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Elise now has the lowest winrate of all champions - Buff or Rework?

P0IS0N IVY··19 votes·4,983 views

When I choose a champion to play, I ask myself, "What reason do I have to pick this champion over another?"

For Elise Elise, it used to be, "She has good damage and a strong jungling presence. She can be built as an offtank and works well with a team that has a good amount of CC."

Now it's, "There is no reason to pick Elise because her damage output is meager, she offers very little CC and is squishier than most offtanks."

Ever since Elise became the most played champion, she has continuously been chain nerfed. She's hit rock bottom. Her win rate is 42.51%. She needs to be either reworked or buffed.

  • Buff Option:

So the problem with Elise previously was that she did too much damage while still being tanky. Both of those things have been nerfed and one of them needs to come back. If Riot were to give her back her damage, that would restore her early jungling presence, but her power may be too overwhelming. Therefore, I would suggest giving her her Spider stats back as well as some more utility. Her human form E (Cocoon) needs its duration to be restored to 1.5. The max damage of her Q against monsters should also be increased.

Also fix the Rappel bugs. Please.

  • Rework Option:

If we were to rework Elise, we might as well also take a look at the theme of a spider. Spiders take time to spin their webs and lure their prey in. They have venom to paralyze their victims and prevent them from moving. Spiders are not meant to be extremely mobile.

Elise's damage ratios will be increased and her base damage stats reduced.

I've introduced a new feature called the Neurotoxin debuff in Elise's suggested rework.

  • **Passive - Spider Swarm: **Current passive as well as generating one spiderling every X seconds. Addition: The Neurotoxin debuff lasts for 2 seconds.

  • Q: **Human Form - Jumping Spider: ** Costs one spiderling. Elise sends forth a leaping spiderling as a skill shot. It sticks to an enemy champion upon contact and causes the Neurotoxin debuff. If the enemy champion has already been debuffed, they will be dealt extra damage. If the spiderling does not hit a champion, it will remain in the area for X seconds. If Elise reactivates the ability or X seconds pass, the spiderling will explode, applying Neurotoxin to everything in X radius. No longer does % health damage. Spider Form - Venomous Bite: Elise's next attack will cause her to leap at the target. Increased range if enemy is debuffed. If the enemy is within normal range, Venomous Bite does X extra damage. Cooldown decreased by 1 second every time a spiderling attacks. Cannot occur more than once every X seconds. Does % max health damage.

  • W: Human Form - Skittering Frenzy: Increases the attack speed of spiderlings. Passive - Attacking enemies with the Neurotoxin debuff restores X amount of health/second for X seconds. Duration is reset upon each attack. Active (Passive disabled while on CD): Increases Elise's attack speed. Spider Form - Paralysis: Targetted ability. Can be used with Jumping Spider. The closest spiderling will shoot a jet of venom at the target and cause the Neurotoxin debuff. If the target has already been debuffed, they will be stunned.

  • E: Human Form - Cocoon: Fires a cocoon that stuns and reveals the first enemy it hits, applying the Neurotoxin debuff. Only does damage if the enemy is already debuffed. Spider Form - Web: Costs one spiderling. Spins an invisible web of X radius that lasts X minutes and reveals the area. Enemies that walk into it are slowed and given the Neurotoxin debuff. Enemies that already have the Neurotoxin debuff are stunned. There may only be X webs on the map at once. Elise receives additional movement speed while on a web.

  • R: Unchanged

Comments on rework: Some of Elise's % health damage has been reduced and she now offers a slight bit more utility. She can be built as a damage mage, but if the player chooses to go the tanky route, she can still help with crowd control. She has lower base damage stats with higher AP ratios, preventing her from being a jack of all trades.

54 Comments

Zirzon4 votes

I think secretly Rito is just scared of spiders... Elise

I miss playing Elise, she was an instant favorite for me from the moment she was released. I love the idea behind the champ. However, now her damage is absolutely pitiful. I think the "easiest" way to fix her, in my opinion, would be reducing her base damage, and buffing her ratios (which you also mentioned at some point). This means she sacrifices damage for building tank (which I never thought she was meant for), but can remain relevant late after getting damage. She doesn't have to be great, but please return her to viability Riot...

