AP Fighters Are Missing a Lot

Frosted Tips··20 votes·10,585 views

AP Fighters lack many items that their counterparts AD Fighters have. Some of the items that are included; Black Cleaver, Trinity Force, Sterak’s Gage, and Maw of Malmortious. Sustain Items are also lacking, but IMO that is the down side to AP Fighters no sustain items.

New Items Whip (Placeholder name)

Build: Ruby Crystal + Amplifying Tome + 365 gold

Ability Power - 30 Health - 250 Unique Passive - RAGE: Basic attacks (on-hit) grant +20 flat movement speed for 2 seconds. Killing a unit grants +60 flat movement speed instead. Bonus movement speed is halved on ranged champions.

Liandry’s Torment (Reworked)

Build: Oblivion Orb + Kindlegem + 1000 gold

Ability Power - 45 Health - 450 Cooldown Reduction - 10% Unique Passive - Abilities apply stacks of TORMENT which applies Magic Resist Shred that lasts 2 seconds (5/10/20/30%) shred for each ability cast. TORMENT duration resets whenever magic damage is dealt by the owner of Liandry’s Torment. DoT effects only can stack once per cast. Abilities like Rumble Q and Ult can stack once per second

Wit’s End (Reworked)

Build: Whip + Sheen + Recurve Bow + 333 gold

Ability Power - 35 Health - 300 Mana - 250 Attack Speed - 30% Cooldown Reduction - 10% Unique Passive - RAGE: Basic attacks (on-hit) grant +20 flat movement speed for 2 seconds. Killing a unit grants +60 flat movement speed instead. Bonus movement speed is halved on ranged champions. Unique Passive - SPELLBLADE: After using an ability, your next basic attack within 10 seconds deals (200% base AD) on-hit bonus magic damage (1.5 second cooldown). Unique Passive - +25 bonus on-hit magic damage

?????? (Melee Only)

Build: Seeker’s Armgaurd + Blasting Wand + 700 gold

Ability Power - 75 Armor - 50 Unique Passive - LIFELINE: If you would take physical damage that would reduce maximum health below 30%, you first gain a shield that absorbs 110 - 280 (based on level) physical damage for 5 seconds (90 second cooldown).

Moonflair Spellblade (Reworked) (Melee Only)

Build: Catalyst of Aeons + Amplifying Tome + Amplifying Tome + 730 gold

Ability Power - 60 Health - 300 Mana - 300 Unique Passive - ETERNITY: Restore mana equal to 15% of damage taken from champions. Restore health equal to 20% of mana spent, up to 15 health per cast, while toggle abilities can heal for up to 15 per second. Unique Passive - TENACITY: Reduces the duration of all crowd control effects by 35% (except for Suppression, Stasis, and Displacements)

Tank/Mage Abuse Tanks would for sure abuse some of these items that I have created. I personally believe this is dew to the laziness of Riots way to balance tank damage. They just made them scale with ability power and deal magic damage because it is less optimal for tankier champions to get. The way to fix this is by changing some of the tanks to deal physical damage and don’t abuse Black Cleaver. The solution for the rest of the tanks is for Riot to change their scalings and have less AP scaling and more Health scaling.

Mages are dealt with by having some items with very low AP and some items that are Melee Only.

Kits AP Fighters lack damage when they don’t build full AP. This is extremely problematic for them. This could be dealt with by adding other scalings to their kits. I believe if AP Fighters would have a few Health scalings and these new Items they would be a very unique and strong class. The last thing I would like to see be added to a few of their kits is sustain (healing) in their kit.

Edit: Are there things I missed in your opinion? Let me know, and what do you guys agree or disagree with?

65 Comments

lolipopevelynn5 votes

what AP fighters? Diana is an assassin lol. you can pretend she isnt all you want lol

Frosted Tips3 votes

What part of her kit is assassin like? A shield? A AoE hard cc? Neither of those exist on assassins, but they do exist on many fighters. Also there are other AP Fighters like Gragas, Rumble, Galio, Elise, etc.

