Whenever mages build the same 4-6 items every game for multiple seasons, it's okay.
Also for somebody looking to prove me wrong, I'd like you to tell me how often a mage won't get Deathcap/Void Staff/Zhonya's. The only time you wouldn't get a Zhonya's is if you were getting an Abyssal instead to deal with something stupid like Veigar, and that's still incredibly niche.
Drunk Rummate7 voteszhonyas isnt core on a fair amount of AP champs. its mostly only a necessity on AP assassins and when playing against assassins. Assassins are pretty popular right now which is probably why you see a lot of zhonyas being built.
i like to build rylais and/or DFG instead of zhonyas when i can afford it.
its not that tanks were building the same item every game, its that the item they were building was too good. notice how they nerfed athenes into the dirt? because it was too good. people even built it against all AD comps.
Aurelius Maximus2 votesi usually don't get void bc most mr items suck
Angry Monster7 votesTo bad void staff is efficient even against people with no extra MR.
Drunk Rummate1 votesTo bad void staff is efficient even against people with no extra MR.
thats the problem with %pen in general. i think if it was only efficient vs people who had 1+ magic resist items there would be a lot more diversity in AP builds.
Onegarion3 votesSounds like less of a problem with %pen and more with how its implemented. Really they could have it work like Yasuo's ult where its only %pen on bonus MR. So any items they build will get effected, but the base values aren't. This might make way for other items and not make void staff so must have.
MrSlowDie1 votesTo bad void staff is efficient even against people with no extra MR.
lol good luck reducing 10 MR from lucian with void (abyssal is laughing at void) I am pretty sure full build with double rabaddon deals more damage to that lucian than build with void,
Drunk Rummate7 voteslol good luck reducing 10 MR from lucian with void (abyssal is laughing at void) I am pretty sure full build with double rabaddon deals more damage to that lucian than build with void,
30 MR gives about 23.1% damage reduction After void its 19.5 MR which gives about 16.3% damage reduction So a 6.8% damage reduction difference
At 18 lucian has 1914 hitpoints. 6.8% reduction from that health pool is about 130 damage.
The 50 AP between void staff and a second 120 AP item will give about 25-30 damage per spell cast depending on the champion, then reduced by magic resist. So it's debatable at that point, but under the assumption that lucian eventually builds an MR item for his 6th slot the void becomes obviously better.
MrSlowDie1 votes30 MR gives about 23.1% damage reduction After void its 19.5 MR which gives about 16.3% damage reduction So a 6.8% damage reduction difference
At 18 lucian has 1914 hitpoints. 6.8% reduction from that health pool is about 130 damage.
The 50 AP between void staff and a second 120 AP item will give about 25-30 damage per spell cast depending on the champion, then reduced by magic resist. So it's debatable at that point, but under the assumption that lucian eventually builds an MR item for his 6th slot the void becomes obviously better.
double rabaddon equal to 240x1.3 = 312 while rabaddon and void 190x1.3 = 247
let's use orianna Q with 0.5 AP ratio Double rabaddon (180+312x0.5)x100/130 = 258,46 Rabaddon void (180+247x0.5)x100/120 = 252,9
yeah slight difference but that's with double rabaddon, a troll build. how about we do math about Rabaddon+zhonya+sorcerer+morello+GA+void vs Rabaddon+zhonya+sorcerer+morello+GA+DFG or +lich bane? to a lucian with GA.
DJ Siamak1 votesdouble rabaddon equal to 240x1.3 = 312 while rabaddon and void 190x1.3 = 247
let's use orianna Q with 0.5 AP ratio Double rabaddon (180+312x0.5)x100/130 = 258,46 Rabaddon void (180+247x0.5)x100/120 = 252,9
yeah slight difference but that's with double rabaddon, a troll build. how about we do math about Rabaddon+zhonya+sorcerer+morello+GA+void vs Rabaddon+zhonya+sorcerer+morello+GA+DFG or +lich bane? to a lucian with GA.
You won't touch anything that builds magic resist.
Drunk Rummate1 votesyeah slight difference but that's with double rabaddon, a troll build. how about we do math about Rabaddon+zhonya+sorcerer+morello+GA+void vs Rabaddon+zhonya+sorcerer+morello+GA+DFG or +lich bane? to a lucian with GA.
