like Spellthief's Edge midlaners (back when that was popular anyway) have to juggle with.

rtbf225618241Jul 16, 20161 votes

Cull is not good for people who get 100 farm at 20 minutes. That's why it's a risky item in the first place.

DeathBot666Jul 15, 20161 votes

Kappa means he isn't being serious.

Battlecast SonaJul 16, 20161 votes

but a player without a cull will be 400 gold shorter after 100 cs than someone with one. Is that not a gold income item to you? That's the equivalent of a first blood.

rtbf225618241Jul 16, 20161 votes

I'm not talking about gold income items, i'm talking about farming taking skill, not being "gold for nothing".

Battlecast SonaJul 16, 20161 votes

okay again, OPs question is "why is it not in gold income" and you can't seem to tell me why that's the case, lol. And if you think somehow that getting +1 gold per lasthit and 300 gold for 100 last hits is different than something like relic shield's effect or spellthief's effect (giving you gold for actions that normally wouldn't give gold/giving additional gold for actions that normally would give less gold)...

That's all I want to know, cause I agree with OP that it should be in the gold income tab, especially since most people don't start with it (it's a second back kind of item if you know you're gonna be farming it out).

rtbf225618241Jul 16, 20161 votes

Because i'm not addressing the OP's question, i'm telling "Battlecast Janna" that it's not "Gold for nothing" if you get 100 farm soon enough to make actual use of the item.

Relic and Spellthief's don't require any skill to use, you're almost passive in using them just basic attack a minion at roughly 35% health or attack an enemy somehow and run away. Not that hard.

Battlecast SonaJul 17, 20161 votes

last hitting a minion, utilizing relic shield, and proccing spellthief's edge literally utilize the exact same mechanical skill across the board in a ton of ways, considering that all 3 can be accomplished with spell or abilities. Cull is extra gold for nothing because while you have to get the farm that's something you should already be doing anyway. Similarly, you should be poking and harassing as a poke support, so spellthief's edge makes sense.

I just don't understand your insistence that somehow last hitting is mechanically different from activating any gold item's effect - and how being given additional gold on top of an action you'd already complete is "gold for nothing". I guess it's more accurately "bonus gold for buying the item" which is textbook what the purpose of an item like relic shield or spellthief's edge is.

So what I'm trying to tell "LightTrack" is that if relic shield or spellthief's edge is "gold for nothing" then so is cull. You can't argue that somehow because one involves killing creeps and the other doesn't it's not "gold for nothing" because one person with Cull and one person without will have a marked difference in their gold generation based entirely on the item they purchased, which is exactly what every other gold income item does. The only gold income item that can be argued to actually be gold for nothing is Ancient Coin because it literally involves 0 mechanical involvement from the player - and that's why it's also the only of the suite of gold income items that doesn't have gp10 on it.

rtbf225618241Jul 17, 20161 votes

You don't have to time your attacks apart from not getting attacked yourself. It's really not comparable to last hitting minions and controlling entire waves.

Facepalm* Cull is good for those who can get 100 farm faster, hence, they are more skilled at farming if they can get 100 farm at like 12 minutes. If someone buys Cull and gets the extra gold at 20 minutes then it really is gold for nothing as that guy didn't really do anything to get it.

Spellthief's shit doesn't even do anything on it's own, other than give you a tiny amount of ap. It's just free gold for any ranged Support.

You could say LCS players are in the LCS for nothing as winning is sth they should be doing anyway. I guess Bronze players and Challenger players are not so far apart then. One is just playing the game wrong. Because it's "so easy it's almost for nothing.", right?

You replied to me. You don't have to refer to me when you're talking to me.

Then so is Cull."

How do you interpret something so illogical? Based on what?

You could literally say damage items are gold income items based on this ridiculous logic because indirectly, you get gold from them by killing things.

DeathToEcchiJul 16, 20161 votes

All Cull does is give you shitty bonus stats then refund the cost the cost of the item +100. It's only useful in high level macro play.

Battlecast SonaJul 16, 20161 votes

it's a doran's blade that pays for itself though. It's useful to anyone who doesn't want to kill their lane opponent - gives additional sustain (and it's health on hit instead of lifesteal so it's not dependant on your strength) and some extra AD, with gold payoff later.

Basically now instead of going double dblade when you're behind or have to back early you can make a cull to fill the same sort of slot (additional laning stats for extra sustain and laning safety) which gives you additional gold. I don't really see how that's only useful in high level macro play.

DeathToEcchiJul 18, 20161 votes

I guess if you're behind and can farm under turret easily then it's good. Otherwise, it puts you farther behind. Ideally, you want to be buying at the 1300+ gold point. In pro play, the lane swaps send you back at an ideal time to pick up a Cull. A Doran's Blade scales better into the late game than a Cull (whose value is based around selling it). It is a great item if you get a quick first blood and back though.

ElikainJul 15, 20161 votes

Relic Shield and Spellthief's Edge have 2gp10 effects while Ancient Coin has 4g + 5 HP per minion death in vicinity. All 3 of these have passive gold gen effects while Cull has an active gold gen effect that is tied to specifically killing minions.

That means it's not a support item, it's meant for champions who are meant to farm and don't rush their laning phases.

Battlecast SonaJul 15, 20161 votes

but it is a gold income item, which is what OPs statement is. The tab doesn't say "support items", it says "gold income".