Automated Riven2 votes

Galio is a tank. He doesn't function well at all with ap. His damage in very unreliable.

Frosted Tips1 votes

He like a little bit of AP not much but some

Raid Boss Morde3 votes

Diana Rumble Mordekaiser and Gragas , although he has a lot of CC, so more like a tank

SwiftKitten883 votes

umm i do agree they dont have the same kind of stuff AD has, but item 3151 and item 3116 are VERY good.

even defensive items such as item 3001 is decent if they have an AP threat.

i mean yeah they are pretty screwed vs AD which is what they normally have to face in lane... which is thier problem,

but that is only because there are no AP+ armor items outside of item 3157 which isn't something u want your front line to be doing, because by the time you come out of it in any teamfight .. u will no longer have a team to protect.

maybe if during the Ezreal rework they step his Q from procing both on hit AND spell effective we can get our 30 AP back on item 3025

but at the moment there is no no defense against AD as an AP champ bruisers because thier flat out better itemization.

Frosted Tips3 votes

item 3151 is a good item, but for mages not for fighters.

But where can AP Fighters get magic penetration or magic shred that is useful? item 3165 15 penetration only, item 3091 shred 30 magic resist only and is only useful on aa based champions, and item 3135 has no defensive stats it is awful to purchase on fighters. Imagine if AD Fighters had to build item 3036 or item 3033 instead of building item 3071 or using conqueror.

SwiftKitten883 votes

{quoted}

item 3151 is a good item, but for mages not for fighters.

But where can AP Fighters get magic penetration or magic shred that is useful? item 3165 15 penetration only, item 3091 shred 30 magic resist only and is only useful on aa based champions, and item 3135 has no defensive stats it is awful to purchase on fighters. Imagine if AD Fighters had to build item 3036 or item 3033 instead of building item 3071 or using conqueror.

ummitem 3151 has two passives now... might want to read them both

Frosted Tips3 votes

Where is the penetration? it gives increased damage over time fighting, but guess what both that passive and its other passive get reduced by magic resist. meaning that unless you also get item 3135 it is less useful on AP Fighters.

SwiftKitten883 votes

{quoted}

Kits AP Fighters lack damage when they don’t build full AP.

.. ok that is NOT a problem for AP bruisers.. that is a problems for AD bruisers because NO ONE should bloody be able to kill be while building no damage while build full damage.

they should take a long time to die... but if they want 6to kill me back... they NEED to buy some damage

AirKingNeo2 votes

that's because AP fighters can't actually exist. They'd need high ratios to work, but then they'd just build full AP because of Deathcap's multiplication.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Why would they need high ratios to work?

AirKingNeo1 votes

the same reasons bruisers have high ratios

they need higher ratios to compensate for having more tankiness in place of damage.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Then why don't AD fighters all build full AD with their high ratios?

AirKingNeo4 votes

no item gives a percent boost in AD.

Frosted Tips1 votes

So what if we got rid of the ability to have a percent boost in AP. Do you think that would allow for AP fighters to exist? Is that the one thing that is preventing them from being a legitimate class?

Automated Riven1 votes

Maybe. But it would then prevent mages from being a legitimate class.

Frosted Tips2 votes

You would just rebalance the class around it not existing. Like if a class is balanced around 1 item doesn't that seem unhealthy.

Automated Riven1 votes

You end up with mages being too strong earlier. Cause you have to increase the ap which makes them too powerful early. Rabadons curbs the power curve. Because it doesn't come in until later in the game. Without gutting base damage or having every mage having scaling so ratios. (which only does a little bit.

For example. Imagine Annie or lebalnc have 20 more ap at level 8. That's like 50 extra damage in a rotation. It would get pretty stupid fast.

Also every class is balanced around specific items. IE on marksmen and rabadons on mages. Black cleaver on fighters. Jungle items on junglers and so on. To argue that you can just remove items and rebalance is what made this season suck super bad. Because they removed runes and are trying to rebalance around new arguably broken system.

