In general, why don't items have seperate stats/effect strengths for ranged and melee?

abdul569··47 votes·1,521 views

Balance wise, I don't see a problem with this. In fact it should helps much more with balance.

EG. with rylais it could have been: 400 hp 100 ap unique passive: 40% slow and underneath that it says 'for ranged: -25AP 20% slow instead of 40%'

Or with steraks b4 it's massive nerf : 'for ranged: the shield is 50% effective'

It doesn't even have to be a nerf for ranged. If melee were abusing item 3094 (Hec and Ekko and use it's increased range passive) then you can nerf the item's on hit damage and add 'for ranged: +25% effect on passive' so that for ranged, it does same amount of damage while dealing less for melee

Balancewise, I find this very beneficial. ranged abusing an item? you can change the ranged penalties/bonuses without harming the melee classes. melee abusing an item meant for ranged? nerf the item, buff ranged effect. That way by balancing the item for one class, you don't harm the item for the other. It also prevents the build path restrictions that 'making an item ranged or melee only' does.

The only downside is probably the information overload that it will bring. IE. numbers may become too confusing for new playes (and old). Apart from that I don't see many downsides to it and I feel the benefits outweigh the downside.

17 Comments

Zero Skill Tank20 votes

And why don't mobile champions don't get shittier items than immobile?

Oh right. Because it is better to compensate for weaknesses in a champions kit by putting strengths in this kit, because you can do this on case-by-case basis. A Sivir doesn't deserve the same kind of "ranged-penalty" that a Xerath would. Zed doesn't deserve the same kind of "melee-bonus" like immobile Darius would.

abdul5691 votes

{quoted}

And why don't mobile champions don't get shittier items than immobile?

Oh right. Because it is better to compensate for weaknesses in a champions kit by putting strengths in this kit, because you can do this on case-by-case basis. A Sivir doesn't deserve the same kind of "ranged-penalty" that a Xerath would. Zed doesn't deserve the same kind of "melee-bonus" like immobile Darius would.

your examples are a bit off. I understand your argument but you don't see a sivir building item 3285 or xer going item 3031 or your melee egsample: darius is probably not getting item 3142 and zed is probably not getting item 3053 . The item changes I proposed is more the difference is between ranged using the item and when a melee does. egsampl e being when cas uses rylais and when morde does. Nerfing rylais means cas becomes more balanced but at the same time morde goes to the gutter. However if a ranged penalty/buff is placed then you could adjust the ranged part.

Chembaron Yamada4 votes

In case of Cassiopeia and Mordekaiser: If Mordekaiser gets gutted by the nerfs, buffs to his kit will follow to compensate for it. That is basically what he is saying. Why making items unnecessary complicated if we can balance the champion and his kit itself?

And if they would do what you just said, when is it actually an abuse? Some people say that item 3031 should have less benefit for ranged champions, meanwhile it is meant to be bought by marksmen by Riot.

And keep in mind: while you can do the same for items like item 3085 and item 3094, there are not many items considered as "ranged only". We would need a load of ranged items first to do this in a fair way.

DunkinNoobs7 votes

Because Riot prefers to bake the differences into the champion kits themselves. Yasuo double crit/Aatrox AS steroids is the best example of this. Riot only differentiates between ranged and melee on the items in extreme cases, namely Rageblade and Mallet.

Danjeng2 votes

Agreed. Melees have vastly different kits than ranged. For example, gap closers, or damage reduction, or an incredible AD steroid. Only a select few items could be really game-breaking if built on ranged (Like crescent passive). And ofc like DunkinNoobs said, Rageblade and Mallet would be too easy to build up stacks.

Requiemsfire3 votes

The sad part is it's very rare for a melee to abused a ranged intended item simply because of one reason, melee's can't kite with it.

Like look at Ezreal, he has a history item 3100 item 3025

Ackelope1 votes

is ezreal using lich bane really an abuse case? i think it's pretty fine. as someone who plays a lot of ezreal i can understand that playing against iceborn on him can be hell, frozen over, but i dont think lich bane has ever been a balance issue on him.