Hey you actually did the math right, I'm impressed.
Unfortunately it gets a lot different if you give Lucian GA. Once he has the null then void starts to win out. Make it a negatron and the difference grows. Honestly I wish that weren't the case, but that's just how the numbers work out and it's why void is a must buy on every ap champion.
Sammystorm1 votesI still say liandries is much better unless you want to be a tank buster. Also lucian's health pool is so small that unless you are hitting tanky targets I don't think you particularly need void staff.
WingsofGulgazor1 votesvoid is also a cheap item compared to many other items.
manbearswine2 votesdouble rabaddon equal to 240x1.3 = 312 while rabaddon and void 190x1.3 = 247
let's use orianna Q with 0.5 AP ratio Double rabaddon (180+312x0.5)x100/130 = 258,46 Rabaddon void (180+247x0.5)x100/120 = 252,9
yeah slight difference but that's with double rabaddon, a troll build. how about we do math about Rabaddon+zhonya+sorcerer+morello+GA+void vs Rabaddon+zhonya+sorcerer+morello+GA+DFG or +lich bane? to a lucian with GA.
why would anyone build a double rabadon?
the whole point in that item is the passive,it's barely even cost efficient(in fact,cost inefficient as two needlessly large rods cost less,but everyone just has to go by some bizzare stat in the wikia) without the passive.
BakugoBestBoy1 votesVoid staff is more cost efficient than any other AP item.... who are you people...
Raba+Zhonya+Raba = 468 AP
Raba+Zhonya+Abys = 403 AP 20MPEN
Raba+Zhonya+Void = 403 AP 35%MPEN
Random Ability Does 200Base+(1.0AP)
Lucian Has built 0 MR, ran flat MR blues and is Level 18, he has 42 MR.
Lucian takes 30% reduced Magic Damage from build 1 resulting in 468 damage
Lucian takes 18% reduced Magic Damage from build 2 resulting in 494 damage
Lucian takes 22% reduced Magic Damage from build 3 resulting in 470 damage
Build 3 does more than build 1 and then surpasses build 2 as soon as Lucian wakes up from his coma and builds even a null mantle.
Leaf of the lake1 voteslol good luck reducing 10 MR from lucian with void (abyssal is laughing at void) I am pretty sure full build with double rabaddon deals more damage to that lucian than build with void,
If an ADC takes flat MR glyphs, they'll have 43 MR. In this case, VS cuts through 15 MR, the same as sorc shoes and haunting guise. It only gets more efficient the more MR they have from there.
Sammystorm1 votesnot as good as liandries. Liandries is much better against low mr targets.
The real item you should complain about other then void staff is sorc boots. So against a lucian with no mr they lose 15 mr straight off the bat and are screwed because of a tier 2 boot. A lucian with a negatron cloak has 75 mr and is likely the only mr item a lucian would build. After sorc boots and liandries lucian would have 45 mr. After sorc boots and void lucian would have 30 mr. However liandries gives the burn which adds to dps.
Angry Monster1 votesThe burn is not that big of an issue.
Most APC will delete squishy champs without the burn. You are also forgetting the 6% from masteries also though.
Sammystorm1 votesThe 6% from masteries makes flat pen better and void staff worse.
Angry Monster1 votesno it doesnt
MrSlowDie2 votesrabaddon and zhonya just too cost efficient while void staff.. err.. rylai, RoA, liandry, and athene are more popular than void. Yet with their popularity that 4 items aren't a must. Sometimes mages build DFG, or seraph, or morello, or lich bane, or abyssal, or anything.
Cindikle2 votesThere is honestly a difference. AP's have options. Good options. But in most cases the items that provide the most damage(if your building damage) will always include those 3 because of the AP you get. An AP can still get Abyssal if they need the MR. Hourglass isn't really a requirement. It's strong vs assassins and burst combo's. Whenever assassins become popular/strong, It does too. The items you listed are just the most optimal.
What options do tank have? Sunfire is OK. But it had it's damage nerfed early game. When it was used to waveclear while providing tanky stacks. It no longer does that very well so it's not built as often.
