If Vayne's True Damage was...

Oglaf·Nov 16, 2016·4 votes·875 views

... changed to Magic, would she be utterly ruined as a Champ? Somehow I doubt it.

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

35 Comments

Mr Broken WingsNov 16, 20166 votes

fun fact : over 80% of vaynes lategamedamage is physical damage. Its a myth that she represents a tank shredder with truedamage. Your thread is pointless, ofc she wouldnt be completly useless, but she would be worse ( oh magic that happens when you nerf a champion DUH) and then they would have to buff her again.

OglafNov 16, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Broken Wings,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4giAhe4s,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-11-16T23:25:12.301+0000)

fun fact : over 80% of vaynes lategamedamage is physical damage. Its a myth that she represents a tank shredder with truedamage. Your thread is pointless, ofc she wouldnt be completly useless, but she would be worse ( oh magic that happens when you nerf a champion DUH) and then they would have to buff her again.

Then why are you crying so hard over the mere theoretical replacement of it? Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Besides, 20% of her total damage being True damage is not and insignificant amount.

Mr Broken WingsNov 16, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Then why are you crying so hard over the mere theoretical replacement of it? Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Besides, 20% of her total damage being True damage is not and insignificant amount.

You basically just asked " hey guys would be draven completly trash if we changed his q damage to magic damage?" or " lol guys would it be a bad thing if we took singed poison and half the damage? I think he would be fine lol" Its just a stupid thread and thats why I tell you that its stupid o.o

LXIINov 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

I don't think that means what you think it means.

OglafNov 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Suit Thea,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4giAhe4s,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2016-11-16T23:40:05.391+0000)

I don't think that means what you think it means.

Forsooth!

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 16, 20161 votes

so now all champs have true damage need to be magic damage?

OglafNov 16, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4giAhe4s,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-11-16T23:19:31.303+0000)

so now all champs have true damage need to be magic damage?

Whatever gave you that stupid impression?

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 16, 20161 votes

why would vayne need not to have true damage ?

OglafNov 16, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4giAhe4s,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-16T23:23:33.460+0000)

why would vayne need not to have true damage ?

It is not True damage itself that is problematic, but the fact that it is scaling on enemy Health - and on auto-attacks as opposed to an ability, so AS makes it go full retard.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 16, 20161 votes

ok lets say she maxes it and you have 4000 hp and she is doing 12% damage *only after it procs / it dont work on every auto * its 480 damage

what about a champ like maokai whos W ability does % hp damage and is a cc that at max rank is 13% of targets maximum health and scales 3% for ever 100 ap?

for one targeted cc ability with 250 ap which isnt hard to build on him will do 21% hp damage based on maximum targets health

and its magic damage

so same target has 4000 hp * 21% is 840 magic damage

OglafNov 16, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4giAhe4s,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-16T23:32:26.603+0000)

ok lets say she maxes it and you have 4000 hp and she is doing 12% damage *only after it procs / it dont work on every auto * its 480 damage

what about a champ like maokai whos W ability does % hp damage and is a cc that at max rank is 13% of targets maximum health and scales 3% for ever 100 ap?

for one targeted cc ability with 250 ap which isnt hard to build on him will do 21% hp damage based on maximum targets health

and its magic damage

so same target has 4000 hp * 21% is 840 magic damage

... do you even know the difference between True damage and Magic damage?

Also, do you know the difference between an ability with a cooldown/mana costs and auto-attacks?

Vayne will be able to trigger her passive % damage multiple times in the timespan it takes for Maokai to use his ability twice, since AS is a very popular stat on her for that very reason.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 16, 20161 votes

ok lets say the target of maokai has 50 mr they will still take more damage from his twisted advance then you do from the proc of vaynes true damage

Fawkes04Nov 17, 20161 votes

And now think about this: let's compare Maokai and Vayne from your example. Both don't really use the %-damage-part against squishy enemies, so what if they attack let's say . Now let's assume Nautilus has like 150 MR, nothing special actually (and for easy calculation, 4k HP like you assumed for your example)

Maokai attacks him with his W, that makes 840 magic damage without MR as you calculated. Now take MR into consideration, you get 840*(100/(100+150)) which is the formula for damage-reduction according to LoL-Wiki. That's a total 336 damage on a at least 5.4 second CD. Vayne attacks him with 1.5 AS, so she procs her W every 2 seconds. As you calculated, 1 proc deals 480 damage, means 2 procs deal 960.

Now for easy calculation, let's assume Maokai i has 5 seconds, so he casts W two times in 10 seconds for a total of 772 damage. In 10 seconds Vayne procs her W 5 times for a total of 4.8k damage.

You see the problem?

PhDs NutsNov 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

And now think about this: let's compare and from your example. Both don't really use the %-damage-part against squishy enemies, so what if they attack let's say . Now let's assume Nautilus has like 150 MR, nothing special actually (and for easy calculation, 4k HP like you assumed for your example)

attacks him with his W, that makes 840 magic damage without MR as you calculated. Now take MR into consideration, you get 840*(100/(100+150)) which is the formula for damage-reduction according to LoL-Wiki. That's a total 336 damage on a at least 5.4 second CD. attacks him with 1.5 AS, so she procs her W every 2 seconds. As you calculated, 1 proc deals 480 damage, means 2 procs deal 960.

Now for easy calculation, let's assume i has 5 seconds, so he casts W two times in 10 seconds for a total of 772 damage. In 10 seconds procs her W 5 times for a total of 4.8k damage.

You see the problem?

You did your easy calculation wrong.

