The only thing that I ask concerning the Assassin Rework

Angelofchaos16x·Jun 25, 2016·226 votes·9,085 views

Is to fully delete these "Tank Assassin" builds. No more tank Fizz , or Tank Ekko , or anything else of the sort. A assassin is a assassin and a tank is a tank , you cannot be both.

151 Comments

PhDs NutsJun 25, 201678 votes

It's a problem with Riot's obsession with base damage and %hp damage. They need to knock that $%!@ off ASAP.

XeroKimoJun 25, 201615 votes

Not that I'm against the removal of %hp dmg + base dmg, but I kind of see that the %hp dmg, which has been so far limited to missing hp for assassins, is a way to keep the dmg of everything else in an assassin's kit down, and to me it kind of fits the theme in my eyes for an assassin, someone that is stronger against weakened targets, be it talon's way of dealing more dmg to weakened targets (%increase dmg to cc'd targets) or ekko/fizz's way to deal more dmg to weakened targets (%missing hp dmg)

Sozan5Jun 25, 201626 votes

I'd rather have them have increased damage based on %missing health rather than %missing health damage. The difference between the two is quite big after all.

XeroKimoJun 25, 20161 votes

I wouldn't mind that either, but to me, it's kind of a problem of the user will never know how much dmg they'll do with a skill like that, though obviously you can just play the champion over and over until you get used to how much dmg that skill will do. I mean I still can't play post 6.9 veigar properly cause I don't play him often enough to know how much dmg my ult would do against a target, so I'm pretty reserved with it

Sozan5Jun 26, 20165 votes

Uh, just like you don't know how much any of your ability will do, unless it's true damage.

It all boils down to getting used to your champion.

RevaliJun 26, 20164 votes

I feel like everyone forgets ekko's can only trigger when you're below 30% of your hp.

AbyssphereJun 26, 20167 votes

That doesn't change his point. Yes, Ekko's W passive only triggering at low HP values means it kicks in only on weakened targets, but the fact that it's %HP means that against weaker targets he gets a LOT of damage he doesn't have to build for when they are low. If his W passive was a base damage amplified by how low the target was (e.g. "this damage is increased by 1% for every 1% missing HP"), he'd still have an execute passive that didn't scale off of his opponents.

JESUSSAYSNOJun 25, 201631 votes

It's not assassins that are the problem, it's the overall gamestate. Keystone masteries and runes are what's enabled these tank assassins. The champions are fine, but the amount of raw stats that are obtained out of the game let these characters do dps comparable to an assassin with the build of a full tank.

Stat bloat is real and riot needs to fix it.

Voluug13Jun 25, 201617 votes

Well, Tank Fizz was a problem too before S6, so clearly the problem some of assassins having sustained, cd-less and resourceless AA steroids and hp% damage is something that adds to the problem.

JESUSSAYSNOJun 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well, Tank Fizz was a problem too before S6, so clearly the problem some of assassins having sustained, cd-less and resourceless AA steroids and hp% damage is something that adds to the problem.

Fizz WAS an exception to the rule, and it was a suboptimal build compared to either bruiser or full ap build. Now he's essentially the strongest of the tank assassins.

Voluug13Jun 26, 20167 votes

It wasnt suboptimal at all.

In fact, it became so strong Riot had to nerf things of Fizz's kit specifically to nerf Top Bruisetank Fizz.

PopppyseedJun 26, 20161 votes

Well it wasn't a nerf, it was a revert to his W dmg becoming DoT again

SpongebobIsLifeJun 26, 20169 votes

It was always a dot. The active used to deal a percentage of the targets missing health per hit, which made building tri force and bork very popular, sonce he didn't need ap to deal 4 to 8 percent of a targets health per hit. So when they switched the active to doing a flat amount of damage, it came to the point where you had to build ap to do damage. So yes, it was a hard nerf to bruiser fizz. ~~~~

OtakuBurritoJun 26, 20164 votes

{quoted}

It's not assassins that are the problem, it's the overall gamestate. Keystone masteries and runes are what's enabled these tank assassins. The champions are fine, but the amount of raw stats that are obtained out of the game let these characters do dps comparable to an assassin with the build of a full tank.

Stat bloat is real and riot needs to fix it.

Honestly we should just get rid of them and refund everyone their IP (Sorry people who bought them on sale someone has to lose). Riot loses literally nothing, sales for more character tokens go up, people will spam them harder, people will probably get my chests since Runes/Rune Pages are finito and people no longer have to worry about buying them.

Honestly the game needs to be rebalanced to the point we can just queue up, play a champion, and have everything be a skill match up with the obvious exception being...

