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Riot, what are your plans for Zyra ?

Angelofchaos16x··26 votes·2,311 views

So Zyra is a Mage, that has a ap scaling equal to Shen a tank. Let that sink in for a bit. Many things just make her not viable at all. But I want to focus on her passive and her ult. Her passive is in my list of most useless in the game. It can only be used 2 seconds after her death, so her killer can gtfo. Then it is a slow as hell skill shot and she can not move during its cast. It's like a bad version of Kogs passive. He can at least move and its aoe and it does a lot more damage ( Hers: 80 + 20x her level, Its: 100 +25x its level). The only time she can acutally use it well is in a team fight, when most of the time, you have no time to think about dodging a skill shot from a dead person. The next thing that is just wrong with her kit is her ult. So it a decent ult, IF you can even hit someone with it. It has a 2 second delay before the knock up, and the damage is so low ( About the same as Nami's ult has a slight better scaling, but Nami's has a slow and knock up). So basically you have 2 seconds to move and make her ult useless( Yes she has a snare, but even then, if you flash as soon as the snare ends, you still avoid her ult). And the knock up on her ult last 1 second at all levels. It is one the worst knock ups in the game( Braum lasts more and has a slow, Nami same, Malphite is faster and does more damage, Cho's Q has the same duration and still has a slow) and it's her ULT, supposedly the best ability in a kit. All in all, I really feel like they should add her to the rework list. I love Zyra and find her fun, but is so lackluster that I have a really hard time enjoying the games that I play with her.

34 Comments

manbearswine13 votes

Well,I disagree about her ratios,they seem fine to me,I also agree that her ult knockup was reduced for no reason,1 second is a bit too little for something which is delayed by 2 seconds(the previous 1.25 was fine,I don't know why it was changed),but anyway her main issue is:

Her weaknesses are glaring,persistent and plentiful(she rotates slowly,is very vulnerable to being picked off and is weak against anything which isn't a teamfight/dive comp(as in poke/splitpush/pickoff comps)),her strengths on the other hand are filled with holes: she's supposed to be an attrition based mage,but a lot of champions melt her plants with aoe without even trying to. she's supposed to be focused on disengage/counterintiation,but her kit isn't good at dealing with hyper mobile champions,which is often what she needs to disengage from.

Her laning phase(both as a support and a mid laner) is very unsafe,she has some very hard matchups in both of these roles(leona/karma(support) or zed/leblanc(mid)) but she herself doesn't really counter anything(and in fact is generally in a disadvantage during laning,unless the matchup is something very specific),granted she can work rather well vs some things,but not anywhere as good as her counters work against her.

To make things worse her level 1 is absolute shit,and good players can often force a big advantage from this(I'm not sure how apparent this is in the lower elos).

In conclusion(and tl;dr) her weaknesses just completely overwhelm her strengths.

It might be worth noting that as far as meta compatibility goes zyra is now the strongest she's been since her nerfs,with tanks seeing much more play both her disengage and her being an attrition based mage(after all fights are prolonged) fit much better into the meta,yet pros would still rather pick support nautilus over her(naut is mentioned as reminder that pros aren't locked on an old meta,if zyra is strong she would be picked,but she isn't.),and with the cinderhulk/sion/hecarim nerfs it's all downhill for her,and she already is completely ignored,she needs buffs,not excuses or swagtalk about how she's strong and everyone is blind.

shalexade9 votes

Support Zyra outputs (on average) 22,000 damage per game.

Support annie outputs (On average) 15,000 per game.

Mid Lissanda/Fizz/LeBlanc/Zed/Yasuo/Orianna output 22,000 per game.

Mid Zyra outputs 30,000 per game. 4th behing Kog'Maw, Karthus and Teemo

And you feel that Zyra needs a buff to her damages?

YOU BEEN WARNED1 votes

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hex the FenFen6 votes

I agree with everything but the ult issue. I play her mid a lot and, in fact, i main her. I never have problems nuking someone down to nothing or just low enough for my plants to kill. I don't see any reason why you are not doing any damage. Her passive does need to be fixed though. It is the least satisfying thing about her. It is pathetic and quite frankly disappointing.

qetzel6 votes

I disagree with the AP ratio comment. Her ratios are not terrible given that her plants have 20% per attack.

Furthermore, Zyra's ultimate isn't just about the damage and the knock up. It is about creating an area in which the opponent cannot step. IT is brilliant for zoning and disengaging.