5 procs in 10 seconds at 480 each is 2400 damage.

Fawkes04Nov 17, 20161 votes

Of course you are right, thanks for pointing this out :)

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 17, 20161 votes

what about attack speed reduction? item 3143

and you are assuming mao dont have magic pen which would increase his damage applied on W

Fawkes04Nov 17, 20161 votes

AS reduction? Assume Vayne has like PD+Statikk or swap one of them for Botrk, then you come to like 1.5 with respect to Randuins, at least that's my experience. Should have explained that in my post maybe.

And well, Maokai might have like maybe 10 magic pen in his usual build, so he'd do like 350 damage. But that's actually a minor difference I think, still should have taken it into account though.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 17, 20161 votes

but yea not like a maokai can have 75K damage dealt in a game and have a kda of something like 18-8-19 right?

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 17, 20161 votes

http://imgur.com/c9v0PB3 oh wait...

yea that was me

Fawkes04Nov 17, 20161 votes

Just for clarification: Did you play tank mao or AP-mao? And why are you comparing standard Vayne with a totally overfed Maokai? Since with full AP you'd die instantly if you are not that fed

Edit: According to your matchhistory you are playing Mao with sunfire (magic damage), rod, abyssal (10% more magic damage) and liandrys (% hp magic damage burn, doubled by every ability apart from R) usually. that's a lot of external magic damage sources (not counting AP as such, since it's for mao like AS for Vayne obviously).

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 17, 20161 votes

well if you look at the stats jinx had 20 kills that game she was super fed and i out damage her by 30k to champs while tanking 66k in damage my build was item 3025 item 3075 item 3027 item 3151 item 3068 item 3020

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 17, 20161 votes

its related to the OP saying vayne needs to have her true damage changed magic damage on proc and it because her having true damage is unfair..

and is which is where i said that mao's w does 13% hp damage + 3% per 100 ap... on target of 4000 hp would be doing 840 magic damage to that target... where as vayne would do 480

and that is how we got on this tangent

Fawkes04Nov 17, 20161 votes

I agree with you on the point that it should NOT be changed to magic damage. The point for me is not her having true damage is unfair. It's more like her having percentage max HP true damage seems to much. Especially in Combination with her R giving her loads of free AD (up to 70, which means BF + 3 Longswords) so she does get away with buying AS only and her Q being able to crit so she can actually delete squishy AND tanky champions equally well.

You are right of course, Maokai deals 840 magic damage in this case - if, and only if his target has 0 MR. Assuming a Nautilus with 4k HP should usually have like 150 MR ( item 3065 + item 3111 or something like that) at least, I'll re-do the calculation for the W with your build. item 3151 + item 3020 + 7.8 MagicPen from runes are a little less than 40 MPen. So you deal 400 damage effectively against the Nautilus. Still less than the 480 Vayne would deal. With Respect to CD/AS, I'll calculate this part again too. So Maokai deals 800 damage in 10 seconds, Vayne deals 2,4k. that's quite the difference.

You outdamaging Jinx is nice, but it could mean anything. Maybe she mainly attacked a fed Maokai with 3 Armor-Items, or she attacked Malphite most times. Maybe she got ulted by Malphite a few times and was instantly killed by like Aatrox and Jhin. It's even possible that she had no item 3035 this game, I can't tell. Also item 3151 does 4% current HP damage on Maokai (every abylity except R impairs movement), item 3068 deals magic damage and item 3075 deals magic damage for ever received AA, so if Jinx AAs you she might actually harm herself more than you.

Another question: item 3151 + fully stacked item 3027 means 180 AP. Your calculation assumes 250 AP. Natural Talent gives 15 AP at lvl 18. So you lack 55 AP here, 40 if we assume AP Quints. What did I miss here?

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 17, 20161 votes

lol did u not look at the screen shot at all, jinx was my adc with 20 kills .

Fawkes04Nov 17, 20161 votes

Actually no, since it does not really matter. There are so many factors to take into consideration that might cause a Jinx to deal less damage than Maokai, most of them are tied to the person playing Jinx.

Furthermore, one time experiencing something proves nothing, mainly because there are lots of possible other reasons.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 16, 20161 votes

also vayne is abusing CRIT DAMAGE applied with her Q scaling bonus ad damage which is then more amplified by her ad steroid from her ult...

GULAG 4 UNov 16, 20161 votes

Agreeing with you here. Fawkn's statement is nonsense.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 17, 20161 votes

yep cuz 700 magic damage to target is less then 480 true damage

GULAG 4 UNov 17, 20161 votes

???

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 17, 20161 votes

exactly

Fawkes04Nov 17, 20161 votes

Well, 700 magic damage would mean assuming, you have a 4k HP target with 20 MR after taking magic pen into account, that's not quite the realistic approach I think.

Mecha MaIphiteNov 16, 20161 votes

what is the point of this thread

IronfieldNov 17, 20161 votes

Hello summoner! The current problem with vayne is not her true damage on her w, the main issue with vayne currently is the ability to critically strike with her q. Reworking her current w true damage into a magic damage will not solve the glaring issue in her current kit. Another reason i dont see why riot would change vaynes silver bolts into magic damage is due to that being kog maws niche.

IronfieldNov 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Hello summoner! The current problem with vayne is not her true damage on her w, the main issue with vayne currently is the ability to critically strike with her q. Reworking her current w true damage into a magic damage will not solve the glaring issue that is her burst in her current kit. Another reason i dont see why riot would change vaynes silver bolts into magic damage is due to that being kog maws niche.