Frosted Tips2 votes

I think that is very strange to think that way sense there have been long periods of time where no one bought deathcap. They had to buff it to get people to purchase it and the game felt fine idk I feel like if that is how the game was%is balanced then there is a much bigger problem. Plus not every champion that is viable gets those other items you talk about. Like not every mage is a deathcap mage and not every adc is a IE adc and almost no fighter buys black cleaver anymore plus when most did some still bought trinity force instead and some junglers don't finish their jungle item so idk I just feel like that is a lazy way to balance and look at the game.

M00ndanc32 votes

Jax [sg-syndra]

OtterlyLost1 votes

I agree that a large part of why Diana fails as an AP bruiser is just that there arent items to support her. But I also understand why it's hard to make items to support her as well. Anything you made for AP bruisers would run the risk of being used by mages and, subsequently, abused.

Ravenhale3 votes

Mage abuse can be canceled simply by making AP Bruiser items melee only.

Leetri2 votes

Then you'd get people complaining like they do about Duskblade. "Riot is FORCING AP bruisers to build these items to be viable and every AP bruiser builds exactly the same. Riot should just remove this item and buff X instead."

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Mage abuse can be canceled simply by making AP Bruiser items melee only.

that is a design compout tho.

Skins Project1 votes

I feel like part of being a fighter is NOT being AP... Like I just can't think of a champion who's AP off the top of my head who'd I'd classify as a fighter.

I'm so confused rn ;-;

Frosted Tips1 votes

Well one that has been meta before and was a staple champion for awhile is Elise

But why can every other class be either AD or AP?

Skins Project1 votes

Is elise a fighter tho?

Like this is my point, I don't feel like the champions who are ap who can BE called fighters really are.

Elise plays like an assasin or bust mage.

I feel like the nature of AP & it's higher numbers puts champions into either

-> Burst

-> Poke

-> Aoe

Then a few DPS mages.

I don't feel like any of these can be classified as a fighter, or maybe it's just my perception is skewed.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Elise legit is one of the few champions that have been called a fighter that has been played relatively consistently.

Skins Project1 votes

Idk, I've personally at least never seen elise played as a fighter, I just see her as a burst champion, who can aa to follow through if the burst doesn't do it. She just doesn't play like one, it's about getting a stun and killing them before they can do much else imo.

Frosted Tips1 votes

From season 3 through season 7 at least she was primarily played as a fighter

rtbf2216514121 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skins Project,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4nA4BGWo,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-08-10T23:23:08.612+0000)

I feel like part of being a fighter is NOT being AP... Like I just can't think of a champion who's AP off the top of my head who'd I'd classify as a fighter.

I'm so confused rn ;-;

Diana

Skins Project1 votes

She's not really a figher tho, she's a diver mainly...

Frosted Tips1 votes

Diver is a subclass of fighter

Skins Project1 votes

Mmmmm, alright then, it's probably my perception issues. When you say fighter I think more bruiser then the general class, further accentuating that idea is the examples you brought up- triforce, black cleaver- which are also used in a more bruiser type champion. Which in my opinion just doesn't suit AP, being it's something that overall is focused on scaling abilities, and not sustained damage or aa's.

thecowley1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skins Project,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4nA4BGWo,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-08-10T23:23:08.612+0000)

I feel like part of being a fighter is NOT being AP... Like I just can't think of a champion who's AP off the top of my head who'd I'd classify as a fighter.

I'm so confused rn ;-;

Diana is the closest in my opinion. With some tweaks, she could become an ap fighter/bruiser. Right now she is better built for full burst though

Shablagoo1 votes

item 3027 item 3151 item 3165 item 3157 and in some cases item 3040 plus all the ap items that exist in the game can be used by them. I am not seeing your point of them missing anything. The last mage item rework made them so much stronger, if anything ap assassins need real items genuine items for them. They are the only class that doesn't actually have items for themselves.

Also there is nothing stoping them form getting Gunblade, it is just a great item then gives insta sustain.

Frosted Tips1 votes

There is no penetration and no resistances and no auto attack modifiers. Those items are all better on mages than AP fighters.

