I think the only thing people wanted from the Tank Meta was the Tankiness (LONG POST)

Crett··41 votes·2,530 views

A meta where tanks can really take a hit, and keep on coming, an ever present force. Even then, it had a HUGE issue. The tanks were dealing ridiculous damage. It really bothered me to see Sejuani catch and kill a Twitch from full health in about 5 seconds.

That isn't to say I think tanks shouldn't be able to do damage; I think the issue is that their main threat in a teamfight isn't just their CC, it's also their damage, and that much damage on a durable champion presents a really difficult problem for the opposing team with no easy solution. And instead of toning down their damage over the course of a fight, Riot targeted their survivability.

I really don't like to see a meta where the only real defense a Tank has against a carry is their own damage.

The solution in my opinion, is to take some of their damage from their active abilities, where they kill you and you can't get away or fight back, but put a large amount of power into their passive mitigation, and most importantly, their passive damage potential. If people are targeting a tank, that's when the tank should be dealing damage. It reinforces the idea that tanks want to be soaking hits and being in the fight, as well as the idea that you don't want to focus the tank.

Their threat in a teamfight should be their CC, if a Sejuani catches a Twitch out, she should be doing so to keep him occupied until her team follows up. This way, they have a clear weakness, and clear strengths, and they can be a lot more powerful without being oppressive.

Maybe there are some flaws with the execution of this idea, but I think it represents my ideals. You don't just "take out" a tank on your own in a couple seconds. It should be a bit of a project late game, something you do when the tank is way overextended, or when the rest of his team has been killed and he can sustainably be focus fired. At the same time, A tank shouldn't be assassinating an ADC.

As for what kind of changes I would make, I would take the Rabaddon's/Infinity Edge approach, where tanking is something you explicitly itemize for and stack, while adding power when the tank is being attacked, as opposed to explicitly offensive power.

And thus these abominations spring forth:

item 3075 Thornmail No stat changes; applies Grievous Wounds

item 3911 Titan's Spaulders/Warmog's Armor? GOLD COST: 4000

  • 600 Health UNIQUE PASSIVE: 10% Bonus Health, increasing by 1% per minute, up to a maximum of 40%. Time of purchase doesn't matter; it's based on game-time. UNIQUE PASSIVE - WARMOG'S HEART: When the user has 4000 maximum health or more, Warmog's Heart is activated. This is an effect that can be toggled between health regeneration and damage reduction. This toggle has a cooldown of 60 seconds. Health Regen per second: 1%, gradually decreases to 0.5% over 5 seconds as damage is taken from champions and large monsters. Damage Reduction: 10%, increasing to 20% over 5 seconds as damage is taken from champions and large monsters.

Warmog's sounds a bit overloaded now? Well you can't rush it or it's passive is pretty useless, and it's a seriously late-game option thanks to it's high price. Sweeping changes to tanks would be made that keep these strengths from being oppressive. Thornmail is a lot more powerful thanks to countering Lifesteal even harder, and the fact that tanks are just more durable now. These changes would usher forth a new meta where actual tanks are super durable late game, but have meaningful shifts in power (changing to regen passive to recover from fights, putting their ramping damage reduction on cooldown). With these changes, I'm worried about these champion's damage output because item 3748 exists as an active offensive tool for them and item 3075 as a passive offensive tool.

Damage shifts from their up-front damage to their ramping damage would probably have to happen, and with lower numbers It isn't a lot of fun as an ADC to have a tank run up and mow you down without anything you can do about it. (especially the ones that speed themselves up and slow you. HOW TO ESCAPE?)

Movement speed slows during combat on tank items is one option, and could be a good way to justify such powerful stats on an item besides gold cost, while also making fighters and champions that want to get around quickly during fights shy away from pure tank items.

I'm messing around slightly, but I've always wanted tanks that are seriously durable in this game, and I wasn't around during Mundo's glory days.

Unfortunately, this brings up a problem; BRUISERS. Feel free to talk about solutions that enforce actually building full tank as a tank champions that aren't going to give Garen any ridiculous strength.

Feel free to talk about changes to this design, or talk about how this kind of tank could be implemented without being gross. Maybe this version of Warmog's can exist alongside the current one, with more of a focus on late-game sustained combat, and it's stat multiplier.

