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Lets Talk About jungling

RexZor··2 votes·1,129 views

Ok Lets be real for a second it's not that j4 and vi are extremely OP. Its that the new jungle is harder to jungle in as a whole. With that being said J4 has always been a pick since season 2 making him one of most perfect junglers with lvl 3 gank potential and a lvl 6 ult that makes his ganks even more solid. J4 is not OP its the jungle which makes him seem OP.

I will say that since he has always been in the "meta" that's a problem but why does everyone complain when a champion remains in the meta for so long especially J4 who IMO is pretty healthy as a jungler.

Now on to Vi, she was Op when she was first released then got nerfed and fell off late season 4. But with the new jungle change she has become viable again. This is yet another case of A jungler being viable because of the jungle. She is more of a bruiser than J4 and her engage is more stable. Her lvl 3 is good as j4 and her lvl ult is better. But when it comes to team fights if she ults the back line she can insta get focused and die unlike j4 who can lock the enemy team up and let your team get free spells in.

Ok the God of the Jungle lee sin. He has many problems and his whole kit is a problem. He has too much damage for the mobility he has. But i also think lee is the harder of the 3 to play. And i also feel that to play lee right requires more skill which is why is win rate is lower than the former 2. The problem is when lee is played right is obviously better than the other 2. He kit should be changed if i don't feel hes in a bad spot TBH. His late game is obviously weaker than the other 2, but he can carry the early and mid game harder if he is played right.

Lee will always be relevant in the jungle as long as his kit remains the same, Riot would have to do an entire rework in order to change that. Even if his damage, shield, slow, etc. is reduced He will always make it through as a top jungler.

No what Riot can do to fix the jungle. Lower the damage on the camps. Increase the gold gained, so that junglers who only can clear one side can get benefits from their jungle item; Or lower the price of the jungle item so that the other junglers can afford them with the current gold income. Also lower the respawn time on smaller camps. This would allow poacher to be relevant in the jungle and allow for junglers to be able to keep up in level with the rest of the game. Instead of being level 4 while other lanes are level 6. If you did this you would obviously lower the gold and exp gain for smaller camps but it could also be beneficial. Also make stalker and trailblazer not be the only useful smites. Or simply buff everyone intended to be a jungler.

What do you guys think criticism is wanted just don't be rude.

20 Comments

Karlyr2 votes

Currently I think that the jungle is in a good state right now. Yes some junglers would appreciate some more sustain and it should be a good thing.

But the main reason why I think the OVERALL jungle is in a good state :

-Gold income is STABLE. Junglers are now able to have something close to the amount of gold of the average laners. -The jungle is hard to clear. Laners can't REALLY go and do some camps unless they want to go back before going to lane. -The junglers now have "free" wards to get in the jungle. Yes they have to compete for the crab. But still, they have a "free" ward.

The remaining things are just to be fixed. It's not every champ that should be able to jungle. Or else you end up with crazy stuff. Yes some junglers need help. But more often than not, they also need help with their basic kit/itemization. (Sejuani, nautilus, skarner are good examples)

For Vi and J4 : They are what the junglers should become imo. It's sad that their kit are perfectly tailored for solo queue. But it's something you'll have to deal with or ban. They might have some LITTLE scaling issues (because of the new gold income), but you can't get their CC out. These champs have limited mobility and once in if they failed to judge the timing, they will die/be heavily damaged before the fight starts.

Junglers with the same crazy ganking potential : Sejuani, Maokai, Skarner. If Riot give some true love to them, you'll see that J4 and Vi are nothing to worry about.

Lee Sin : His damage output is weak, but he has so much mobility that he is and will stay a threat as long as he has 2 flash, 1 slow and 1 knockback in his kit.

This said, J4 and Vi are not that OP. The jungle should stay super close to what it is right now. Low class junglers should be given some love. Currently, people even tend to forget to ward against the jungler (this says how much junglers are threatning right now...)

BouncingPecs2 votes

Wait, what are you talking about? Vi and J4 have "limited" mobility? Their mobility is one of their BIGGEST issues. Very few junglers have skillshot gap closers that can go through terrain.

Aatrox JarvanIV LeeSin Khazix Zac Sejuani Shaco Vi

With the exception of Zac, every jungler here is viable right now.

Karlyr1 votes

{quoted}

Wait, what are you talking about? Vi and J4 have "limited" mobility? Their mobility is one of their BIGGEST issues. Very few junglers have skillshot gap closers that can go through terrain.

Aatrox JarvanIV LeeSin Khazix Zac Sejuani Shaco Vi

With the exception of Zac, every jungler here is viable right now.

You are kidding right ? Aatrox Shaco Khazix Viable ? you are clearly kidding.

BouncingPecs2 votes

Kha'zix actually is, you clearly don't watch competitive play.

