It's a pity that all the AP jungle item is always a failure

BeatzBoyFTW··26 votes·1,805 views

Magus- A blank AP item which doesn't benefit much. Runeglaive- Sucks on AP casters, and heavily abused in Mid Lane (_fk u _Ezreal )

Runic Echoes- Every AP junglersGragas Elise Sejuani kept this as the only AP item (mostly benefitting just for the bonus movement speed), and then proceeds full tank builds, especially Udyr .


Kinda sucks that Riot kept in investing their time on this poor AP jungle item here almost all the time. I know my idea would sucked to hell, but what if the AP jungle item has 2 passives? Hold your downvotes....

This is my idea which could counter all 3 conditions the 3 jungle item encountered:

Runic Deathcap (name sucks, I know, stfu :p)

  • 50 AP
  • 5% Movement Speed

Unique Passive- Echo (same shit). Unique Passive - Rabadon: Increases Ability Power by 50%.

Build path: Exactly same as Runic Echoes

Few reasons why I think this would solve the problems imo:

  • The Rabadon unique passive would solve the "AP, then full tank" build path, as this doesn't seem like the intended path the AP jungle item was aiming for.
  • No Sheen builds included in it to prevent Ezreal from abusing it in Mid Lane.
  • Movement Speed nerfed down since item 3009 got real popular, and this item should compensate the nerf.

I dunno if this would be the real thing, but I'll let you guys think about it.

40 Comments

Abyssphere8 votes

This is interesting. I'm not quite sure how good an idea it is (and I think 50% is massively over the top) but I'd be interested to see how this works out. First of all a jungle Deathcap deals with the issue of AP + tank and second of all it deals with the issue of AP junglers typically ending at far lower AP values than their mid lane counterparts because their core item has only 60 AP on it, which is matched only by Grail mid laners.

I think your numbers are somewhat heavily overtuned but I think it's a great concept, would love to see what Riot think of it.

BeatzBoyFTW2 votes

I've done some math before I posted this, forgot to add it into the thread.

For example, a typical mage jungler would buy this:

item 3009item 1402 item 3157 item 3116 item 3027 item 3089

And math would go like:

50 + 100 + 100 + (80+40) + 120 = 490

And now adding the Rabadon passive (Runic's, not Deathcap's since it's higher):

490 + ( 0.5 x 490 ) = 735

And to me, this looks like a typical average number for any AP champs to gain.

Leeerzeichen18 votes

But why shouldn't every ap midlane champ take smite and build your item instead of rabadons?

LordGeovanni1 votes

there is no reason to force them not to if they can make a build work it shouldn't be nerfed out of existence cause its different runic echoes was a problem make the aoe only work on monsters problem solved but no whole item has to be reworked the aoe was only meant to help with jungle clears so why would it matter if it didnt work on minions and champions

RocketRelm1 votes

One, nobody would build both Deathcap and this item, it'd be one or the other.

Two, it's actually kinda rare for an AP midlaner to get 700+ AP anymore.

RoA + Void Staff + Rabadons + Hourglass + Abyssal = 490 *1.35 = 661.5

Top end builds curve out at about 729 ish (540*1.35), Seraphs Embrace and Veigar aside.

So yeah, you can't actually get 735 AP on most mid laner builds, by default.

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

If Gangplank can buy 2 item 3031 and a random Vayne buying 2 item 3046 back then, then I don't see why not lol. Js.

And yea, I wasn't even sure about my math here since I neglect the soft reset thingy, but thanks anyway.

Zero Skill Tank7 votes

Rabadon's Ridinghood

You get it? Because wolves and forest :D

No? :<

On serious note it could be hard to put Deathcap's passive on item you are going to rush without it being either OP or underwhelming.

C9 Scott Free 1 votes

{quoted}

Rabadon's Ridinghood

You get it? Because wolves and forest :D

No? :<

On serious note it could be hard to put Deathcap's passive on item you are going to rush without it being either OP or underwhelming.

Thats just it though it would come out to like 100 AP when you factor in runes and the percentage buff which puts them at the same AP most mids have at the time. It scales aggressively sure but so does Cinderhulk passive and Sated. It solidifies that the AP jungle item is so you build into more AP but doesn't give a bunch of stats early.

