Riven's gameplay pattern is similar to Akali's (it lacks meaningful counterplay)

DJ Siamak·8/8/2015, 12:58:09 PM·60 votes·3,611 views

Among all of her problems, to me, this is one that just absolutely blows my mind. You have a champion that presses R, gaining a massive amount of AD and range. And if done correctly, she's able to pull off her entire combo in 0.9 seconds and 100-0 anything squishy, and still probably killing anything remotely durable. There's legit no counterplay to this. None. She just presses R, flash + stuns and absolutely wrecks you. People talk about Akali's biggest flaw as a design is there's no gameplay, which is true. You either out-tank her and kill her or you manage to burst her, if you don't accomplish either then you die. It's really no different with Riven except against Akali you can cast spells. Riven can cancel both your spells AND auto attacks so even if you're something with access to durability (Nasus/Ren ult, Jax ult, etc) you don't even get an opportunity to accesss it until you are half health because she's stunned and combo'd you and you can't trade AAs because of the steroid on her ult. It even has virtually n ocooldowns. Why is this allowed? Why am I not only unable to outdamage her but I'm also unable to cast spells because I'm chain cc'd while dying quickly. We removed silences for this on champions like Kassadin and LeBlanc because there was no meaningful way to fight them back. This isn't different, a kit lie Riven's with the steroids galore should, at bare minimum, have some type of delay on her CC so that she doesn't either mitigate massive amounts of damage or deal too much damage for me to handle whlie stunned and I have to be afraid of the AoE executes. Don't even suggest to "just engage on her," because that doesn't work. She has just as much disengage as she does the potential to engage so even when you try to do this, you still get out-traded without being able to damage her. You basically have to wait for her to fuck up. There are small windows of weaknesses in Riven's kit, much the same way Fizz has this problem. These weaknesses pale in comparison to how oppressive their strengths are and their vulnerabilities aren't nearly as close to exploitable compared to how much raw power thye have. Bottom line is this, Riven is a champion that seems to bet nerfed every single season and we are 5 seeasons in with it still being a problem. Something needs to be done, I don't care that high elo Riven mains think she's fine or try to tell you she's balanced. There's just as many high elo players, if not more, who think she's complete bullshit. Redidt white knight heroes just constantly try to jerk her mains to death and nobody wants to do anything about it. Riven is a champion that currently abuses mechanics in the game that you've addressed in other forms with other champions because it lacked meaningful counterplay.

59 Comments

Zaghyr8/8/2015, 6:10:54 PM17 votes

This is one the dumbest arguments i have ever seen.

  1. When has a riven ever been able to execute a full combo (most of, or entire kit) in 0.9 seconds?
  2. "It's really no different with Riven except against Akali you can cast spells." You can't cast spells against riven, hmm, never knew.
  3. You can cancel auto's with ANY CHAMP.
  4. " you can't trade AAs because of the steroid on her ult." Her ult has nothing do with you auto attacking her
  5. She has ONE steroid, AD, two if you count her passive but that isn't much of a steroid as a brief AA empowerment. There are plenty of other champs with more than 2 or 3 steroids in their kit.
Joe Dredd8/8/2015, 1:35:26 PM12 votes

no counterplay to veigar ult he r i die boo hoo absolutely no counterplay none

Crett8/8/2015, 1:01:21 PM7 votes

Sion item 3075 item 3083 item 3026 item 3143 item 3110 item 3025 she still killed me in about 10 seconds

Baunjo8/8/2015, 2:23:45 PM7 votes
  1. She does not complete her combo in 0.9 seconds, i have no idea where in hell you got this idea from.
  2. She has plenty of meaningful counter play. Riven is the worst champion on the map without kills, her lategame scaling needs plenty of items to make her this unstoppable monster everyone sees her as. Therefore you punish her early on, and maintain steady harass on her. Whenever Rivens E is on cooldown is a very good time to trade. either that or she gets zoned. Also anytime riven has to use Q and E to gap close, her damage is greatly reduced, and is only increased with each time she uses Q. Try and judge things like this for yourself. Finally Riven's Q is actually a lot easier to dodge then you think. You can sidestep it, like a skillshot.

There ya go counterplay solved. And no i didnt bother reading the QQing OP.

Zhugan8/8/2015, 9:16:57 PM4 votes

OP's post gave me cancer because both Akali and Riven have lots of windows for counterplay.

Riven has two pieces of relatively low duration CC, which means you can counter and it isn't "impossible" to cast spells. She is mobile, but like Akali it is in a single direction (if you go in, you just used your kit to get in... if you go out, then you used your kit to get out).

They both build A LOT of damage, but that also means that they are easily blown up if you CC them.

As for Riven's steroids there are wildly more annoying steroids. Like Vayne's ultimate. Or Twitch ultimate. Or Jax ultimate.

Riven is annoying and the scaling in her kit is arguably too high. But all of the stuff you are complaining about is ridiculous. Especially by comparing her to Akali in her current state (which is about as weak as it has ever been).

Shosuko8/8/2015, 7:11:38 PM4 votes

I'm with you. Her kit is overloaded like crazy. It's not about changing numbers, it's about changing her kit.

