So what DO you want junglers to be able to do?

BobaFlautist·Jun 12, 2017·14 votes·939 views

You don't want them to be able to keep up in gold and xp by farming, because that's "uninteractive scaling".

You don't want taxing your lane, because that sets you behind.

You want every buff after the second, maybe the third, to be donated to mid and bot lane.

You don't want them to get ahead on ganks because that's "too snowbally".

And now people are complaining about junglers influencing their lane by ganking...? Which is literally all that's left...?

Look, I'm not a fan of these early game powerhouse damage junglers either...I like to jungle tanks, and Zac and Sejuani are definitely overtuned at the moment.

But before you make yet another god-damned thread about how you miss the days when the Jungler was basically another support, who had to buy two gold-generating items to keep up, and basically existed to fall behind anyway.....try to decide for yourself what a good jungler should be able to do.

How IS a good player supposed to be impactful in the role if all these things are unacceptable?

25 Comments

BananaSlayerAMOJun 12, 20175 votes

They're supposed to be exerting pressure around the map / adding a sense of mystery, and capitalizing on advantages with positioning.

It's really all about getting the balance right, so jungling is interactive and has an impact but doesn't solely dictate games.

makkiiJun 12, 20173 votes

{quoted}

IMO, they're supposed to be exerting pressure around the map / adding a sense of mystery, and capitalizing on advantages with positioning.

It's really all about getting the balance right, so jungling is interactive and has an impact but does not solely dictate games.

This, to piggyback, each role has a purpose, with jungler being to amplify team performance and pressure. Going back to the balance thing, since junglers undoubtedly have the most team based influence, should they really have the most individual power? More than solos? I dont think so

Tobias BracknerJun 13, 20171 votes

The jungler doesn't solely dictate games. People are just mad that they have to learn how junglers work in the most basic way and so would rather beg Rito for nerfs.

SnakDatSmilesBakJun 12, 20172 votes

Imo a jungler should be able to farm, gank, and fight the other jungler.

ErockandrollJun 12, 20172 votes

I don't exactly see the "Glorified support" and the "ganking machines" as mutually exclusive. Considering the CC needed to lock down your opponents aren't particularly restricted by stats.

Speaking of Glorified Support, I would appreciate it if you could do more with Vision on the Top side of the map. As a Support main, I can pretty much have the bot side covered. But if the ADC is still laning, (And they can be stubborn about it) then I can't go north of mid lane, without abandoning him. This is more important now since the Herald update. If laning extends pass 10 minutes, you will need to supply the vision yourself if you want to contest.

Lothàrs EdgeJun 12, 20172 votes

It's not about what junglers should do, I just think purchasable wards should be brought back, but stock timers should exist so people can't spam them.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 12, 20172 votes

I agree with what u writed.

I just wan't... the old jungle. By old, i don't mean S6, i mean what we had before all they nerf. What the junglers should doing is all this LeeSin (farm, gank, invade). And before the nerfs it was easy to do all of this... even with a weak jungler (by weak, mean weak early).

Jungler are the ones whose rhythm the game, they have the most mobility among all role (in front of support, then mid). But they shouldn't have same xp as duolane. Come on its totaly legit to have a lower xp for them, mainly for adc (see their scaling).

makkiiJun 12, 20171 votes

1 Yes, the junglers typically shouldnt be out leveling or farming the solos because not only do they already have more influence on the game already as jungler, but if they are stronger than the doloers, than ultimately the fate of not iudt the jungle but of the solo lanes rests in the hands of the junglers and takes agency away from solo laners individual performance. Summary: If the junglers are too strong, ganks are too hard to fend off, and the fate of the lane is no longer abput laner skill primarily. 2 we dont want you taxing the lane because laning is not your role, and it puts us at a disadvantage vs the enemy laner, you have a jungle use it.

3 Other people may demand it, but i could give a shit about getting the buffs, just dont feed the enemy laner your buffs at lvls1-5 and were solid.

4 ganking right now is too easy with the current vision and tools available, i dont think getting ahead off kills is so much a problem as the ease at which ganks are successfully initiated.

The jungler already has the most influence on the game because 1. They arent relegated to a lane and can traverse into lanes easier than other laners tied up in their own and 2. Because they secure team power obiectives such as dragon, herald and baron, and smaller ones such as the scuttler, which have some of the heaviest influence on the outcome of the game.