19 19 193 votes

Riot said it plenty of times, Numbers don't matter.

P0IS0N IVY10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Deceiver,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4vmOq3Lc,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-01-06T05:16:08.004+0000)

Riot said it plenty of times, Numbers don't matter.

You are correct and I am generally not one to look at numbers. I have played Elise since she was released and watched her rise and fall. All of my above comments and suggestions are from experience. Elise has little impact both early and late game at the moment.

I am only using the numbers to strengthen my argument.

HeadHonchkrow3 votes

Urgot is better than someone, finally! Urgot

futuresight232 votes

Elise doesn't seem to offer enough impact in solo queue but still in sort of comfort pick zone competitively. Too early to tell whether or not Elise is just one of those champs that does better professionally than in solo queue.

Wallaroo02261 votes

{quoted}

Elise doesn't seem to offer enough impact in solo queue but still in sort of comfort pick zone competitively. Too early to tell whether or not Elise is just one of those champs that does better professionally than in solo queue.

I have seen some competitive play with her in the off-season, and she seems to be more of a comfort pick than anything. Just look at J4 at the moment. J4 has gap closing and huge burst along with a shield and slow. Elise has a somewhat clunky morphing combo for the stun and bite that is much harder to pull off. She is really only useful if she lands a late game cocoon for picking off the enemy.

While I'm by no means a great player, it seems that Elise's early game carry ability is for the most part gone. As a result, she is so much utility that you really need to trust your team to win. At lower levels in solo queue that is an impossibility. The better players in a team must be the carries because the team as a whole is generally terrible.

Lt Cuddles1 votes

I feel like riot is going to give her the "Maokai" treatment and give her more CC, and/or more quality of life changes.

CreationFlaw2 votes

It's mostly just team composition with Elise, no? You can't just pick elise into a random comp and hope it'll be amazing. If she gets ahead slightly, she also dominates the early mid game. Maybe the ratios might work, but then again, they might not. Elise is piled in with those champions like Zac, Urgot, and Zilean right now, all with super low winrates. Honestly, I'm not sure what to say. I don't like her type of mobility, maybe rework her rappel into something still mobile, but with a different mechanic? I don't know

P0IS0N IVY5 votes

{quoted}

It's mostly just team composition with Elise, no? You can't just pick elise into a random comp and hope it'll be amazing. If she gets ahead slightly, she also dominates the early mid game. Maybe the ratios might work, but then again, they might not. Elise is piled in with those champions like Zac, Urgot, and Zilean right now, all with super low winrates. Honestly, I'm not sure what to say. I don't like her type of mobility, maybe rework her rappel into something still mobile, but with a different mechanic? I don't know

It's a team comp problem with a lot of champions that have been nerfed, but I'm having trouble figuring out what Elise is even supposed to do atm. It is extremely difficult to get ahead with her right now. I'd argue that she doesn't dominate early midgame. I have trouble outdamaging pretty much any opponent at that point when I'm not behind and it normally ends in near deaths/death situations.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

Elise has a fundamentally healthy kit. We had no real problem with her being a top tier jungler. She doesn't need a rework, just some simple buffs.

I would suggest buffs to her damage scaling, because her returns from AP feel really weak today.

Decaedeus1 votes

I actually have to disagree with this. She can do literally everything. She has range for siege situations, she is tanky, she can take towers and push quickly, she has decent assassination potential, etc. Elise is good in almost all team compositions; either she crowds out other jungle picks (why would you pick XXX when you can pick Elise who does that just as well), or she's underpowered. imo she needs a minor kit rework to give her well-defined weaknesses while amping up strengths in key areas.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

{quoted}

I actually have to disagree with this. She can do literally everything. She has range for siege situations, she is tanky, she can take towers and push quickly, she has decent assassination potential, etc. Elise is good in almost all team compositions; either she crowds out other jungle picks (why would you pick XXX when you can pick Elise who does that just as well), or she's underpowered. imo she needs a minor kit rework to give her well-defined weaknesses while amping up strengths in key areas.