Back in the day we had actual cd's on defensive abilities so you could punish champions. GP's orange has a long CD, so does Yi's meditate... Why Fizz and Raven get really low cd on defensive abilities I don't know... riot really messed up on both of these guys. If they are allowed to be powerful they are 100% dominant, their balance always sits on a razor edge. It's the fault of offense + defense tied abilities which allow them to trade most effectively, assassinate and escape.

When people say these champs take skill they also miss a very important point... Yes it takes skill to time your shield, but you have that shield which if used right completely turns the fight around. The reward for skill is too high. This is the same thing Lee Sin faced through s2. Sure he had a lot to his kit you had to manage, but the reward was off the charts (and tbh the risk wasn't exactly low either)

I was playing as GP against a riven the other day and I harassed her down to about 10% health. This isn't an exaggeration, she was very very low, meanwhile I was at 90% health. We engage at my tower and in the time of her stun I'm reduced to 10% health along with her, and her shield blocks my parrrley giving her fb.

Champions neeeeeed to have weaknesses. This has been a MAJOR overhaul Riot has done taking away silences on Kassadin and tweaking other champions. Riven neeeeeeds a rework to give her a weakness. If she is going to be resource free she needs to have meaningful cd's, especially on defensive abilities. I think 14 seconds max rank on her shield, and an additional 2 seconds to each dash ability. Another option would be to add mana costs so she can't spam abilities in lane shielding every harass while trading with her 2 cc abilities.

I prefer the idea of giving her mana. All the talk about Riven skill will get real when a Riven ult + q's in without the mana to w and e.

Slamurai Jack8/8/2015, 7:56:01 PM4 votes

Riven has tons of counterplay, I just guarantee you refuse to use it. I see so many people get rekt by a Riven because they literally refuse to hit her, especially early game. Riven just used her shield to get close to you? Fucking hit her.

SpecterVonBaren8/8/2015, 7:18:59 PM3 votes

At least Akali's escape has the counterplay of buying a pink ward, Riven just smashes her buttons and outruns anyone that isn't Rammus.

Zair Umbras8/9/2015, 12:01:42 AM2 votes

The difference between Akali and Riven is if you have a knockback or slow, Riven is fucked. Akali won't be 'cause targeted gap closer.

SunriseSkaterKid8/9/2015, 12:41:09 AM2 votes

Once again another biased plat-bronze post about how riven is broken... Sigh.

Maybe plat-bronze players are the true experts and diamond-pros are idiots because they think riven sucks.

Mandang08/8/2015, 7:03:51 PM2 votes

Nice post, but some paragraphs wouldn't kill you.

KnighRrider8/8/2015, 10:16:50 PM2 votes

U guys are forgetting something. 1 only extremely good players can "pull off her entire combo in 0.9 seconds and 100-0 anything squishy." and I doubt that's even possible. 2 Riven is only capable of that if she gets very fed, if she isn't able to out dmg her enemy in trades she tends to die very fast since she has like 0 sustain or armor and she doesn't get tanky like... ever, even when shes fed. 3 there are other champions that dont even have to pull off their combo to "100-0 anything squishy" look'n at u Katarina Annie Veigar and Leblanc And 4 Riven is designed to be successful at winning her lane ...but it doesn't go much further than that. in team fights shes terrible, because she can't take dmg or cc from several enemies at once. I main Riven and I'm very confident in lane if I'm not counter picked(and yes there are counter picks for her) but late game gets dangerous for her in an even match. I have never played her successfully in an ARAM. Shes just not designed to take the kind of dmg u need to be able to survive. It usually goes just jump in with ur team and try to get off as much dmg as possible with ur combo before u hit cooldowns and die. So just to clarify my point: shes not horribly broken and impossible to play against, shes just supposed to be difficult to lane with. She has weaknesses people just need to look for them, and if u find her weaknesses aren't as big as a lot of champion's, then just suck it up because there are many champions out there with few weaknesses.

magic pole8/9/2015, 12:41:01 AM2 votes

then why are you playing squishies against Riven?

and if you're talking about about post-lane, well her counter is similar to Katarina . group, CC her, focus her, and she drops like a fly. don't try to 1v1 or even 2v1 her if you are both squishy. She will CC you and her aoe is enough to kill you both at the same time.

you know...at a certain level, you can't just play anything and expect to win. then cry when you lose. Pick/ban strategy is a huge part of this game, even if it takes up a minimum of the actual game-time.

YossarianSensei8/9/2015, 4:47:33 AM1 votes

I don't think so.

The counterplay is don't stand so close if you think she can gib you. In a fight, Riven can rarely reach the back line.

Jefftiffy8/8/2015, 7:56:27 PM1 votes

Find it funny when people talk about Riven they forget that her ult gives her more mobility too. It increases the range of all spells. Meaning her Q's and E's go further and her W stuns further away.

DarkSoul668/8/2015, 9:16:26 PM1 votes

Actually he full combo takes 2.4 Seconds to be exact :) (With Animation cancelling).