And also know, this is just a pretty dedicated guy's tortured thoughts. It's wishful thinking that I could get such a huge change to tanks to happen through a forum post. That's pre-season nonsense. At the most, I'd like to hear Riot's thoughts on how really tanky tanks can happen without making the game terrible, and if it could do any good for the game to have a counter to this very damage-ruled meta.

37 Comments

LadyRenly23 votes

Honestly, when Cinderhulk first came around, I was super stoked to finally be a Garen or Sion and actually comfortably build HP and feel like it has an impact even though I am not building damage. I liked not giving a crap to harass. But then trying to play ADC or a mage, it was super frustrating to play against the Maokais or Sejuanis or whatever who would literally laugh at all your damage, and then proceed to do their rotation of "you cant play league of legends" and then somehow kill you faster than you can them. But to make it worse, it was literally not uncommon for 3 tanks on a team. That was just straight up obnoxious. If you were an ADC main, suddenly you felt like a 12 year old girl on an internet chat room, because everyone was after you, you could smell the thirst a mile away because nobody else would die.

Crett13 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, when Cinderhulk first came around, I was super stoked to finally be a Garen or Sion and actually comfortably build HP and feel like it has an impact even though I am not building damage. I liked not giving a crap to harass. But then trying to play ADC or a mage, it was super frustrating to play against the Maokais or Sejuanis or whatever who would literally laugh at all your damage, and then proceed to do their rotation of "you cant play league of legends" and then somehow kill you faster than you can them. But to make it worse, it was literally not uncommon for 3 tanks on a team. That was just straight up obnoxious. If you were an ADC main, suddenly you felt like a 12 year old girl on an internet chat room, because everyone was after you, you could smell the thirst a mile away because nobody else would die.

Totally. I hated the tank Meta where they killed you in half a second. What I want is a tank who laughs at your damage. And then lasts long enough for their team to show up and kill you instead. LOL

DazedOnlooker2 votes

This is something i have always LOVED about playing tanks, i don't give a sh** about kills for myself, as a tank my life's mission was to make it so my team gets as fed as possible without worrying about getting stomped the moment a team fight starts. As well is keeping the enemy locked down....forever! >:U. I always end up looking like the derpiest person on my team running beside the enemy,in circles around the enemy, or even disappearing into the jungle the moment i cc an enemy knowing that the enemy is going to get finished off by my teammates (gotta get the stun/slow/knock-up off so they can't be sanic fast and run away) .I Make it obvious that i'm not trying to KS xD

The best part is when i'm soo tanky, and for some reason my team is somewhat competent and the enemy team starts acting like a bunch of potatoes and decide it's a dandy good idea to focus me down before anyone else, and all end up getting deleted before i die(or after i die) leaving no real casualties for my team.

junglerboy167 votes

Basically, you want tanks to be powerhouse CC bots with minimal damage and absurd durability? I can actually get behind that pretty well, but there has to be more than just that one style of tank. For instance, look at Sion; he is a very healthy champion because of his high counterplay which allows him to have strong damage, durability, and CC at most points of the game, and taking away his damage to make him virtually immortal would make him feel meaningless. Pushing the tank class towards your vision as a whole is a good idea, but there would have to be a LOT of fine tuning for each individual champ so that they don't all feel like "who has the most CC and tankiness right now?" but actually have meaningful strategic choices behind them.

Crett2 votes

i agree

Sirilias4 votes

All the suggestions you've made leave Riot plenty of room to keep bruisers in the game if they put their heads together, tanks need some good reworking of their base stats so only they can really take advantage of Warmog's on crack (TM). The 40% extra bonus health seemed like a bit much until I actually applied it to the in game stats, so that shouldn't be too bad.

I'm really tired of being terrified a Sejuani is gonna swoop out of the jungle in two hit me as well, I want to see if there can be changes made to the current tank meta.

SunriseSkaterKid4 votes

Tank meta wasnt the best but it was damn well better than this shitty item 3710 meta we are forced in.

Bettiqua3 votes

yeah, you made a lot of good points, but i think bruisers can still have a place in the game with tanks given the role you've suggested. like, sacrificing some tankiness in exchange for damage should be a calculated risk, one chosen by a team (if possible) and deciding whether or not it's worth it

Crett5 votes

The idea is about keeping bruisers from building this new item/reworked Warmog's and becoming unstoppable killing machines. They should be a little less tanky than before, and tanks should be skyrocketing in my opinion.