I think Elise has quite a few weaknesses in her kit today.

  • Mediocre jungle clearing
  • Poor jungle sustain, especially as the game goes on
  • Poor damage scaling
  • Weak late game, in both tank and damage builds

The reason why she was a dominant jungler is that the only thing that mattered on season 4 junglers was early game dominance, and she has very good early ganking ability. It's not that she didn't have weaknesses. It's that her weaknesses were not relevant at the time.

Talamare1 votes

Seriously, if you give her like 1 or 2 more armor to do jungle slightly better she would likely have her win rate shoot up

P0IS0N IVY3 votes

{quoted}

Seriously, if you give her like 1 or 2 more armor to do jungle slightly better she would likely have her win rate shoot up

She does not have any issues getting through the jungle atm.

Talamare1 votes

{quoted}

She does not have any issues getting through the jungle atm.

Skilled Elise do not have any issues getting thru the jungle with Elise

I have seen bad Elise's nearly die and back excessively because they don't know how to juggle her spiderlings

That win rate doesn't show the win rate of only Skilled Elise, it shows the the win rate of all of them

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/by-winrate

League of Graphs only shows Gold+ players, and she holds 44.6% win rate. Narrow it to Platinum+ and she goes up to 45.2% At Diamond+ it shoots up again to 47.7%

Durzaka2 votes

{quoted}

Skilled Elise do not have any issues getting thru the jungle with Elise

I have seen bad Elise's nearly die and back excessively because they don't know how to juggle her spiderlings

That win rate doesn't show the win rate of only Skilled Elise, it shows the the win rate of all of them

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/by-winrate

League of Graphs only shows Gold+ players, and she holds 44.6% win rate. Narrow it to Platinum+ and she goes up to 45.2% At Diamond+ it shoots up again to 47.7%

That is still a very low win rate.

Zirzon2 votes

I've never had any issue getting through the jungle. In fact, I'd say Elise has one of the easiest times of sustaining through it (your spiderlings tank and heal you on attacking). However, the main issue I find is that I only deal mediocre damage early, and abysmal damage late. In fact, I can be just marginally more useful by building full tank, which I don't feel is a role Elise should be in, when all she has is one single target skillshot stun for crowd control. I want her to be more than a punching bag and very minor execute late game.

P0IS0N IVY3 votes

{quoted}

I've never had any issue getting through the jungle. In fact, I'd say Elise has one of the easiest times of sustaining through it (your spiderlings tank and heal you on attacking). However, the main issue I find is that I only deal mediocre damage early, and abysmal damage late. In fact, I can be just marginally more useful by building full tank, which I don't feel is a role Elise should be in, when all she has is one single target skillshot stun for crowd control. I want her to be more than a punching bag and very minor execute late game.

There is just simply no reason to play her at the moment. True, she has no problem in the jungle, but her ganks are not satisfying early game. If you build her tank after the laning phase, you might as well just play an actual tank champion.

Zirzon1 votes

Yes, I agree with you. Quite strongly, in fact. I was just trying to make it clear to this person why her ability to clear isn't the problem.

Byrnes1 votes

I think they are trying to put her back where she started off: a top/mid lane counter pick. She was never meant to be a main/go to champion for people, she was released as a niche pick to counter the then tank-top centered meta. Then pros were like har dar her kit let's me spam jungle creeps quickly har dar I can gank real well she is actually a jungler now. And then they nerfed her jungling.

I don't usually play her in ranked because, well, I'm a support main, but in normals (where I face higher ELO players anyway) she is still one of my strongest top lane picks against the right set of champions. Split pushing, early towers, and niche counter picks to the occasional mundo or otherwise tanky dood is where she belongs. And I like it.

P0IS0N IVY1 votes

{quoted}

I think they are trying to put her back where she started off: a top/mid lane counter pick. She was never meant to be a main/go to champion for people, she was released as a niche pick to counter the then tank-top centered meta. Then pros were like har dar her kit let's me spam jungle creeps quickly har dar I can gank real well she is actually a jungler now. And then they nerfed her jungling.