But that aside, the major players in the jungle have mobility and great scaling. That is the biggest issue right now.

Bears Dont Care2 votes

{quoted}

Currently I think that the jungle is in a good state right now. Yes some junglers would appreciate some more sustain and it should be a good thing.

But the main reason why I think the OVERALL jungle is in a good state :

-Gold income is STABLE. Junglers are now able to have something close to the amount of gold of the average laners.

This is factually false, the amount of gold obtained by a jungler in S4 is higher than the amount of gold obtained in S5, and in S4, the gold obtained was less than what a laner would receive.

-The jungle is hard to clear. Laners can't REALLY go and do some camps unless they want to go back before going to lane.

Not particularly, you still have bottom laners killing the krugs for a quick level 2 at the start of the game.

-The junglers now have "free" wards to get in the jungle. Yes they have to compete for the crab. But still, they have a "free" ward.

That does not make it free at all, itonly wards dragon/baron, it moves and takes time to kill. It isn't a ward since it doesn't protect your jungle entrance.

Lee Sin : His damage output is weak

Not at all.

Lee's QQER: 1140 + 480% AD + 8% missing HP

Zed's RWQE, considering 50% damage amplification, 2 shrunken hits and passive: 948 + 415% AD + 6-10% max HP

Talon's EQWR, considering 15% damage amplification: 1035 + 400% AD

Now mind you, the damage from Zed will be slightly higher when you consider his AD amplification, SLIGHTLY, if they both built straight damage Lee Sin would remain very competitive on top of retaining a higher amount of utility and mobility.

Troy2426212 votes

The issue at hand isn't simply that Lee and Vi are overpowered (And they are). It's that they're both generalists with no exploitable weakness. As a result, they are essentially "Does it all," generalists that will always be either overbearing and overpowered or underwhelming if nerfed.

At currently, they're overbearing, and because they're generalists it exasperates the problem even further because they'll constrict the viable champion pool by outclassing everything. They can even shove specialists out of their own role for f*ck's sake.

So, regardless if anyone thinks that every jungler should be buffed except them or if they should be nerfed, it really doesn't matter because their current design is very unhealthy to both sides of the fence and needs a rework to add a weakness that can be actively and consciously abused by their enemies.

Really think about it. Udyr gets picked? Get high mobility and CC. Yi picked? Time to stock up in the CC department. Shaco picked? Watch the bushes for his puffs and be very careful in the jungle. Lee Sin? Well. I hope our jungler also picks a generalist, or else they're at an automatic disadvantage.

Karlyr2 votes

{quoted}

The issue at hand isn't simply that Lee and Vi are overpowered (And they are). It's that they're both generalists with no exploitable weakness. As a result, they are essentially "Does it all," generalists that will always be either overbearing and overpowered or underwhelming if nerfed.

Junglers always had to be some sort of generalist and will always need to (especially in solo queue). You can't predict how your lanes will do. You NEED to adapt. If you can't adapt, you're as usefull as if you were never there in the first place.

Lee Sin ? Pick Sejuani (which is a specialist) and freeze the team the time of the teamfight. Flee invades, try to counter gank / gank lanes where he's not at.

Troy2426212 votes

Specialists can adapt. You don't need to negate all your weaknesses to be a jungler. Fiddlesticks is a specialist with weaknesses and he was doing just dandy. Sejuani is pretty popular right now, and she's certainly not a generalist.

Karlyr2 votes

Vi and J4 has weaknesses. As I said it, they have limited mobility.

Vi tends to have horrible pre 6 ganks and is super squishy early on. If she gets behind, she tends to be to squishy/don't get enough damage output. J4 is in the same boat.

The main problem isn't these 2 junglers. The main problem is that invaders are not being played.

And, as I said before, yes they might have a LITTLE too much scaling (especially J4).

Sejuani is a support jungler. It's like the definition of a character that doesn't need to adapt. She is a specialist. And fiddlestick is one good example of a good specialist, I'll give you that. And he is still viable, BUT needs a buff to help him counter invades imo.

And it's false to say ALL that specialist can adapt. Go ahead and say to me (without laughing) that tank Rengar is viable.

Orbv2 votes

Wow so much wrong with this statement.

Vi and J4 has weaknesses. As I said it, they have limited mobility.

What do you mean limited? They can both go through walls and over terrain, they both have 2 gap closers, 1 skill shot and 1 targeted. Who also has 2 gap closers as a jungler? Lee Sin. They all have A LOT of mobility. That is a major issue, among many others.

There are plenty of junglers with no gap closers, speed boosts barely count. Chogath DrMundo Evelynn Fiddlesticks Nautilus Olaf Skarner Udyr Volibear

Also, you laugh at Tank Rengar????????? Have you SEEN the LCS at all in the past month? Did you watch OGN at all last year?...

