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Timers on every blue and red for every side? I'm done jungling

My Sea Cow··107 votes·7,505 views
4/19 PBE Update

> When a camp that has a timer (Red, Blue, Dragon, Baron, Rift Herald) has less than 60 seconds to spawn, its timer is revealed to both teams (regardless of their vision of the camp), and an “about to spawn” icon appears in the minimap (will replace regular camp icon if you still haven’t seen the cleared camp)

Since when is this supposed to be a good idea? Pre-mades are making it more difficult with early invades for buffs but now broadcasting the buff timers for everyone to see makes it even easier for pre-mades to put the enemy jungler behind.

Don't get me wrong, I love counter jungling, but it shouldn't be something so obvious and easy for you. Counter jungling can have huge rewards (i.e. all their camps being up, or a buff being up), but risks as well (camps all cleared so waste of time...or running into enemy, or getting cornered). Chances are unless you're in a premade with others on your team, if an enemy premade invades to get your buff, you're not going to have help. Counter jungling should be about your own skill of warding the enemy jungle and getting the buff times for yourself, not looking at a mini map to see if their buff is up.

If this change becomes real on summoner's rift, I will not be jungling. Riot is making the game less about skill by putting timers up for everyone to see.

116 Comments

KitsuneKrash10 votes

Honestly I'm against the change. Currently guessing the respawn of a buff camp wrong wastes time & puts you at risk of getting killed, in other words it's currently a risk vs reward when counter-jungling.

This change will largely remove much of the risk to counter-jungling & diminish any sense of reward for managing to catch the enemy jungler at their buff & hopefully getting a kill.

I personally would prefer the personal satisfaction that comes from experience & managing to anticipate where the enemy jungler is, rather then "Oh, champ X relies heavy on blue buff & the map says it's about to respawn."

My Sea Cow3 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I'm against the change. Currently guessing the respawn of a buff camp wrong wastes time & puts you at risk of getting killed, in other words it's currently a risk vs reward when counter-jungling.

This change will largely remove much of the risk to counter-jungling & diminish any sense of reward for managing to catch the enemy jungler at their buff & hopefully getting a kill.

I personally would prefer the personal satisfaction that comes from experience & managing to anticipate where the enemy jungler is, rather then "Oh, champ X relies heavy on blue buff & the map says it's about to respawn."

^^ THIS! [zombie-nunu-hearts]

The Yetii Rider7 votes

The point isn't to encourage early invades. The point is to help contests over late game buffs, because Riot wants late game red and blue buffs to actually decide team fights.

My Sea Cow14 votes

Don't want to seem rude here, but honestly who is going team fight over a red buff or blue buff? THey aren't going to have any late game skirmishes over a blue buff or red buff unless they change the strength of those buffs as the game goes on. It's meant to have the junglers skirmish together and it comes down to who can get backup first or who can 1v1 better. To me, watching the junglers fight 1v1 is silly...junglers are there for pressure on lanes and securing dragons and barons...not to add another "lane" of 1v1ing (if you know what I mean).

Nameless Voice2 votes

Teams in professional games (LCS) often fight over the red and blue buffs, plus both buffs are about to be buffed and blue is going to become much more important with the removal of almost all mana regeneration items.

My Sea Cow3 votes

in professional games yes....I highly doubt that any of us here on the boards is any where close to that. I'm talking about your average bronze to plat players.

Professional play is a whole, completely, different game.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Sea Cow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=57R3NV7H,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-20T21:45:33.790+0000)

in professional games yes....I highly doubt that any of us here on the boards is any where close to that. I'm talking about your average bronze to plat players.

Professional play is a whole, completely, different game.

I consistently fight over and steal buffs while I'm not even a jungler. Those buffs are freaking strong, you'd be really surprised if you payed attention.