I don't usually play her in ranked because, well, I'm a support main, but in normals (where I face higher ELO players anyway) she is still one of my strongest top lane picks against the right set of champions. Split pushing, early towers, and niche counter picks to the occasional mundo or otherwise tanky dood is where she belongs. And I like it.

The result of all Riot nerfs is making champions a niche pick. That's not a bad thing, but I feel like Elise's niche is very small.

I mainly play her in the jungle, but I am curious about her top. It's logical that she would do better against tanks, as that was her purpose, but do you feel as if you are actually beating enemy top laners or simply going toe to toe with them? Also, how do you impact the game after the laning phase if split pushing is less of an option? Why do you pick Elise over, for example, Gnar?

Byrnes1 votes

{quoted}

The result of all Riot nerfs is making champions a niche pick. That's not a bad thing, but I feel like Elise's niche is very small.

I mainly play her in the jungle, but I am curious about her top. It's logical that she would do better against tanks, as that was her purpose, but do you feel as if you are actually beating enemy top laners or simply going toe to toe with them? Also, how do you impact the game after the laning phase if split pushing is less of an option? Why do you pick Elise over, for example, Gnar?

I feel like if their jungler is on top of me, yeah I'm either straight out losing or going toe to toe. But unchecked, I find her jump in power at three beats most tanks/tankier champs early. The only champion I'd say I've had a real issue with is Shyvana, because she can just be like "no" and then W away.

Transitioning into mid game I tend to play the split pushing/jungle roaming type of top laner. I sometimes pick up the sight stone and just take control of the opposing jungler's jungle (for some reason in my recent memory I've only played Elise on blue side). If my team needs me to come in, I usually do my best to be an assassin-type team fighter, approach from behind, and disrupt their carries. I also build her a bit tankier, albeit still an apc/bruiser build (liandry's, sunfire). I do admit I rely a LOT on her W. If they leave me alone for too long I can take half a turret before they can stop me. This usually means they also have to dedicate someone to me full time, and not in a fun way either because if they choose to engage on me I have their entire jungle warded AND can go over walls to jungle creeps.

As for going into late game...well that gets tricky. It's a lot like her late game in the jungle. She just sort of exists. Usually I pick a lane and stick with it, help set up objectives, etc. You can probably assassinate a carry but by now they are onto that plan (and so you hope your distraction of 2 of their members for 1 of you gives your team an edge).

As for comparisons to similar champions, for example Gnar, I reserve him specifically for heavy armor champions (have you played Gnar vs. Ryze in lane? It is just silly). Otherwise I default back to Shyvana or Quinn, who basically share the same purpose but fall under "bullies" more than "traders".

But I will stand by my belief that Elise + early liandry's + sunfire + morellos = the mundo killer. Trademark/copyrighted. Mine.

EDIT: Also, summoner 14

Talamare1 votes

Understandable, but if she does need buffs it would likely be something very minor.

P0IS0N IVY2 votes

{quoted}

Understandable, but if she does need buffs it would likely be something very minor.

I would prefer if Riot started with minor changes. The tend to overdo nerfs and buffs a lot with champions.

Lt Cuddles1 votes

Well...

Baron of Bread1 votes

The rework idea looks pretty cool, but I think the neurotoxin system seems way to much like the Nidalee rework.

What if we changed it so that instead of all this neurotoxin stuff, those additional effects take place if the target is in one of Elise's webs? If the web ability had a charge system (or a long cooldown) and wasn't so easy to use in the middle of a fight (such as having some delay before it appeared, as if spiderlings were taking time to make it) it would work well to create a trap based play style.

I think the resulting kit could look something like this:

  • Passive: Current passive.

  • Q: Human - Paralyzing Venom: Same as your spider form W, but comes from Elise, does damage, and stuns for a short duration if the target is in a Web. Spider - Venomous Bite: Same except it has increased range while Elise is in her Web, but no increased damage.