But Sejuani, Gragas, Sion, 100-0ing ADCs? They gonna have to give up some tanky for that

Seenan1 votes

{quoted}

The idea is about keeping bruisers from building this new item/reworked Warmog's and becoming unstoppable killing machines. They should be a little less tanky than before, and tanks should be skyrocketing in my opinion.

But Sejuani, Gragas, Sion, 100-0ing ADCs? They gonna have to give up some tanky for that

The reason for that 100-0 is, those champs for some awful reason have really high scalings OR %hp damage. Well, not Sej anymore.

ahferroin72 votes

Add to that list: Leona (I've actually done this before playing Leona as a support) Alistair (I've never managed this myself as alistair, but I've seen it happen) Zac (I've 100-0ed multiple people at once as zec, and had built only HP and rylai's)

Voluug132 votes

Gragas is understable. Even there Gragas's problem isnt damage but a kit overload with poke, displacement, cc and uber tankiness.

Sejuani got nerfs and she was fine by the 2° nerf. Even thre she was always amongst the squishiest tanks due to incentivated hp scaling and no defense buffs in her kit.

If your Adc is dying to Sion they need to learn to play because every adc shoul be able to not get touched by Sion. Sion has tons of counterplay. Heck just your support body blocking his ult saves you inmediatly. ( unless you try to duel him at melee while not moving expecting to win).

Even there none of them 0-100 adc ever unless they are pretty fed, or sacrificed defense for building damage.

Crett1 votes

{quoted}

Gragas is understable. Even there Gragas's problem isnt damage but a kit overload with poke, displacement, cc and uber tankiness.

Sejuani got nerfs and she was fine by the 2° nerf. Even thre she was always amongst the squishiest tanks due to incentivated hp scaling and no defense buffs in her kit.

If your Adc is dying to Sion they need to learn to play because every adc shoul be able to not get touched by Sion. Sion has tons of counterplay. Heck just your support body blocking his ult saves you inmediatly. ( unless you try to duel him at melee while not moving expecting to win).

Even there none of them 0-100 adc ever unless they are pretty fed, or sacrificed defense for building damage.

That's true. Certain champions could probably escape the worst of this issue, mostly the ones like Sion

Manwalrus3 votes

Why post this now, the tank meta is dead and now we can have Olaf tear through carries and cc alike to kill adcs in half a second, not to mention how broken skarner and mordekaiser's numbers are. I'd certainly prefer the tank meta to this.

AvaBee2 votes

I agree for the most part, but bruisers have their place. Garen is a threat because he can do damage, and that's why he tanks because the enemy is forced to focus him. Riot needs to solidify who is a bruiser/Juggernaut and who is a pure Tank (or utility tank, see Taric and Braum ).

Grievious wounds could be problematic as theres already little counterplay for an adc against item 3075 and additionally riot seems to not like grievious wounds as they're slowly being removed from some champions abilities. Instead, on Thornmail , I might suggest a 3-5 proc system where if the adc autos 3-5 times on the tank, they are either briefly stunned or slowed. This would aid with difficult kiters like Kalista and Quinn .

I think the item 3083 replacement idea is a little too convaluted and could probably be simplified so it's usage is more clear. It might have just been your phrasing.

Reactionary cheap items for tanks might be a good short term solution for champs with bad jungle/waveclear to help stop an enemy champion from snowballing without having to dedicate huge chunks of time and money to counter. (by then it could be too late)

This comes from someone who mainly plays tanks and has noticed them... not being very tanky. But the disruptive element is always fun. This topic is important but requires a lot of though to solidify an ideal solution

Crett1 votes

Very true. Bruisers like Garen should be durable and do damage. When he's taking damage, he's always been able to press W and can come back with a lot of health thanks to his passive.

Not focusing the tank is good counterplay to me. Grievous wounds was always a problem because it was a very low interaction concept that just shut down a lot of champions; that's why morello has the low cooldown condition, and they straight up removed executioners. Thornmail's concept targets only a very specific, yet widespread issue. ADCs can still deal with it, but it becomes a LOT less safe for them.

The idea for the switching passive for Warmog's, is that one form is better for skirmishes, sieges, recovering after combat, etc, but it falls under focus fire. The other is for when the tankiness needs to turn ON. A 60 second cooldown on switching these strengths creates windows of opportunity in between small engages to catch the tank out, but maybe the opportunity should be more pronounced. Maybe damage taken should be INCREASED during the regen passive? Giving a tank a choice between regen and reduction actually can create some interesting gameplay.