Supreme Senpai692 votes

But that's trying to steal a buff, he's talking about full scale teamfights over them. If I see more than 1-2 people at a buff I say screw it and let them have it. Not worth getting your entire team killed over for.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Revan Senpai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=57R3NV7H,comment-id=000300000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-04-21T07:39:29.299+0000)

But that's trying to steal a buff, he's talking about full scale teamfights over them. If I see more than 1-2 people at a buff I say screw it and let them have it. Not worth getting your entire team killed over for.

I mean, I've pushed for teamfights over buffs too. Depending on how you set it up, them trying to prevent you from stealing the buff can put them out of position, allowing your team to swiftly clean up.

My Sea Cow1 votes

but that's only if your team follows you with it....I've had so so many where my team doesn't help at all even if it's a level 2 invade to try to steal my buff.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Sea Cow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=57R3NV7H,comment-id=00030000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-21T16:12:14.592+0000)

but that's only if your team follows you with it....I've had so so many where my team doesn't help at all even if it's a level 2 invade to try to steal my buff.

Then you read your team wrong. In League you need to play around your team just as much as you have to play around the enemy.

My Sea Cow2 votes

how do I read my team wrong if I get gromp, start my blue and I have 2 of the enemies surrounding me and pinging for help but no one comes....I did my part...I warded the one side because they warded where I started...how is it my fault reading the team wrong when I'm doing nothing but getting my first buff? If I can't rely on my team to back me up in my own jungle, I definitely can't expect them to back me up for counter jungling or later invades.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Sea Cow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=57R3NV7H,comment-id=0003000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-22T03:10:31.237+0000)

how do I read my team wrong if I get gromp, start my blue and I have 2 of the enemies surrounding me and pinging for help but no one comes....I did my part...I warded the one side because they warded where I started...

Stopped reading there. You're right, the problem isn't that you read your team wrong, it's the fact that you actually tried going for a buff that your team didn't want to contest. And let me guess, you gave first blood and blamed that on your team too?

They got the buff and first blood, when had you retreated they would have only gotten a single buff.

My Sea Cow1 votes

Thanks for assuming I'm dumb enough to give up first blood, but nope I did not...I did get poked badly so had to back but they also didn't steal my buff because of damage from myself and buff hitting them. Next time don't assume that I'm such a bad jungler to do that. Nor did I burn flash. THey got nothing out of it, other then setting me back severely.

When you're team won't listen to pings or have any map awareness there is no contesting in laning phase because they are too busy being tunnel blind onto their lane. Especially in lower elo, when it's rare to get good warding, if any done.

Not saying you're not entirely wrong...I"m sure there's things I could have done differently, but invades that early you're entirely team dependent and if there's no follow up or help from your team, you get set behind because of it.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Sea Cow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=57R3NV7H,comment-id=000300000000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-22T05:37:02.877+0000)

Thanks for assuming I'm dumb enough to give up first blood, but nope I did not...I did get poked badly so had to back but they also didn't steal my buff because of damage from myself and buff hitting them. Next time don't assume that I'm such a bad jungler to do that. Nor did I burn flash. THey got nothing out of it, other then setting me back severely.

When you're team won't listen to pings or have any map awareness there is no contesting in laning phase because they are too busy being tunnel blind onto their lane. Especially in lower elo, when it's rare to get good warding, if any done.

Not saying you're not entirely wrong...I"m sure there's things I could have done differently, but invades that early you're entirely team dependent and if there's no follow up or help from your team, you get set behind because of it.

Then you won out. Two people from there side are back at the cost of one person. I'm not sure why you're complaining?

Vellich0r2 votes

It really is now, denying a blue or getting two blues on one team is a huge boon, and that gift lends easily to taking a dragon right after.