  • W: Human - Jumping Spiderling: Same as your Q idea except if it is attached to a champion and in a Web when it explodes it will knock the champion a short distance towards the center of the Web. The spiderling would grant vision much like the current Volatile Spiderling. The ability does not cost a spiderling and should have a more lengthy cooldown. Spider - Skittering Frenzy: I would keep it the same as she currently has but the AS bonus is increased if Elise is in a Web when she activates the ability.

  • E: Human - Cocoon: Your Cocoon idea but also increases the effect of slows on the target by some amount for 5 seconds if the target was in a Web when hit. Spider - Spider's Web: Elise's spiderlings disappear and spend 3 seconds spinning a Web in targeted location (think a 3 second delayed Trundle Frozen Domain). The Web would work similarly to your idea, but would only grant vision while Elise is in a Web and would only slow while Elise is in that Web. The area of the Webs should be visible and somehow destroyable while Elise is seeing through them (if the enemies have vision there, they should also be able to hear Elise if they are in the Web because that would be really cool). To keep the Webs from being permanent no go zones they should expire 8 seconds or so after Elise uses an ability in that Web. Costs all of Elise's spiderlings, minimum 2.

  • R: Current ultimate.

I put her venom and spiderling related abilities together simply because that makes sense to me for thematic coherence. I don't give her Webs vision all the time because that would just be free wards and terrible traps. The spiderling cost and the delay on creating the Web is so Elise has to actually set up instead of being able to drop a Web whenever she pleases (unless she trades a decent amount of power for it). Hopefully the kit would make catching people in your web worthwhile, but not so ridiculous that they are automatically doomed. I think most of the damage should be put into her spider form since most of her cc and utility is in her human form, this would make it so she would probably draw enemies into her trap in human form before locking them in and then going spider on their face to finish the job (which is what I think her play style should be).

PS: Sorry for the wall of text.

P0IS0N IVY1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4vmOq3Lc,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2015-01-06T10:47:31.258+0000)

Snip

I don't see a particular issue with the Neurotoxin thing being similar to Nidalee, unless you mean it sounds OP.

While I was thinking of a rework for her, I considered making the Web ability her main one, but that would make her ganking rather difficult.

Your rework would be good if Riot wanted to make Elise a top champion. She would have good early game and have to focus more on web placement to be effective after the laning phase.

Baron of Bread1 votes

I think it Neurotoxin would almost make her feel like Brand or Nidalee and less like a separate champion.

The Web focus does weaken her ganking, but it should also make her a significant counter-jungler. I didn't really think about what this would do to her in lane, which I really should have thought about. With that kit she might be a bit of a terror in top, which I did not intend. :(

P0IS0N IVY1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4vmOq3Lc,comment-id=000c00000000,timestamp=2015-01-08T00:10:24.613+0000)

I think it Neurotoxin would almost make her feel like Brand or Nidalee and less like a separate champion.

The Web focus does weaken her ganking, but it should also make her a significant counter-jungler. I didn't really think about what this would do to her in lane, which I really should have thought about. With that kit she might be a bit of a terror in top, which I did not intend. :(

Going by your suggestions, Elise would be turned into a farming champion, and I don't think Riot wants that.

I don't see anything wrong with the fact that she shares a similar ability flow with Nid and Brand.

Baron of Bread1 votes

My idea was she would farm the enemy jungler, not his jungle. I can see how that might turn her into a farm champion as well though.

I don't want her to have the ability flow thing because it seems close to being Brand or Nid, but that is just personal preference.

Cuoco Diavolo1 votes

I can agree that elise has dropped in popularity due to nerfs however I disagree that she needs changes personally I see elise as my go to pick for blind picking jungle cause I know what I can do with her and she's safe and while her overall win rate may be terrible I have about a 70-80% win rate on her lol

Junkο1 votes

She was nerfed because she dealt too much dmg while having amazing map presence and being tanky.

Then the resourceless Rek'sai came along...

LoliOG1 votes

i'm more concered about reksai's win rate then elise's

P0IS0N IVY2 votes

{quoted}

i'm more concered about reksai's win rate then elise's

Lol there's not reason to be worried about Rek'Sai. I guarantee you Riot will overnerf her.