ElikainJul 16, 20161 votes

##Gold gen is an exclusive support stat. 2/3 item tiers in this category (not the finished item version) have it's effects only active while not being the one who is killing CS, because it's not meant for a laner with a proper gold income.

Cull is a farming laner exclusive gold income item and not to be confused with support exclusive items. It is a starting item which means it's on another list because it's inferior to Doran's Blade start but you should buy it after a first back in order to prepare for the early mid game.

ElikainJul 15, 20161 votes

Because it's not a passive gold generation item, while both Ancient Coin, Relic Shield and Spellthief's Edge have this effect.

Cull only grants gold for killing minions which isn't something supports do at all.

JulanusJul 16, 20161 votes

Technically, Ancient Coin doesn't have a Gold generation effect.

It has a passive that grants gold when near dying minions, but it doesn't have the +Gold-per-10 seconds effect like Spellthief's Edge or Relic Shield.

Also, Relic Shield actually does reward Supports for killing minions, even if it's limited at 2 per minute.

I'd say Cull would fit the definition of a Gold generation item.

ElikainJul 16, 20161 votes

Relic Shield has an additional effect that allows melee supports to sustain their ADC and share certain minion gold, but this effect is different across the items. Spellthief's line rewards poking supports with gold per spell hit and Ancient Coin line rewards passive supports for playing like they are supposed to play.

Ancient Coin actually has a gold gen passive tied to it's effect because it generates 4 gold per minion death and Medallion 6. All of these items usually end up with same gold values if used to their full potential, they just encapsulate different play styles of supports. Currently, there are no farming supports and that's why Cull is not categorized as a support, gold gen item.

Gold gen items have passive gold gen tied to them + an additional effect for gold gen while Cull has an gold gen effect that is only activated if you're actively farming minions.

JulanusJul 17, 20161 votes

First off, the Ancient Coin line does not have passive gold generation. If a player were to purchase an Ancient Coin and stand in base for 10 minutes, Ancient Coin would generate 0 Gold.

The only gold the Ancient Coin line is able to generate is through its Unique Passive, Favor. Likewise, the only way for Cull to generate its gold is through its Unique Passive.

As for Cull's requirement to actively farm minions, the same applies to the Relic Shield line. The Relic Shield line's Unique Passive, Spoils of War, requires the player to actively last-hit minions in order to activate.

Next, in regards to the amount of gold the items can generate, the items are not close to the same in gold value.

In a period of 3 minutes, using absolute perfect conditions, the total gold each item is capable of generating is:

Ancient Coin line - Low risk, Low reward item 3301 = 152 gold [(Favor) 4 gold x 38 minions] item 3096 / item 3069 = 228 gold [(Favor) 6 gold x 38 minions]

Spellthief's Edge line - Mid to High risk, Mid to High reward item 3303 = 180 gold = 144 gold [(Tribute) 8 gold x 18 hits of damage] + 36 gold [2 gold per 10 seconds for 180 seconds] item 3098 / item 3092 = 306 gold = 270 gold [(Tribute) 15 gold x 18 hits of damage] + 36 gold [2 gold per 10 seconds for 180 seconds]

Relic Shield line - High risk, High to Mid reward item 3302 = 206 gold = 170 gold [(Spoils of War) 20 gold x 4 melee minions + 45 gold x 2 siege minions] + 36 gold [2 gold per 10 seconds over 180 seconds] item 3097 = 246 gold = 210 gold [(Spoils of War) 20 gold x 6 melee minions + 45 gold x 2 siege minions] + 36 gold [2 gold per 10 seconds for 180 seconds] item 3401 = 266 gold = 230 gold [(Spoils of War) 20 gold x 7 melee minions + 45 gold x 2 siege minions] + 36 gold [2 gold per 10 seconds for 180 seconds]

Cull - Mid risk, Low reward item 1083 = 38 gold = [(Unique Passive) 1 gold x 18 melee minions + 1 gold x 18 caster minions + 1 gold x 2 siege minions]

Perfectly last-hitting every minion in every wave without Cull - Mid Risk, High Reward 756 gold = 360 + 306 + 90 [20 gold x 18 melee minions + 17 gold x 18 caster minions + 45 gold x 2 siege minions]

Finally, "Gold Income" is a category of items that grant extra gold through a Passive and/or a +Gold per 10 seconds effect. Many items have fallen under this category, none of which were specifically Support-only items. One in particular, an item called Avarice Blade, was essentially the predecessor to Cull, granting gold for every unit killed.

As for whether Cull should or shouldn't be classified as a "Gold Income" item..

Spellthief's Edge grants extra gold through a +Gold per 10 seconds effect and a Passive effect that encourages aggression.

Relic Shield grants extra gold through a +Gold per 10 seconds effect and a Passive effect that encourages farming minions.

Ancient Coin grants extra gold through a Passive effect that encourages.. technically nothing, but is useful for safe and passive laning.

Cull grants extra gold through a Passive effect that encourages farming minions.

Cull should be categorized as a "Gold Income" item.

ElikainJul 18, 20161 votes

Cull isn't categorized as a gold income item because the stat is exclusive to supports. If the stat is exclusive to supports, then it means they are under no pressure to get CS on their own but rely primarily on passive gold gen and an additional effect from their item of choice.

Cull grants you capped gold for killing minions and pays off only for 100 minion kills.