The Yetii Rider10 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Sea Cow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=57R3NV7H,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-04-20T21:31:08.557+0000)

Don't want to seem rude here, but honestly who is going team fight over a red buff or blue buff? THey aren't going to have any late game skirmishes over a blue buff or red buff unless they change the strength of those buffs as the game goes on. It's meant to have the junglers skirmish together and it comes down to who can get backup first or who can 1v1 better. To me, watching the junglers fight 1v1 is silly...junglers are there for pressure on lanes and securing dragons and barons...not to add another "lane" of 1v1ing (if you know what I mean).

They ARE changing the strength of blue and red.

A) Mages no longer have mana regen items. Blue is the only way a mage can get through a fight and still be safe to push or contest an objective. Otherwise, the mage is backing late game when the enemy assassin is still good to go.

B) Turrets now have 700 less health and each attack procs an extra blast of red buff. That much free true damage means you'll cut through towers no problem even as a support in the late game.

C) Red buff gives approximately a Warmog's worth of out of combat health regen late game. That's amazing for a split pusher who needs to get in the thick of things and then take towers, like Trundle or Shen.

D) Blue is having its mana regeneration doubled, and its mana regeneration scales based on max mana, which mages are going to have a lot more of.

Have you not read the changelist?

My Sea Cow4 votes

Yes I read the changelist but it's not something I see worth fighting over or possibly getting aced over

D rok4 votes

They'll be fought over, but mostly just as a secondary objective on the way to another one. This change will just be a huge boon to self-sufficient early-mid game junglers/teams. Certain champs will have a field day with this. The rest will continue as normal.

My Waifu Vanilla3 votes

Also blue gives a death cap effect now for 15% more AP.

supersonic21 votes

are you a cow

My Sea Cow2 votes

a sea cow...there's a difference

RamboDash151 votes

If that is the case I suggest the global timers start around 20:00-25:00 minutes. Having the global timers from the start does not do much for late game, and only entices early invades and easier counter jungling.

My Sea Cow1 votes

I'd be okay with that

General Esdeath 6 votes

Every time I tell myself this season can't get any worse, Riot proves me wrong.

Crossette1 votes

ikr

fuck the pbe right now

My Sea Cow1 votes

that's why I'm not playing on my pbe account...don't want to support the idea lol

Xonra5 votes

It's funny, I'm even seeing multiple pro junglers saying how stupid it is lol

Dr W3 votes

Can we also get something that clears camps and performs ganks for us? I'd hate for this to take any skill.

My Sea Cow2 votes

might as well have the system automatically last hit for everyone too...I mean it's fair right...then both parties will always have the same amount of gold...

Count Zubat2 votes

They were talking something about making red and blue buffs more contestant, but I didn't expect they'll do it that way. This is stupid, they really want to make this game as easy as possible? Why even control jungle through warding, just look at the minimap. Just pure bullshit.

My Sea Cow2 votes

I agree...I mean now the only reason to ward is to know when they are going to go for my buff, which they already know is up.

Lugg2 votes

I agree with you totally on this one. They may as well remove fog of war for junglers if this goes through.

TheSingularity2 votes

Yeh. It's pretty lame. And downright stupid. I don't want, my rough position globally announced every time the enemy team presses tab. From this, it makes it easier to counter jungle utility tank mains like mahself, harder to gank lanes as taking either buff advertises my position and it makes ganking as the enemy jungler easier, as you know who is/isn't there to counter gank... TO EVERYONE! And everyone knows, catch a utility tank as shaco, lee, kindred or what-not and they're screwed. Gold for the counter jungler, 1-2 less buffs for the utility jungler.

And as others have stated. Premade 4's are already hard enough to deal with. Now they will be able to abuse the crap out of this. Pick an early aggressive jungler, send em in to where ever the timer roughly indicates me to be. And their team will be able to follow up if something magically goes wrong, which it likely won't.

Global Dragon timers, were already a silly addition. Why? because now everyone get's to know where your team is if you kill it, and when their next opportunity to contest it is.

RIP utility tanks as shaco, nunu, lee sin and kindred reign supreme.