LoliOG1 votes

no if riot u r reading this NERF GODDAMN FIZZ leave poor sona and others alone

Abyssphere1 votes

I don't know what they should do for her. Better scaling on her Qs would definitely be nice. And if the lifesteal on spider W scaled better too it'd also be great. Would make her a better duelist.

Her clears are already great though, and they're buffing them further on the PBE at present. It definitely seems her identity is excellent clearing, but mediocre ganks and a terrible team fight mean good clearing is pointless.

SexyTaylorSwift1 votes

But, Zilean's winrate is really bad...wasn't he like permabanned at LCS for being OP?

P0IS0N IVY1 votes

{quoted}

But, Zilean's winrate is really bad...wasn't he like permabanned at LCS for being OP?

He was. As has already been said, I don't look at solely win rate to determine whether I think a champion is weak or not.

Skia Asteri1 votes

A nice start toward buffing her would be if they let her Rappel to allies as well as enemies.

TheKingDodo1 votes

Urgot "Finally I'm not the lowest!"

PhoenixSlayer131 votes

She has a bit of a "Lee Sin" problem in that she does a number of things well without much in the way of weaknesses. A slight rework would probably be in order.

P0IS0N IVY1 votes

{quoted}

She has a bit of a "Lee Sin" problem in that she does a number of things well without much in the way of weaknesses. A slight rework would probably be in order.

I dunno if she really does anything well anymore. She doesn't have a big weakness atm, but no big strength either.

PhoenixSlayer131 votes

Thinking about it more, I can agree with you. The primary problem is that she's a generalist like Lee Sin. Right now she's underpowered because she got nerfed all around, but buff her back up and you'll probably end up with the same issues she had before of being picked almost all the time. That's the unfortunate problem with generalist-type champs: either they're everywhere or they don't exist. At least for specialists you'll see them around every so often against certain comps.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

Thinking about it more, I can agree with you. The primary problem is that she's a generalist like Lee Sin. Right now she's underpowered because she got nerfed all around, but buff her back up and you'll probably end up with the same issues she had before of being picked almost all the time. That's the unfortunate problem with generalist-type champs: either they're everywhere or they don't exist. At least for specialists you'll see them around every so often against certain comps.

Thing is they don't need to go as far as giving her everything back. They nerfed basically all her strengths, but only really need to buff like half of them to get her in a good place. Leave her Rappel/Cocoon as they are and give her some damage back.

Puaru1 votes

Bring back bonus resists on spider form and give her a tiny buff to move speed would be nice. Revert cocoon, it was fine before and seemed like Riot just hit the panic button when they realized she was better then Lee Sin and shotgunned nerfs in her direction until something hit.

Xela Syab1 votes

They should give Elise brand's passive, and they should give brand bonus movespeed on spell hits, fix two champs with 1 stone.

Durzaka1 votes

My biggest problem with Elise, when she was actually strong, was her turret diving.

She could literally turret dive at any single point in the entire game, and be guaranteed to escape, and there is nothing you can do about it. Until that is fixed, i really would rather her stay dead.

P0IS0N IVY1 votes

{quoted}

My biggest problem with Elise, when she was actually strong, was her turret diving.

She could literally turret dive at any single point in the entire game, and be guaranteed to escape, and there is nothing you can do about it. Until that is fixed, i really would rather her stay dead.

Riot nerfed it a bit by making Elise descend first rather than with her spiderlings. So she can't really dive at any point anymore :P

Durzaka1 votes

{quoted}

Riot nerfed it a bit by making Elise descend first rather than with her spiderlings. So she can't really dive at any point anymore :P

yeah, she still can.

Taking turret aggro for the dive, then dropping it onto your team mate who should be at a good amount of health is an incredibly strong turret dive.

P0IS0N IVY1 votes

{quoted}

yeah, she still can.

Taking turret aggro for the dive, then dropping it onto your team mate who should be at a good amount of health is an incredibly strong turret dive.

Again's that's not at any point. If the teammate dies or Elise happens to be the only one in range, she can't get out. Rappel is extremely buggy anyway.

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