Since they have the most influence already by nature, they shouldnt be the most powerful individual per team unless fed, and they most certainly shouldnt have more avwrage influence on lane performance than the laner themselves, because that's ludicrous

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 12, 20171 votes

If the junglers are too strong, ganks are too hard to fend off, and the fate of the lane is no longer abput laner skill primarily. 2 we dont want you taxing the lane because laning is not your role, and it puts us at a disadvantage vs the enemy laner, you have a jungle use it.

Funny... laners use jungle too.

4 ganking right now is too easy with the current vision and tools available, i dont think getting ahead off kills is so much a problem as the ease at which ganks are successfully initiated.

Avoid a gank is pretty easy too... unless u are top. Cause as u said there many tools available.

The jungler already has the most influence on the game because 1. They arent relegated to a lane and can traverse into lanes easier than other laners tied up in their own and 2. Because they secure team power obiectives such as dragon, herald and baron, and smaller ones such as the scuttler, which have some of the heaviest influence on the outcome of the game.

yeah, but when ur team isn't winning, jungler are the ones to fall hard behind too. they secure objectives with smite... but u need ur team to do it without problem. For scuttle, laner can do it too after so time and for the first ones mid are impatctful.

makkiiJun 12, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4gZnXmBA,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-06-12T21:50:44.498+0000)

2 we dont want you taxing the lane because laning is not your role, and it puts us at a disadvantage vs the enemy laner, you have a jungle use it.

Funny... laners use jungle too.

Avoid a gank is pretty easy too... unless u are top. Cause as u said there many tools available.

yeah, but when ur team isn't winning, jungler are the ones to fall hard behind too. they secure objectives with smite... but u need ur team to do it without problem. For scuttle, can do it too after so time and for the first ones mid are impactful.

1 if laners are taking your jungle diring lane phase without asking permission they are dicks.

2 By tools available I meant for the jungler.

3 so your saying because if a team does bad and as a result the jungler does bad its justification for the jungle role to be overpowered?

4 Yes laners can help with buffs and can help with scuttle, the difference is they have a lane to maintain, but a jungler does not have to worry about that, they are free to roam and they are also free to kill buffs and jungle objectives without consequence which is fine as its their territory. With laners there is a tradeoff in leaving their lane unnatended. This means that for the first 11-12 levels or so the jungler is the prime securer of these objectives.

So again, every role has its purpose, if junglers already have the most influence on team performance, it makes no sense balance-wise to make him inherently the strongest role in solo power, if thats yoir ideal balance philosophy might as well rename the game to league of junglers.

This is a TEAM game, other players exist besides junglers, its ok if junglers are the star of the show, whats not ok is when one role (in this case jungle) is too strong, and makes other roles to a degree irrelevant to the games outcome.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 12, 20171 votes

1 if laners are taking your jungle diring lane phase without asking permission they are dicks.

i didn't mean during the very early.

2 By tools available I meant for the jungler.

??? item 2055 item 3364 ( item 2049 ) item 3363 item 3340 are also available for laners.

4 Yes laners can help with buffs and can help with scuttle, the difference is they have a lane to maintain, but a jungler does not have to worry about that, they are free to roam and they are also free to kill buffs and jungle objectives without consequence which is fine as its their territory. With laners there is a tradeoff in leaving their lane unnatended. This means that for the first 11-12 levels or so the jungler is the prime securer of these objectives.

What u seem to misunderstand here is this : objective aren't jungle responsability. And they're will be a trade off if ur team know how to ward.

So again, every role has its purpose, if junglers already have the most influence on team performance, it makes no sense balance-wise to make him inherently the strongest role in solo power, if thats yoir ideal balance philosophy might as well rename the game to league of junglers.

Jungler will always be the strongest role. But no, other role aren't irrevelent... mainly at low elo.

makkiiJun 12, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4gZnXmBA,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-12T23:19:10.727+0000)

i didn't mean during the very early.

??? () are also available for laners.

What u seem to misunderstand here is this : objective aren't jungle responsability. And they're will be a trade off if ur team know how to ward.

Jungler will always be the strongest role. But no, other role aren't irrevelent... mainly at low

If you dint mean very early what the fuck do you mean? When does anyone cry about lane "taxing" mid/lategame?! Lane phase is OVER by then genius, as is solo jungle territory.

Sight stone is almost exclusively a botlane item, furthermore the warding trinkets are very limited in the way it can be used due to the limits imposed on it, also players can no longer buy standalone basic consumeable wards. Junglers on the other hand have trackers, which means they can opt for an early game or start of game sweepers, so because mid and top only really have access to the pathetic warding trinket early on, yes the jungler has a tooled advantage.