Avios11 votes

I think he meant IBG and Runeglaive, and just about every other item in the game, mostly because Ezreal is the posterchild for abusing items.

Ackelope1 votes

yeah i took that into consideration, just decided to go with a more literal interpretation. it's a bit of a shame, really. i liked runeglaive on some champions. around that time i played a lot of ap ekko jungle, and runeglaive was quite nice on him.

Ahristocats3 votes

because it requieres a brain to do this

but you should not do it on every items Dota2 recently opened diffusal blade and vladimir's offering to ranged champ because if you do this on every items then the diversity of build is being reduced.

Sona Ping2 votes

item 3116 Rumble

Ðelofasht2 votes

I believe the player base has been asking for this for some time. I do not believe anyone likes items intended for other classes having to be balanced around whether the ADC is going to break that item. It may actually be done in such a way to increase item diversity for some champs, a case could be made for ranged items being made better for melee, perhaps providing small defensive stats when used by a melee. Just putting ideas out there, build diversity seems a bit stifled right now in general, so many obviously strong items and very few items whose niches are able to be utilized due to the sheer oppressive power for the more versatile stat sticks.

Neko Caitlyn2 votes

Differences are already accounted for. Theyre called base stats.

Sasogwa2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Neko Caitlyn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4qEHwErX,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-11-25T14:43:26.036+0000)

Differences are already accounted for. Theyre called base stats.

Base stats don't really change the amount of power you get from an item. Whether you have 500 or 0 base AD, you'll still get the same on-hit damage from botrk, the same crit% from a crit item, the same attack speed for an as item, the same AD for an AD item etc. Base damages measure how strong you are without offensive items, and are not to be mixed with overall damage potential. A champion can have extremely low base damages and great scalings and steroids, making him stronger with items than another champion that was stronger than him without items. Now, the problem with ranged champions is that range itself is such a good steroid (safety, free harass) that ranged champions get too much scaling with items without even having great ratios/steroids. A way to solve that would be to nerf the scaling of items with ranged champions.

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

Base stats don't really change the amount of power you get from an item. Whether you have 500 or 0 base AD, you'll still get the same on-hit damage from botrk, the same crit% from a crit item, the same attack speed for an as item, the same AD for an AD item etc. Base damages measure how strong you are without offensive items, and are not to be mixed with overall damage potential. A champion can have extremely low base damages and great scalings and steroids, making him stronger with items than another champion that was stronger than him without items. Now, the problem with ranged champions is that range itself is such a good steroid (safety, free harass) that ranged champions get too much scaling with items without even having great ratios/steroids. A way to solve that would be to nerf the scaling of items with ranged champions.

That would be difficult without completely overhauling the itemization, because AD, AS, and crit chance all scale with Each other. Part of the reason why ADC's are that item reliant. (late game anyways) And effectively, they are balanced around that fact because they are designed to serve as the glass cannon.

Riot doesn't take this "For him/for Her" approach with itemization. Which is why they are very reluctant to use such "melee only" or other tags of the like. And if you haven't notice, they only do so with specific kinds of utility, and never with stats.

But if you try to justify better stat's for melee on the grounds that they don't scale well, it means you have already found the real problem the "Don't scale well" part. However, I do find that argument to be an exaduration to a point. Especially with really tanky champions who actually have ratios with defensive stats. (A feature that almost exclusively melee) And it's effects like that that make Defensive itemization more beneficial to Melees than to range.

Lastly, it's not completely accurate to say that base stats have no bearing on itemization. Higher base AS means more benefit you get from %AS and on hit itemization. And Base AD combined with all other stats that affect AD, but also includes damage from sheen itemization.

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

why is this even a topic now of all times, when adcs aren't really building assassin items anymore?

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

They already started with item 3022 , 30% for ranged 40% for melee.

So they clearly don't have a problem with it.

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