Jungle Lux God2 votes

My philosophy on how tanks work in League of Legends is that you are either designed to be as annoying as possible to distract the enemy team from your team's actual threats or that you are a significant threat based solely on setting up your teammates. The problem is when you become both annoying and a threat, which either happens when the tank gets fed enough to be able to get bruiser-oriented items and burst people down because he's fed or when the tank is farmed, yet unfed, but is overtuned enough that the tank can get fed enough to burst an enemy champion down in 5 seconds.

I like most of the stuff you thought of in this post. Tanks should not be expected to be damage dealers, nor should they deal good damage in a short amount of time. However, I think it's okay if they deal some good damage at the expense of other strengths. Like Sejuani trades innate tankiness for good damage and CC. That is okay, as long as the damage isn't bursty.

An idea that I had for tank items that didn't work on bruisers was for some armor/magic resistance items that offered a lot of health and armor/magic resistance (not both on the same item, but two different items that had it), either more than other items or that had a passive that ignored the opponent's associated penetration, but also had a passive that greatly reduced their own damage. Here's an example:

Cursed Armor

Cost+ 2500 gold

100 armor 600 health passive: reduce all damage you deal by 50%

With this kind of item, you get massive defensive stats that really bulks up your tanks like Amumu, Nautilus, or Sejuani, but at the same time it's not going to allow them to directly kill the enemy squishies by the tank's lonesome. At the same time, someone like Garen or Darius wouldn't really do well with the item because damage is a large part of what they do. Cutting Garen's damage or Darius' damage by half is a huge hit to them. Obviously they still have true damage (Garen on villain passive and Darius on ulti), but most other bruisers don't have that luxury, so this kind of item would be a powerful tank item without being too strong on bruisers.

Crett1 votes

Honestly, that's a pretty good idea. Bruisers would never build something that decreases their damage. I think the item would have to be a lot stronger to warrant a 50% damage decrease, though. A LOT stronger.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

Yeah, I was only using that item more as an example than an actual item.

In reality it would probably have closer to 120 armor and 800 health for that cost and effect.

Done252 votes

I think you're missing a huge key point though. Sejuani might be able to kill Twitch in five seconds, but he can do the same to her towers. And which one of these actions actually wins games?

A Marksmen's strength is not in his teamfight potential. It's in taking objectives. I want you to take the time it take for Sej to kill Baron. Now look at the time it takes Twitch to kill him. Twitch will ALWAYS win by a significant amount.

Nekolie2 votes

If you want to make tanks viable, you need to rework magic and physical damage again. The biggest issue right now is that when tanking outscales damage, it because to easy to itemize against it and when damage outscales tanking, then tanks become worthless. The game needs to balance defensiveness to allow you to effectively outscale a single damage type if you itemize against it, but needs to leave you unable to outscale damage if you try to itemize against both types.

Kuroi861 votes

Thornmail No stat changes; applies Grievous Wounds

Heard from a Red that Riot already tested this idea on internal servers, apparently it was utter broken.

ahferroin71 votes

I really don't believe this, they have explicitly said they are phasing out Grevious Wound.

Kuroi861 votes

Here we go, I was off by a bit, but this is copy/paste what RiotRepertoir had to say.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Kt07wA02-thornmail-is-getting-its-damage-nerfed-by-no-small-ammount

We had something very close to this on Thornmail for awhile internally, but I believe it resulted in a question of what options auto attackers even have then if Thornmail not only damages them significantly, but also halves their Lifesteal.

Crett1 votes

Riot's changed their stance on these kinds of things before. especially when options change. It raises a question. If the autoattacker has options against the tank, oftentimes the tank doesn't have an option against the autoattacker. Under this system, when an ADC kills a tank, it will usually be because they had help, or it's really late game and they have both BT and BoTRK (which can actually still compete with thornmail at half capacity). But at the same time, the tanks aren't going to be diving ADCs and blowing them up.

A lot of the reason Riot would have issues with GW on thornmail is probably because they're already dealing pretty high damage.

Kuroi861 votes

The thing is though, Thornmail already negates life steal up to a pretty significant amount. You need at least 30% life steal to hope to over heal the damage from Thornmail, granted that's just considering the 15% pre-mitigation damage from it and not even counting the % armor damage. There's a few factors to count in and it is a bit overwhelming atm to try and put them all down. >_< Put grievous wounds on Thornmail and you're looking at around 50-60% life steal required just to over heal Thornmail.