Rylrak2 votes

For Vi and J4 : They are what the junglers should become imo. It's sad that their kit are perfectly tailored for solo queue. But it's something you'll have to deal with or ban. They might have some LITTLE scaling issues (because of the new gold income), but you can't get their CC out. These champs have limited mobility and once in if they failed to judge the timing, they will die/be heavily damaged before the fight starts.

BouncingPecs2 votes

Is there ANY jungler who will not die or be heavily damaged from engaging? Anyone?

The issue is that these champions HAVE ways in and out. A Vi can engage with Ult and disengage also. She has a shield based on using abilities. And she has AoE CC, if there is someone in her way, they will be knocked aside. You CANNOT miss it.

Jarvan IV can ult and then escape as well, AoE CC, and also has a targeted Ult. It is impossible for them to be irrelevant in a game. It is impossible.

That's like saying that nautilus ult won't matter even though it's a targeted AOE CC ult.

Bears Dont Care2 votes

{quoted}

Is there ANY jungler who will not die or be heavily damaged from engaging? Anyone?

The issue is that these champions HAVE ways in and out. A Vi can engage with Ult and disengage also. She has a shield based on using abilities. And she has AoE CC, if there is someone in her way, they will be knocked aside. You CANNOT miss it.

Jarvan IV can ult and then escape as well, AoE CC, and also has a targeted Ult. It is impossible for them to be irrelevant in a game. It is impossible.

That's like saying that nautilus ult won't matter even though it's a targeted AOE CC ult.

Um...what game do you play where Vi ults a team then escapes with Q? Last I saw, it takes over a second to charge and can be body blocked.

Orbv1 votes

I don't understand why you copied an incorrect statement.

There is not a single jungler who isn't wrecked from being behind or missing their CC. Well except for Lee Sin, Vi, J4 and Nautilus. You can't miss targeted CC, it will always be relevant. I'm actually glad for Naut, but he doesn't do NEARLY as much damage as the other 3.

Also Gold income has barely anything to do with it. They all have high base damage too. They shouldn't have both.

TheIronCarrot1 votes

I think that the hunters machete should be healing more since some champions have a hard time jungling when they cannot heal. Master yi has his meditate warwick have his q and fiddlesticks has his drain but lee sin doesnt have anything to heal up and will easily die in the new jungle.

RexZor1 votes

{quoted}

I think that the hunters machete should be healing more since some champions have a hard time jungling when they cannot heal. Master yi has his meditate warwick have his q and fiddlesticks has his drain but lee sin doesnt have anything to heal up and will easily die in the new jungle.

true making to heal more would help with earlier. I think Riot could do this for champs who don't has self sustain. But i think they won't because this make every champ be able to clear the whole jungle and remove what they originally wanted the jungle to be harder. But they could find a medium i think.

Serevas2 votes

{quoted}

I think that the hunters machete should be healing more since some champions have a hard time jungling when they cannot heal. Master yi has his meditate warwick have his q and fiddlesticks has his drain but lee sin doesnt have anything to heal up and will easily die in the new jungle.

He has the shield, lifesteal, and spell vamp on his W which all you need to do is spam the crap out of your abilities when the second activation is up to get yourself healed up as Lee. He's got plenty of sustain, I also think that smite still heals you when it's active, I don't recall for sure.

FenrirStriker1 votes

lee has spellvamp and lifesteal built into his kit...

Cresta Cruxis1 votes

I think you should also take into consideration Rengar. He might not seem much with standard Ad,Ar,Mr runes but if u use attack speed quints and Cdr glyphs he becomes very good. His clear time is decent and u can get the purple jungle item and exchange it with the blue one later for ganks. By learning to throw the empowered bola while he is in mid air with ult the kill is pretty sure. Sure he takes a lot of skill and practice to master but can be played in many ways (assasin, fighter or full tank) and synergise with many champions, expecially top laners for an even solid engage in team fights wich could also rival j4's engage as it is more umpredictable.

FenrirStriker1 votes

Currently I think the jungle has good ideas (the buffs for each camp), however it still needs to be tweaked, most junglers you see nowadays tend to be bruisers or high substain junglers. you mostly see the same junglers over and over again ( vi, lee, j4, ww etc) it feels that tanky/utility junglers for the most part are at a disadvantage compare to the rest. gold income is still an issue. its too easy to fall behind in the jungle now.

tanks need to be buffed for the jungle ( ex nautilus, love his late game now, but feel his build is restricted due to his new scaling and jungle pretty weak). some modification in the masteries could potentially help. or potentially try to buff the machete for its healing and/or lower the damage output of the jungle monsters to make it so that machete heals shows on tank junglers ( slower clear means getting out of the jungle healthier)

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