Assassins kill Squishies but have high CDs

Tanks take damage and have good CC but no real scaling power

Mages burst but are squishy as hell with moderate to high CDs

Supports have better damage ratios/CC abilities with moderate cool downs

ADCs have better DPS/healthier items to kill tanks in an extended engage but are also squishy

Bruisers have moderate tank stats as well as damage but don't shine anywhere making them a jack of all trades and to the point where they fall flat if they try to build pure tank or pure bruiser

Or something along those lines. Like seriously full tank LeBlanc that has 2 built in dashes, CC, and can 1 shot anyone and is hard to catch is just silly.

Ben Karthus MDJun 25, 201622 votes

But what if an assassin was born as an assassin but has the mind of a tank?

ƒoesJun 25, 201616 votes

Would be a cool concept idea, but probably incredibly unhealthy for the state of the game.

Velzard of KozJun 26, 20166 votes

But mah self-indentification rights! #triggered

Sonic1013Jun 26, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ben Karthus MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d6NEEZ1A,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-06-25T20:15:39.691+0000)

But what if an assassin was born as an assassin but has the mind of a tank?

Why was this comment down-voted, its hilarious :D

Theiki KayleJun 26, 201614 votes

We have the opposite, a tank (ACTUAL TANK that was made to BE a TANK) with the mind of an assassin.

Shen

PÿröJun 26, 20162 votes

xD right?

Theiki KayleJun 26, 201613 votes

Shen : Ooh, I'm a stealthy ninja, I'm gonna smash into people and teleport into my allies giving them a giant purple shield, all while screaming.

Kennen : I'm a ninja too, but I can electrocute people and just go full Pikachu and create an electricity field around me destroying everyone foolish enough to meet me in close combat, all while screaming.

Akali : I'm a ninja as well, but my only stealthy thing is a smoke cloud, since I kill people by throwing my weapon at them and then jumping on them three times in a row, all while screaming.

Zed : See, this is why I left the Kinkou.

Remlap1223Jun 25, 201620 votes

This isn't an issue.

At least that's what I told myself until I had the Miss Fortune of facing the stage V cancer known as "tank Yasuo." Now I die inside every time an Akali builds sunfire cape.

Blue Moon WolfJun 25, 20164 votes

Now I die inside every time an Akali builds sunfire cape.

wait... doesn't that practically render her invisibility useless?

KarbuncleJun 25, 20163 votes

it doesn't.... be even then what does she need to be invisible for if she's in no danger of dying quickly anyway

deadlychuckJun 26, 201612 votes

actually it doesn't, there use to be a twitch/eve build where you could go 6 capes (when they stacked) and just melt people from what seemed to be thin air

MarshbouyJun 25, 201613 votes

I agree with this so much.

Electric BuyersJun 25, 201613 votes

I agree, anything that has assassin in it's role, should be squishy as fuck and need to plan ahead and use their ABILITIES to avoid danger!! Ya know, like a real assassin does.

Alistair34Jun 26, 20167 votes

http://vomzi.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/preach-gif-553.gif

Jesus Is My KingJun 25, 20166 votes

i agree! jesus, a tank fizz that deals more damage than an adc? common. that needs to be discussed. this tank meta is annoying af,

MuyAstutoJun 26, 20165 votes

they should be ACTUAL high-risk champions, not "yeah you win lane for sure" champions

Lady HammerlockJun 25, 20163 votes

If this happens,i might be able to have true fun in league again

Akali is SO HOTJun 25, 20163 votes

It's more of Keystones and Tank itemization being retarded atm. Having %health damage and utility also helps like Fizz and Ekko

Twitch ChatJun 26, 20163 votes

It's more the potential sticking power of assassins like fizz and ekko. The idea was that their skills would be used to weave in and out of fights but they're just as effective if not more effective when used to stay on a target indefinitely.

LuggJun 26, 20163 votes

Totally agree. You cannot have a healthy champion that is tanky and does lots of damage. The Juggernauts fall into this category as well. Otherwise there is no risk, but huge reward.

Meep ManJun 26, 20164 votes

The difference between Juggs and Assassins is that Juggs have no way in or out of combat, they just walk. Asses have tons of mobility options for getting in and out and, if they build tanky, they are nearly unkillable.

Great OzymandiusJun 26, 20163 votes

Juggernauts are not as all problematic. Their high damage and tankiness is gated by their low mobility. If you have ever played Nasus you know that he is a mid-game champion precisely because he becomes useless in late-game teamfights (unless the enemy team composition is terrible (no cc) or your team has tons of skills to give nasus mobility (sivir ult, karma).