TheRealBaz2 votes

also lee sin and other early game junglers will be op and starve the jungler while getting so much gold and exp making some passive junglers useless

My Sea Cow2 votes

agreed...and the tankier/team fighting ones will just get bullied out of the jungle super fast

GuldenDraak90002 votes

I just think that the fog of war should actually mean something in the jungle. When you have the knowledge of the jungle timers it can be very easy to divine where the jungler is or will be and act accordingly in lane. Knowledge of the jungle timers should not be given for free.

Emperor Time1 votes

I'm a Jungler and I find this change to be a good one. Good junglers already have a general idea of when the enemy buffs are spawning anyways so this just adds some clarity for those who don't have that.

My Sea Cow2 votes

isn't though the point is getting better? Why should they make it fool proof. Not only that but you'll have people thinking "oh their red buff up...i'll just walk into their jungle...oops I died". It's not going to change common sense if anything it will make stupidity worse

Boulderox1 votes

I see why they are doing it, but ffs it is going to encourage invader junglers due to them being able to be there and set up shop waiting for you... I just think it is unhealthy in the end for junglers. Now you have to have your pinks on or around your own buffs... instead of critical locations around river....

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Except most invaders knew your buff timers anyway. It was never a difficult thing to know (looking at remaining time on buffs or even just using common sense) so this will never really change the play pattern of someone who was going to invade you in the first place.

My Sea Cow2 votes

it just makes it easier for those early game cheeses, whether or not they already knew the timers.

WadeWilson13371 votes

[deleted]

My Sea Cow3 votes

that's the point...why make it so easy...why can't we let people learn how to do things instead of making it so easy anyone can do it. Rito shouldn't have an easy button. I learned counter jungling by making dumb mistakes...I don't do it often as I'm no pro but I can manage my own. I think it takes the fun out of jungling by adding it

MrLlamaWaffle1 votes

The same argument was made when buff timers were first introduced. NOTHING about doing simple math takes skill. A decent jungler will track buff timers, it's trivial. I do agree, however, that this just makes the 4+1 experience worse.

Only Play Darius2 votes

Buff timers were only for neutral objectives, enemy needed to ward correctly to get your red/blue timers. Now they get to know when your buffs are up without any actual skill or effort. I'm happy I quit jg a while ago.

Sakaru1 votes

Has nothing to do with math. If the jungler's been doing a decent job of clearing your wards at his buffs, you won't know when they're up. Simple as that. You have to know when he cleared them for that math to matter.

Now it's just automatically "We know exactly when it'll be up, without having to try to use any skill in knowing when he did them" which makes jungling anything that's not a counter jungler a nightmare. Because you'll just be pushed out of your own jungle constantly, since counter junglers will know exactly where to be, exactly when. 100% of the time.

In fact, there already wasn't any math in the first place. If you SAW the enemy jungler clear it, you'd have the timer. If you didn't see them clear it, you wouldn't have the timer. And doing math wouldn't help, since you didn't know when they cleared it.

Jonxx1 votes

I like the change. Probably because I don't like writing down stuff just to have a little advantage here and there. Call me casual player if you want, but I'm all in for changes like these that'll make game less tedious.

NeX Daark3 votes

{quoted}

I like the change. Probably because I don't like writing down stuff just to have a little advantage here and there. Call me casual player if you want, but I'm all in for changes like these that'll make game less tedious.

This is exactly what is wrong with these changes. Zero effort, max reward. I used to think game companies just made bad decisions. Now I realize they are making all the right decisions. They are catering to their new casual audience that doesn't want skill to be involved.

Aheadatime1 votes

You don't have to write anything down currently. You already have buff timers. The only 'tedious' thing you need to do is ward the enemy jng if you want their timers revealed as well. Do you understand these changes? You can hold tab early game and watch if enemy red or blue buff timer goes out to see which buff they started real-time. It's like you have perma-vision of the enemy jungle at all times. That's fucking ridiculous.

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