I would like the passive to be changed... But balance-wise I think she is fine.

DanofDemacia1 votes

{quoted}

I disagree with the AP ratio comment. Her ratios are not terrible given that her plants have 20% per attack.

Furthermore, Zyra's ultimate isn't just about the damage and the knock up. It is about creating an area in which the opponent cannot step. IT is brilliant for zoning and disengaging.

I would like the passive to be changed... But balance-wise I think she is fine.

Her ult is terrible theirs even delay on the damage.

FantasySniper3 votes

You obviously don't know Zyra.

DanofDemacia3 votes

{quoted}

You obviously don't know Zyra.

I obviously do countless times i ult someone and they get away with no damage taken from my ult

Yorukin5 votes

Either you're not correctly watching their health bars, or you're full of salt and lies. Possibly both, seeing as the is the League boards. Zyra's ult does plenty of damage to anyone standing within the general vicinity of the thorns, even if they enter the field while it's fully stretched-out. Don't believe me, place one under a Zhonya's. Soraka's E works the same way.

The knockup is delayed, but that part doesn't actually do any damage.

DanofDemacia1 votes

{quoted}

Either you're not correctly watching their health bars, or you're full of salt and lies. Possibly both, seeing as the is the League boards. Zyra's ult does plenty of damage to anyone standing within the general vicinity of the thorns, even if they enter the field while it's fully stretched-out. Don't believe me, place one under a Zhonya's. Soraka's E works the same way.

The knockup is delayed, but that part doesn't actually do any damage.

Your half retarded or full who am i to judge.

Yorukin5 votes

Perhaps my earlier comment was a bit harsh, and I sincerely apologize if I insulted you. However, responding to anything with insults and toxicity--especially without any real supporting ideas or arguments--is not the way things should be done. I don't care if you have the anonymity of the internet to protect you, you should still treat others the way you want to be treated. You may not always get that treatment in return, but you can at least prove that not everyone in this community is a toxic a-hole.

Unless, of course, you WANT to be treated terribly by everyone you meet, but I seriously hope that's not the case.

DanofDemacia1 votes

{quoted}

Perhaps my earlier comment was a bit harsh, and I sincerely apologize if I insulted you. However, responding to anything with insults and toxicity--especially without any real supporting ideas or arguments--is not the way things should be done. I don't care if you have the anonymity of the internet to protect you, you should still treat others the way you want to be treated. You may not always get that treatment in return, but you can at least prove that not everyone in this community is a toxic a-hole.

Unless, of course, you WANT to be treated terribly by everyone you meet, but I seriously hope that's not the case.

Perhaps my earlier comment was a bit harsh, and I sincerely apologize if I insulted you. /(0_0)/

iamleburk1 votes

doesn't the damage spread out from the center? Im pretty sure I've seen people get out without damage by the edge of the ult, but maybe thats just the animation screwing me up

Yorukin6 votes

Seeing as Zyra is one of my go-to midlaners (when I'm not goofing off in bots, anyway), I feel obliged to defend her.

First off, comparing the AP scalings of a mage to that of a tank may seem fair for this kind of post, but keep in mind that Zyra's basic abilities are relatively low-cost (I can generally get by with just a pair of Doran's Rings through laning), and have good AoE for their relatively low cooldowns. On top of this, her plants have a 20% ratio, and in duels and laning, they're liable to get at least two attacks off before the opponent either kills them or gets out of their range. Shen, by contrast, has a more single-target approach to his skills, a VERY expensive E, and most importantly, is not expected to build very much AP--as a tank who dives headfirst into the enemy team and works best against marksmen and fighters, he generally prefers to stack durability above all else.

Secondly, Zyra's ultimate is a lot more powerful than it looks on paper. Yes, the damage is a little lackluster compared to other mage ults, but where Stranglethorns shines is its teamfight power. The delay before the knockup may be huge, but so is the AoE. Dropping it down at the start of a teamfight (preferably on top of a pair of plants for the enraged bonus) pretty much guarantees the fight will swing in your favor, especially when used alongside other disruptive ultimates like Braum Glacial Fissure, Rumble The Equalizer, or Galio Idol of Durand. It also has uses outside of teamfights; dropping it under someone using Zhonya's active (or enemies hit by Bard Tempered Fate) pretty much guarantees that they'll suffer the damage and knockup, with is a full second+ for you and your plants and allies to attack them.