Shablagoo1 votes

auto attack modifiers? Are you talking about battle mages, because battle mages are the closes form of "ap fighter" we have. No penetration? item 3135 and item 3165 are not a form of penetration? No resistances health isnt a form of resistances, pretty much resisting death in some cases by having more health, battle mages have many forms of black clever, not in the sense that it gives magic resist shred, which it shouldnt because magic resist is really low. But in the sense that many items give hp and ap, like bc give ad and hp. Perfect stats for both. No battle mage need auto attack modifiers as they use spells not autos.

To me the majority of your items are just ad rip off's, and you have this perceptions, miss guided one at that, that "ap fighters" work the same as ad fighters. There are only two real ap fighters which are elise and diana, which are actually divers, and like most divers building in between doesnt work well, in truth most divers build full dmg.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Fighters need percent penetration so they can fight people building resistance. That is why Black Cleaver exists (not as good because of conqueror but that will probably be gone next season). If AD fighters had to build the equivalent of item 3135, it would be item 3033 or item 3036 which would be absolutely horrendous.

Also Diana a "fighter." Yes her kit is designed to be a fighter but she can't build that why because it is not viable and never has been because the proper AP items don't exist. She is built full AP assassin.

AP Fighters include: Diana, Ekko, Elise, Galio, Gragas, Kennen, Mordekaiser, Nidalee, Rumble, and Singed

Shablagoo1 votes

Ekko isnt a ap fighter he is an assassin, galio, gargas, are tanks. Nid, singed, and kenny are unique playstyles. The only real "ap fighters" are diana, mord, and elise. The are fighters because they fall under the diver subclass of fighters. Again I dont get why you have this idea that ap and ad are similar in some way but they are really quite different. This mr shred Item will be broken along with the current pen items not just on these champions but some many others

Frosted Tips1 votes

If Ekko is an assassin then so is Riven. They can only one shot when extremely far ahead but usually want to get their opponents health lower fo an quick and easy fight. Galio and Gragas both build some AP early and tanky late game sounds alot like a fighter. Rumble is defined as a fighter. And yes my MR shred item maybe be a little strong but you know what this was to got people to see and talk about a big problem of Riots exclusion of a class.

Shablagoo1 votes

No literally Ekko is an assassin, riven is in the same category as an assassin but is different. I am not making this up or pulling out my ass this is how riot intended them to be played. https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses , https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses . This is how they where design to be played rumble is a battle mage which is the closest thing to this ap fighter along with ap fighters.

No but it would be simply ridiculous, mages would be able to stack the mr shred in seconds for one, second mr is so low in the game for base stats and increases only by .8 or something per lvl for some people. Its insanely low, along with void mages will always be hitting true dmg on all champions. I understand that ad fighters have true dmg too, but really I know all mages would be using this item and it would break the game. We already have things like duskblade and stromrazor to balance why break the game even more?

Frosted Tips1 votes

Riven is under under skirmisher not assassin. And AP fighters which range from Skirmishers to Divers to Unique Style to Battle Mages are just thrown into these categories because Riot didn't care to actually look into what is problematic with this champions. They all struggle from having to build items they don't want to.

No but it would be simply ridiculous, mages would be able to stack the mr shred in seconds for one

Yes that is why it is a very low AP item. Also most mages could only get 3 stacks from their rotation. Many of them only have 3 dmaging abilities including their ults. Also the debuff duration could be reduced so that the person had to be more consistently damage making it less effective on mages.

second mr is so low in the game for base stats and increases only by .8 or something per lvl for some people. Its insanely low, along with void mages will always be hitting true dmg on all champions

Yes MR is low compared to armor but people can still get alot of it. The thing is why does this have to be the case. These items would obviously only be added during a preseason and they could even change base MR and or add like one more MR item of something.

We already have things like duskblade and stromrazor to balance why break the game even more?

Why does it matter if other things that are unhealthy in the game. They are separate things and their issues would never overlap. Let me give an example, let's say Ahri has a 60% winrate and a 20% playrate and is for sure overtuned, and then Garen has a 57% winrate and a 25% playrate and again is obviously overtuned. Should we just forget about Garen because Ahri is the bigger problem?