These juggernauts are only a problem for very low elo where people keep trying to 1v1 nasus late game and never group to push objectives.

The Yetii RiderJun 26, 20162 votes

Problem is, tanks need damage. So their items deal damage. Nothing that Riot does will change that. The reason assassins function well with tank items is that they have mobility and other tools to simply avoid damage in their kits, and then you add on tankiness and damage from the tank items and you're good.

StaliniumJun 26, 20165 votes

So they should have the living snot nerfed from their base damages, but have good scaling? Sounds like a solution to me...

billxxJun 26, 20162 votes

But that also is terrible for early game assassins.

LankPantsJun 26, 20165 votes

Should there actually be such a thing as early game assassins?

They're a class that inherently snowballs as it stands, giving them a strong early game has only ever proved to make them absolutely overwhelming.

The Yetii RiderJun 26, 20166 votes

{quoted}

So they should have the living snot nerfed from their base damages, but have good scaling? Sounds like a solution to me...

Can't do that. Higher scalings have never been a part of assassin's kits because it means if you get ahead you never come down. (Essentially it would make Mejai's Soulstealer an insta-buy on assassins and the extra MS and AP with good scaling would ensure you were at 25 stacks all game).

And high bases is necessary to give assassins in the early game the edge so they can get kills in otherwise even trades. That's balanced by the large majority of them having terrible CS power.

RivetAceJun 26, 20167 votes

Solution - High base damage in early skill ranks, high scaling in late skill ranks. example skill - 100/115/130/145/160 (+10/30/50/70/90% scaling) Or even better, have one skill that scales like this^ and one skill that high high base damage but low scaling, so if you're ahead you choose the high scaling and if you're behind you choose the high base damage.

Hire me rito.

The Yetii RiderJun 26, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=u wot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d6NEEZ1A,comment-id=000e000000010000,timestamp=2016-06-26T02:31:41.523+0000)

Solution - High base damage in early skill ranks, high scaling in late skill ranks. example skill - 100/115/130/145/160 (+10/30/50/70/90% scaling) Or even better, have one skill that scales like this^ and one skill that high high base damage but low scaling, so if you're ahead you choose the high scaling and if you're behind you choose the high base damage.

Hire me rito.

Except high base damage leads to snowballing which leads to higher XP, so you'll hit level 9 sooner and have your max scaling to rule mid game.

RivetAceJun 26, 20164 votes

Isn't that the idea behind getting a lead?

The Yetii RiderJun 26, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=u wot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d6NEEZ1A,comment-id=000e00000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-26T04:06:53.124+0000)

Isn't that the idea behind getting a lead?

On other champions, maybe. On a class that deletes enemies in 0.3-0.7 seconds? No. No, it's a bad thing.

Lithium RosaJun 26, 20162 votes

Don't forget about that "utility assassin" bullshit

Jeanne fan clubJun 26, 20161 votes

I think another problem is that there aren't enough niche champions. Champion concepts and abilities tend to blend into each other leaving it up to whose numbers are higher, or which champion is overall better. This leads to a very small amount of champs being played over and over again because they are the best in their class. Basically I don't think that the champs right now have enough unique traits to make them more desirable over the champ who is better than them.

TBH, assassins right now all kind of just blend together. Sure there are some niche assassins like Talon where he has way more aoe than other champions, or kassadin who is strong against ap, but other than that it really just seems to be pick the best assassin. Why pick katarina over leblanc when leblanc is much more reliable and has more versatility?

I think that this preseason Riot should focus on making every champion fulfill a unique niche so that the game ends up more like dota, where champions are picked to fulfill a certain role because of a certain circumstance. The thing with this game is that every champion is just way too versitile, and it results in people picking the same champion over and over again because they are very good with them. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it results in the same champions being picked over and over again.

Id like Riot to make the differences between champions much more unique. They have been doing an amazing job with the recent champions, and even some of the reworks as well, especially with the adc's. lucian might need a little bit of reworking though, he fulfills a lot of roles and outlcasses other champs like kallista and tristana because of his balance between mobility, damage, turret taking ability and aoe (his ult). A balance between several aspects isn't a bad thing in itself, but he shouldn't be well rounded to the point where he outclasses them in their own niche.

DesolationKaizerJun 26, 20162 votes

I believe they're trying to do that currently, but it's something that takes time. Honestly, it's kind of why I had more problem with champion releases in s1-s2. A lot of them felt the same, particularly bruiser releases from 2011-2012. I'd love if they did give a majority of champions their own unique niche. The other problem currently is also the ban and pick phase of league. If it had something more like Dota's, you'd see a lot more champions picked.