As for your other knockup comparisons, while a lot of them may pack slows or better damage, Zyra's has by FAR the biggest AoE of the lot, and an enraged Vine Lasher (E plant) can keep an opponent relatively still afterwards. Don't judge an ability by what it alone brings to the table; often something that looks weak on paper works best when brought up next to the rest of the kit. Just ask the new Ryze (that E splash damage, holy crap).

I don't disagree with the passive complaint, though; Rise of the Thorns doesn't do much if you're playing well, and the damage isn't really worth it. I've only ever gotten two kills with the thing, and mostly those were on distracted opponents. She could stand a new one, but I'm not sure what would work well in her kit without being too powerful, while still fitting both her mage and support roles.

Salidfingers4 votes

I play zyra a lot.

Something tells me you don't understand her kit.

Her kit isn't about spamming abilities it is about her "SEEDS" and he ult amplifies them. Her ult does initial damage that can take a ADC below 50% alone with out anything else and then after knocking them up so your seedlings can continue to do damage to finish her off.

She is fine and i have killed so many players with zyra ult. Yes sometimes its annoying someone escapes, but after a while you can get a lot of runners after a fight or middle of a fight.

Major Mustard3 votes

I agree her passive should be fixed, but Zara scales just fine. She deals relevant dmg as support and can easily burst down squishies in mid. Her plants zone and give her some extra dps. Buffing her would be a mistake that will put her in a worse position later.

Cansema2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Major Mustard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4iGEleBo,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-04-16T20:46:43.875+0000)

I agree her passive should be fixed, but Zara scales just fine. She deals relevant dmg as support and can easily burst down squishies in mid. Her plants zone and give her some extra dps. Buffing her would be a mistake that will put her in a worse position later.

she was suppose to be a mid laner. they gave her the olaf and it put her in support.. lucky it didnt kill her.

Aspynn3 votes

The only thing that needs to be changed about zyra is her passive. Her ult and scalings are fine.

Krevik3 votes

Why do people keep asking for Zyra buffs? She has a 52%+ winrate in both mid and support! Please don't mess with my Zyra, she's beautiful exactly as she is...

MrBuffington2 votes

I recall a while back some Reds wanting to do something else with her passive, but there's a long line as far as reworks go, so unfortunately it'll probably be a while before we see something. Of course her change would be smaller in scope than say, Poppy or Yorick, so they might be able to squeeze her in somewhere, like they're doing with Ashe (who's closest to being done after Ryze)

Space Bum2 votes

When I play Zyra it is really odd if I don't get top damage as mid or sup. I don't like her passive but she is fine in every other aspect.

Lord Malice2 votes

As a Zyra main I feel she will be effective in all roles with two simple changes to her.

1: Increase the missile speed of her root, it can only be used offensively if you use it in conjunction with Flash. As it stands right now it can only be reliably landed defensively (ie. they are advancing on you)or if you're hiding in a bush with no ward.

2: Increase the missile speed and width and damage of her Passive, the delay on her shot provides more than enough counter play. Why they ever nerfed this I have no idea.

I think her ult and her ratios are perfect, anything added to these would make her too strong. Zyra has very obvious weaknesses, she is one of the slowest champs in the game and she has zero mobility, her plants also have a lot of counter play and without them up her damage and utility is quite weak. Therefore the two above buffs would not make her OP but just make her competitive again.

thinking man2 votes

{quoted}

So Zyra is a Mage, that has a ap scaling equal to Shen a tank.

That's because Shen can't build full AP so the little AP he gets counts for more while Zyra has both extremely high DPS from the plants overall and also can very easily apply this damage so that she doesn't need retarded loads of damage.

Old Man Teeto2 votes

So Zyra is a Mage, that has a ap scaling equal to Shen a tank. Let that sink in for a bit.

Shen technically has higher, but almost half of his scaling is on his ultimate. Zyra has high consistent from her plants and strong anti-dive utility.

Many things just make her not viable at all. But I want to focus on her passive and her ult. Her passive is in my list of most useless in the game. It can only be used 2 seconds after her death, so her killer can gtfo. Then it is a slow as hell skill shot and she can not move during its cast. It's like a bad version of Kogs passive. He can at least move and its aoe and it does a lot more damage ( Hers: 80 + 20x her level, Its: 100 +25x its level). The only time she can acutally use it well is in a team fight, when most of the time, you have no time to think about dodging a skill shot from a dead person.