Shablagoo1 votes

I never said she was an assassin if you read it, she is a subclass of slayer which is skirmisher you can look back at it if you want. Bro you just lump anything that's melee and ap and called them ap fighters? How is that any less lazy?

Anything Mr shred is not a good idea, with the current magic pen plus this item and void staff would be op on anything ap, it would be used on almost everyone. And I know what your going to say hey, ad has it, but it doesnt work like that one, no ad fighters use black clever and lords. Assassins do, but lethality not only scales, but so does armor at least equally in value. Mr doesnt Vel'koz at max level has 38.5 mritem 3102 banshee is the only good mr item for mages. Most mages can be doing near true dmg with just item 3020 item 3165 and with void they do. Now add banshee and it goes as low as 26.1 mr left. And you want to add another mr shred item? What would the value of the 5 I'm assuming, which is 15% for the 3 stacks. That is pretty massive man

I mean I guess but people are complaining about the dmg already and you want to add more? Not a good idea

It matters and man your example doesnt really even grasp the situation. The problem would be that they are adding more problems into the game, so for your example they wouldnt forget either, but instead add another problem champion by buffing them lets say Talon, making him 54% winrate with a 20% playrate. Now you have one more balance problem added into the equation. Thats the proper assessment of the situation.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Bro you just lump anything that's melee and ap and called them ap fighters? How is that any less lazy?

All the champions I said defer from battle mages because they have a more consistent form of dps and are less burst reliant. Battle mages usually have high burst still and scale super well into late game. While my Category of AP fighter doesn't usually scale super well but they have much better early games.

banshee is the only good mr item for mages. Most mages can be doing near true dmg

Isn't that the same thing as saying GA is the only good armor item for AD assassins and marksmen? That's fine mages shouldn't be able to build a ton of MR.

Like there is already a problem. These items not existing push the champions I pointed out into unbalanced directions. They are balanced around being in these categories they do not fit in properly so they may only be good in that category but then they can abuse their fighter style with it causing imbalance. They need a category that fits their playstyles and kits and items for them to use instead of just abusing g mage items when they get overtuned so they are viable at playing their off role.

Shablagoo1 votes

Rumble is a battle mage lol, Galio and Gragas are tanks, nid scales great along with ekko. But the thing you are describing is even a assassin, ekko scales pretty good late game honestly because of his w. Again most divers are great early but fall off later, My man you not doing anything from riot but putting a different name.

I guess thats a valid point however most assassins have abilites that make it difficult to be killed by having escape skills to actually help them with there squishiness. Marksmen have a fuck buddy that shields them or keeps them alive. Most mid lanes go 1v1 in lane, then there is a Diana who can build an item early game to completely remove almost all there mr in one full rotation forcing certain mages to rush banshee's. It isnt fair.

I still dont think you get that creating another problem to solve a problem isnt even a solution or practical in anyway. I am positive the mage item rework help rumble a lot, giving him great items, liandry and morello were great for him, same with almost all the other battle mages. Again Gragas and Galio dont fit there because they arent battle mages they are tanks you should put them together. I agree for unique style being lazy, but mainly because kennen literally fits the idea of a battle mage so i dont understand why he is their. Nid is pretty much a diver I dont see her being that unique from one. I dont think putting them into another category you make up sovles much either anyway, especially when you are more problems by making them so majorly unique. An example of that is ad assassins, changing lethality broke not only ad assassin at one point but other champions, mf, jihn, and varus along with many other divers. This mr shred item I think would create just as many balancing issues.

taleofsonata1 votes

I like how Riot ways of buffing AP fighters is overbuffing Rumbles.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

I really want AP Udyr to be a thing.

La Bello1 votes

the lifeline effect for physical damage is pretty hilarious.

300 magic damage from a spell is huge because they they dont have damage until the CD comes up again effectively buying you 3~6 seconds to get out.

300 physical damage is like one and half auto's or something. a wimpy shield like that wont stop Yasuo or Jhin from crushing you with basics.

More from Gameplay

More by Frosted Tips