Sire Hippington7 votes

Elise often enough builts more ap focused, and seju+gragas aren't ap-junglers, they are tanks that abuse the ap-jungle item as it offres them all the nice things that cinderhulk doesn't: clearspeed, manasustain, ms and burst. You also forgot Nidalee...

And that you rarly see full ap junglers in proplay is simply that jungle is mostly a supportive role with lowish goldincome for most of it, and tanky builts are more gold-efficient. You also nearly never see ad junglers or devourer in competetive play for that reason, at max you see warriors+cleaver or titanic and rest tank.

And for your idea, a rabadons with a higher ap-amp for ~60% of the cost and with an echos proc aswell as ms? No way this wouldn't be abused by every ap useing laner and probably even supports. Ruinc echos has the potential to be a good jungle item if properly tuned. the main reason it is used on tanks is that cinderhulk is a bad option, it gives to little clearspeed and doesn't solve the mana issues most tanks actually have, and it doesn't add that much power to ganks, though thats ok as it offers better stats for teamfights on the tanky guys. But the low clearspeed and lack of sustain make it just an inferior option. I don't see it as a problem if junglers have the option to start more agressive and then go tank, as long as it's a choice with tradeoffs. Right now the other options are just so bad that it's a not realy a choice.

Voluug131 votes

What RE needs is less base damage and more ratio.

That way it is still just as good on AP junglers, but it doesnt deal as much damage when full tank.

Sire Hippington2 votes

i really don't see an issue with RE on tanks, The major problem imo lies in cinderhulk beeing a poor alternative atm as it gives to little imideate advantage. it will outscale RE on tanks, but as said, the earlygame is way to important for junglers and this is where cinderhulk simply doesn't deliver at all. Again, i don't think RE is to strong right now, not after all the nerfs, it's jzust that the other options aren't really great. And if RE remains on the strong side, i think reduceing the ms to 5% would be the first step to get it in line.

Meep Man5 votes

Everyone who is building Runic Echoes that isn't a Mage isn't building it really because it's not a well designed item, it's because their own jungle enchantment is subpar in design. Tanks mainly.

Also, Gragas and Sejuani aren't AP, they are Tank. They usually only build AP if their team doesn't need another Tank (rare) or their AP Ratios are too big.

Levik3 votes

The AP jungle item should not be giving a buff to clear times and movement speed. AP junglers do not have problems with clear times, so it is just giving more options to champions that already excel at jungling. Furthermore, the movement speed gives this weird advantage to "AP" junglers who most of which do not even need. Nidalee is already insanely slippery, Elise/Gragas/Diana/Ekko are not slow in the jungle, and Fiddlesticks doesn't need the movement speed since his combo is a blink into Zonyas.

Ruin Lance3 votes

this would be the most abused item ever. EVERY single ap champion would take this as a whole 50% ability power bonus is way too good to pass up. you're getting a luden's echo AND deathcap in one item. what were you thinking???

Drehirth2 votes

Well the attack speed ones seem to be failures too, no?

Celeste Benal2 votes

Build that. Then build Rabadon's. Never build anything again. 1-shot all the things.

Not OP. Not at all.

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

UNIQUE PASSIVE

Technically means if he builds item 1402 item 3089 , it will follow only item 1402 passive since it's higher than item 3089 .

DorkunedAuras1 votes

WHY THE HELL IS IT HIGHER THAN item 3089 WHILE HAVING item 3285 BUILT IN?

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

Cz Runic Echoes does not have 120 AP or 100 AP like Deathcap or Luden does.

DorkunedAuras1 votes

not much of justification, given that it's 15% higher than rabadon's + having luden's procs + having jungler passives on probably a jungle item's price point. 15% bonus AP easily makes up for the 70 AP you lose. at 500 AP, you're ahead

Miku Lv992 votes

That item is way OP and would be the first item almost every AP champion would get and would replace the Rabadon's in their build. Even for AP mids they'd bring smite just so they could build that item, it's so powerful.

Old Man Teeto2 votes

They shouldn't have put Move Speed onto a jungle item. (or arguably ALL of them should have had the Move speed stat)

For a champion that spends more time moving around the map than any other role, it's too strong of a stat to put onto an item that isn't under budget elsewhere.

Aside from that, the item is fine. In my opinion I'd revert it to 80 AP and rebuff the Luden's proc damage and remove the move speed. I might even give it a tertiary passive that gives better sustain, but that might be pushing it.

runedara2 votes

How can you not mention udyr when you talk about this item?