Crett1 votes

{quoted}

The thing is though, Thornmail already negates life steal up to a pretty significant amount. You need at least 30% life steal to hope to over heal the damage from Thornmail, granted that's just considering the 15% pre-mitigation damage from it and not even counting the % armor damage. There's a few factors to count in and it is a bit overwhelming atm to try and put them all down. >_< Put grievous wounds on Thornmail and you're looking at around 50-60% life steal required just to over heal Thornmail.

I'm actually alright with that. ADCs shouldn't completely negate thornmail with one item, unless they're really going nuts on lifesteal. They should take SOME damage from it.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

I'm actually alright with that. ADCs shouldn't completely negate thornmail with one item, unless they're really going nuts on lifesteal. They should take SOME damage from it.

putting grevious wounds on Thornmail is pretty much just you getting as much health as possible and then being immune to ADCs or any auto-attacker in the game since there will be a point that they will kill themselves attacking you. Not to mention that the most lifesteal ADCs get is 32% from items and even with runes+masteries (who even uses those?) you are literally negating the lifesteal completely even with their max lifesteal builds (which even then it barely even heals them at this point)

Kuroi861 votes

One item can't negate Thornmail.

You're looking at at least two life steal items. Those plus item 2140 might over come Thornmail, depends on how much armor they are packing. The thing is though, putting money into multiple life steal items hurts your DPS. You want the best DPS then you've got to go for either item 3031 item 3046 item 3072 or go for item 3031 item 3087 item 3153 or a combo of Inf/crit chance/life steal, depends on the champ.

Crett1 votes

{quoted}

One item can't negate Thornmail.

You're looking at at least two life steal items. Those plus item 2140 might over come Thornmail, depends on how much armor they are packing. The thing is though, putting money into multiple life steal items hurts your DPS. You want the best DPS then you've got to go for either item 3031 item 3046 item 3072 or go for item 3031 item 3087 item 3153 or a combo of Inf/crit chance/life steal, depends on the champ.

If ADCs want to go maximum DPS, they better be prepared for thornmail to hurt. When that becomes a serious problem for ADCs, they can itemize against tanks by building high lifesteal, but that doesn't solve everything.

Tanks should really mostly be dying from team focus.

Only Aatrox1 votes

Stopped reading after "don't focus the tank"

Dengeden1 votes

The main problems I see with this is:

  1. CC is too easily countered, especially late game. item 3140 item 3222 item 3111 item 2138summoner 1 (Also, you can get 10% CC reduction and 15% slow reduction from just 9 points in the tank tree)
  2. Tanks need damage for the laning phase, otherwise, they'll be indefinitely pushed in or have difficulty clearing jungle camps.
  3. Tanks can still get DoT items (Sunfire and Cinderhulk in particular but the AP&Health items are a thing too) and if they are unkillable they will, eventually, kill you.
ahferroin71 votes
  1. Most players (keep in mind that there are many more low ELO players than high ELO ones) don't build those even when they should (other than mercury's treads), and many people put nothing into the tank tree unless they're playing a tank.
  2. The issue is not the damage in the laning phase, it's the late game damage. This can easily be solved by having them scale damage a lot less tan they currently do
  3. This is not the issue, the issue is their burst potential. A level 18 Garen against almost any other level 18 champ, both with full builds, and with the other champ tagged as a villian, has pretty much a guaranteed kill against that champ unless they have help. This is absolutely ridiculous given how tanky Garne is. Similar applies to Darius and (if he's fed his Q properly) Nasus.
Dengeden2 votes
  1. Fair point, they'd still need some AoE but their single target spells would largely consist of CC. I didn't think of that.
  2. Not the issue, certainly. But it would be a problem if nothing could kill them.

And I personally don't agree that Garen and the like are problems. They are still kitable and no matter how tanky they are, crits and the various %health items will still manage to kill them, albeit a little slowly.

Crett1 votes

The current thinking is reducing their damage to champions via itemization, with the tradeoff of hardcore durability. With these changes, sure, you can stave off the CC, but they'll have so many more opportunities to land CC that it won't really matter. Not to mention, knockups aren't affected by tenacity.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

there is no point in having tanks when you have Bruisers/Juggernauts who are just as tanky but deal stupid amounts of damage that could rival those of Assassins (if not even more)

TemplarKenway1 votes

As unbalanced as it was It was fun seeing ADC mains QQ Being able to 1v5 as Maokai and get 3 kills is the best feeling in the world

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