Her passive makes focusing her first in bot lane trades dangerous. Despite what some people think, DYING DOES HAPPEN. Those two seconds they're running away to "escape", you're ADC can be punishing them. Only insanely one sided fights in bot lane have her passive being worthless.

The next thing that is just wrong with her kit is her ult. So it a decent ult, IF you can even hit someone with it. It has a 2 second delay before the knock up, and the damage is so low ( About the same as Nami's ult has a slight better scaling, but Nami's has a slow and knock up). So basically you have 2 seconds to move and make her ult useless( Yes she has a snare, but even then, if you flash as soon as the snare ends, you still avoid her ult). And the knock up on her ult last 1 second at all levels. It is one the worst knock ups in the game( Braum lasts more and has a slow, Nami same, Malphite is faster and does more damage, Cho's Q has the same duration and still has a slow) and it's her ULT, supposedly the best ability in a kit.

Nami doesn't output the raw damage Zyra does in fights, Malphite is a tank who requires being next to people to function, Braums is a thin skill shot, Cho's Q is 1/3 the size. You additionally forgot that if you double spawn Q plants onto her ultimate, they're damage is insanely buffed for more than likely most of the team fight (barring fighting Karthus/Fiddle Ult/persistent damage AoE ultimate that hits plants

All in all, I really feel like they should add her to the rework list. I love Zyra and find her fun, but is so lackluster that I have a really hard time enjoying the games that I play with her.

Zyra's kit is fine. She isn't seeing play because the Dive compositions being played are bruiser/tanks rather than less durable champions. Additionally, her early game vision dominance from seeds is less needed in the new season of level 1 Trinkets. If anything the major changes Zyra needs is a slight decrease on her R's CD and possibly being able to carry a third seed in her W by mid-game. (Perhaps tied to levels her level 11?) This lets her more reliably have her ultimate for team fights to be used as a split/disengage or AoE wombo button and with three seeds she can put out more damage in full on team fights, and vision check easier in between them.

ßongs2 votes

Zyra is fine the way she is

Titanium702 votes

Well Zyra isnt THAT bad - but yeah Riot wasnt able to deal with her. Released as broken OP APC she ended up, first as Support and than forgotten. (I cried when Zyra was part of the "Support-Bundle" Riot released some time ago.)

I just want Zyra to back in her Mid-Lane just lower her Base-Stats and give her high AP Ratios (maybe even let the damn snare scale on AP)! Because she was a really fun to play laner with amazing teamfightpower if played well. Seriously 5 man E-W-W-Q-R could (an actually can) win a Fight 1v5! xD

They just have to be carefull about what they´re doing because AP-Zyra is close to viable atm. ^^(and Urf Zyra was amazing x'D)

Reikken1 votes

AP scaling equal to Shen? please. W has an AP ratio of up to 1.6. 2.4 with ult

Felvyne1 votes

Her ult is fine. It's intended as a counter-engage ult, and in a offensive way you can catch someone in your vines and, with roots and slows, hit them really hard.

Nothing to say about the passive, I think u are right.

Krys Star1 votes

Her ult needs ap scaling, much like they gave Lux's. Like maybe 15% of her ap. How fun would it be if her live plants also shot a similar thorn ( without doing true damage ) in a straight line, at the same direction of Zyra's passive? If that makes sense. That'd be fun! :)

Velasan1 votes

I love zyra as a champion. She really needs some number tweaking more than a full rework.

She doesn't strike me as a full on support and prefer to play her mid.

Saianna1 votes

Tbh on relase i though her kit will have some thornmail thingy.. She was refered as "thorn lady"..

And yeah her passive is so much worse than Kogs..

Earl Eulrich1 votes

If they are in their right minds they plan to nerf her if she ever gets popular again.

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

I have to generally disagree with you about zyra, I have a lot of fun playing her and often do more damage than one of the carries when I play her. You seem to forget that most of her damage comes from her plants. With just sorc shoes and liandry's, you do tons of damage especially since you are rarely focused. If you are focused well at least you get your true damage passive off. I agree that the two second delay is clunky and annoying. Her passive is pretty useless. But her ult is very nice in team fights and power of her plants and her root in lane and late game are very high.

1999 01 171 votes

zyra is very balanced. and your point about ap ratios is meaningless, amumu has massive ap ratios.

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