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

Cz I wrote "AP Junglers", but I can add it in.

Leeerzeichen1 votes

The main problem is that most ap junglers (I'm mostly talking about ekko, Diana, fizz( and Elise), because those are my mains) need as much early damage as possible to have a healthy and fast clear, because they often have pretty low base damage and weak autos in comparison to tank or ad junglers. They also need early damage to have some pressure against the enemy jungler.

paisy5 votes

Weak auto attacks? Ekko passive, Diana passive, Elise W, Fizz W.

Leeerzeichen3 votes

Yes, they can empower their auto attacks (which is they reason why they are viable junglers), but almost every ad jungler can do similar things (lee sin passiv, master yi e, shyvana e, w, wukong e, ...) on top of their ad advantage. This is mostly a problem when you also have low early game base damage (so you have to do more damage with your auto attacks). Elise for example can burst you down to 25% of your hp with her abilities and has a good hp advantage in the following auto attack battle. Ekko can't do this, he can maybe burst you down to 60% of you hp.

s LessThanThree1 votes

What you talking about? Have you SEEN runic echoes gragas, udyr, elise, diana?

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

And look at that. Udyr nerfs. Just for buying that Runic Echoes build before going out full tank.

http://i.imgur.com/0mKXcg1.gif?noredirect

Should have just stick to his own Cinderhulk/Warrior builds if he had the chance.

Ralanr1 votes

What if it had an effect that required jungle farm to fully use? To prevent lane abuse.

Velasan1 votes

I just disagree. Runic echoes is a great AP jg item and makes a lot more sense and is not reliant on the JG needing certain stats because it always grants the burst. Not to mention that the stats on Runic Echoes are all universally helpful for AP junglers and its opposite item with the unique passive (Ludens) wouldn't be built on any of the JG's who take it.

It's a very good efficient answer to the AP jungle item problem that "echoes" the ludens that mid laners would be buying for extra burst. I only wish they didn't have to nerf it because of Udyr abuse lol.

Adding the passive would only make it more abuse-able by other champions.

Saianna1 votes

Imo you are wrong, all of those items were pretty much fine for their niche champs, what we needed was all 3 of them together to choose from.

Ofc some balancing to match current meta etc and we are goood to go.

LordGeovanni1 votes

i think the problem is that they trying to make 1 item to cover so many different play style champions. let the diffrent items all exist and let it become a game of what people need so they can build what they need let item diversity come back rather than champions just all building the same thing and you dont really have to look at what your enemies are building cause they build what everyone else builds

Bladerunner77771 votes

rip magus item 3070 Fiddlesticks item 3070

RobErt D View N1 votes

Or they could just make a new ap jungle item that copies torment. Wouldn't be op on few and weak but a must-buy on others and would have gated DoT.

Plus it would actually be a consistently useful item early/mid/late/end-game that isn't broken for mage/tank users.

aperson11 votes

Jungle items shouldn't have movespeed, period. Movespeed is effectively ganking speed, gold per 10 and increased juking ability all in one stat for junglers, it's made Echoes a no brainer on any champ with a decent AP ratio. There is a reason Boots of Mobility was must buy for Junglers back in season 2... I can't believe Riot has made this same mistake again.

Sohleks1 votes

That's way too drastically OP.

Just increase the AP ratio of the echo proc, maybe by a lot, at expense of the base damage.

It's not like they have to though. Runic echos is not weak for AP champs. Its scaling is slightly disappointing though. Totally sell echos for a lichbane or rylias end game. Not the end of the world.

The same can be said about Luden's Echo itself, however that item is fine as it's meant as a powerspike/waveclear tool. The jungle item could probably curve up a little better with its ap ratio to compensate for the nerf.

Chuck Charles1 votes

50% ap??? i would build this as a solo laner. no thanks.

Llanite1 votes

I builds it and does just fine as Fizz, Fidd and Sona. It has enough cost-efficiency. Tanks go for tank items because they are tank. You can build whatever you want after runic.

A jungler item should be universal, anyone could use it and free to continue their build path of choice. I don't see a point of putting arbitrary effect and excludes other perfectly viable champs from using it.

Bellows1 votes

Great Idea actually, would love to see this, upvoted <3 AurelionSol

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