And that's about it. There is no reason not to pick up Randuins. There is no reason not to pick up BV outside of some rare cases on champions that can make SV worth picking up. Locket is also a choice for MR, but that depends if no one else is getting it.
Tanks are complaining because they have very few options and they are quickly feeling useless.
Sammystorm1 votesThe problem is exactly that. No good verity for tanks and no niche items other then Visage. It would be nice to have more armor + health and mr + health options. I mean no one ever feels good about buying thornmail or warmogs. They provide only have the stats tanks need to be relevant.
TheKingDodo2 votesAD's pretty diverse though :P
Never fails
Sammystorm2 votes6 of the top 10 most popular items are ad. 2 are ap and 2 are trinkets.
MrSlowDie1 votesRabaddon+zhonya+sorcerer+morello+GA+void 120+120+80+70 +15 MR pen +35% MR pen +30% AP 507 AP +15 MR pen +35% MR pen
Rabaddon+zhonya+sorcerer+morello+GA+DFG 120+120+80+120 +15 MR pen +20% magic amp +15% hp damage +30% AP 572 +15 MR pen +20% magic amp +15% hp damage
Rabaddon+zhonya+sorcerer+morello+GA+LB 120+120+80+80 +50% AP damage +15 MR pen +30% AP 520 +50% AP damage +15 MR pen
vs lucian
80 MR
orianna Q 180+0,5 AP ratio
1st build (180+507x0,5)x100/(100+(0,65x80)-15) 433,5x100/137 316,42
2nd build ((180+572x0,5)x1,2))x100/165 559.2x100/165 338,91 +15% hp damage
3rd build (180+520x1.0)x100/165 700x100/165 424
Penguin Eclipse1 votesI rarely build Zhonya's anymore. Basically only if I am against a highly mobile assassin as a non-mobile mage. Or if I am against Karthus.
PBnJelly1 votesWell that's because building defenses requires more situational thinking than building damage. When building defenses you have to look at what are the main damage sources on the enemy team, as well as what champ you're playing (ex. you might build Warmogs on Mundo but not other tanks). Meanwhile, when building damage it's mostly just what champ you're playing. That isn't to say that there's a massive difference; no matter what you should always build according to situation. As an AP, sure, you'll probably get the same items, just in a different order but it's still pretty similar for tanks, just with 2 different "paths."
Likely AP items Morello's, Zhonya's, Rabadon's, Void
Likely Tank Items VS AP heavy/fed AP: Banshee's, Visage, Merc's VS AD heavy/fed AD: Randuin's, Thornmail, Tabis
LoL in general is pretty bad with this kind of thing. There's one way to do things and every other way is just not as effective,or only works well in specific situations.
Sammystorm1 votesthe only 2 ap items that have stayed consistent across meta's for large amounts of time have been athene's and Zhonya's. Deathcap comes and goes based on other items. Void staff is the oh shit they built mr I can't touch them fix.
As for tank items. Sunfire was really good for a long time. Randuins is still bought on every tank ever. Spirit Visage is more Niche after nerfs but was good for a while too. Banshee's veil was very strong for a long time as well.
I think the real winner is ad champions. Most melee bruiser buys Hydra, bork is seen almost every game, brutilizer is bought by almost every adc and before that was heavily used by bruisers. IE has consistently seen play. BT comes and goes. Shyv has consistently seen play since its release. LW is always bought. In the top 10 most popular items we see IE, then shyv, then Bork, then LW, then Dorian's blade. The rest of the top 10 is rounded out by green and red token which we can ignore and then zhonya's, death cap, and BT. I would say it is safe to assume AD items>AP items>Tank items.
So Mages have 2 items compared to tanks 1.
Yoella1 votesThe only time you wouldn't get a Zhonya's is if you were getting an Abyssal instead to deal with something stupid like Veigar, and that's still incredibly niche.
First of all, don't call my little black cat stupid. Second of all, wouldn't you WANT invulnerability against Veigar? When he lobs his combo at you you can just Zhonya and go "oops, took 0 damage lol u ded m8".
chumbler1 votesWelcome to Riot's itemization team doesn't actually give a shit.