Objectives are everyones responsibility yes, but not only does the jungler have more responsibility when it comes to things, he has way more ease of access to secure these things, which is why the jungler has more influence here. You're right, jungler will likely always be the strongest tole, doesnt mean we should let it be OVERPOWERED, you are literally acknowledging jungle is strongest, so whats wrong with nerfing it?

Asayake 5150glowJun 12, 20171 votes

Who is 'you'?

BobaFlautistJun 12, 20173 votes

The boards community as a whole, which seems to largely agree that

Junglers should not be able to keep up on gold and xp solely from farming
Junglers should be incentivised not to "chain gank", preferably by being "punished" for doing so.
Junglers should not be able to consistently secure kills while ganking against proper play.
Lee Sin is really annoying, and 5., which I admit to assmuing without evidence, junglers should have a meaningful impact on the game proportion to their skill, much like the other four roles.

What I want to know is, if farming the jungle won't give you meaningful gold and xp, and if ganks cannot be consistently pulled off against proper play, how do you incentivise junglers to do anything other than chain-smoking the same, repeatedly over-studying lane?

There's nothing for them in the jungle itself except the slow death of falling behind while simultaneously not impacting the game.

They can't mix it up and gank other lanes, because while it might alleviate some pressure, it sets the Jungler even further behind because they can't secure anything, and you aren't supposed to tax after a "failed gank" (or even a successful gank, according to some people).

So...what is the Jungler supposed to be doing, if they can't succeed by farming, and they can't succeed by ganking? What is the point of the Jungler if you don't want them to influence your lane but you don't want them to be able to win without influencing lanes? What do YOU want them to do?

Asayake 5150glowJun 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

The boards community as a whole, which seems to largely agree that

Junglers should not be able to keep up on gold and xp solely from farming

Junglers should be incentivised not to "chain gank", preferably by being "punished" for doing so.

Junglers should not be able to consistently secure kills while ganking against proper play.

Lee Sin is really annoying, and 5., which I admit to assmuing without evidence, junglers should have a meaningful impact on the game proportion to their skill, much like the other four roles.

What I want to know is, if farming the jungle won't give you meaningful gold and xp, and if ganks cannot be consistently pulled off against proper play, how do you incentivise junglers to do anything other than chain-smoking the same, repeatedly over-studying lane?

There's nothing for them in the jungle itself except the slow death of falling behind while simultaneously not impacting the game.

They can't mix it up and gank other lanes, because while it might alleviate some pressure, it sets the Jungler even further behind because they can't secure anything, and you aren't supposed to tax after a "failed gank" (or even a successful gank, according to some people).

So...what is the Jungler supposed to be doing, if they can't succeed by farming, and they can't succeed by ganking? What is the point of the Jungler if you don't want them to influence your lane but you don't want them to be able to win without influencing lanes? What do YOU want them to do?

Well, you don't need a kill in order to gank successfully.

They can also participate in teamfights and take neutral objectives.

It's pretty rare to consistently play perfectly, in which case ganks will kill you. Especially if you're playing a champion who is vulnerable to ganks.

makkiiJun 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

The boards community as a whole, which seems to largely agree that

Junglers should not be able to keep up on gold and xp solely from farming

Junglers should be incentivised not to "chain gank", preferably by being "punished" for doing so.

Junglers should not be able to consistently secure kills while ganking against proper play.

Lee Sin is really annoying, and 5., which I admit to assmuing without evidence, junglers should have a meaningful impact on the game proportion to their skill, much like the other four roles. cannot be consistently pulled off against proper play, how do you incentivise junglers to do anything other than chain-smoking the same, repeatedly over-studying lane?

There's nothing for them in the jungle itself except the slow death of falling behind while simultaneously not impacting the game.

They can't mix it up and gank other lanes, because while it might alleviate some pressure, it sets the Jungler even further behind because they can't secure anything, and you aren't supposed to tax after a "failed gank" (or even a successful gank, according to some people).

So...what is the Jungler supposed to be doing, if they can't succeed by farming, and they can't succeed by ganking? What is the point of the Jungler if you don't want them to influence your lane but you don't want them to be able to win without influencing lanes? What do YOU want them to do?

You seem to be under the impression that not being able to match solo lanes on gold and xp is synonymous with being incapable of "Keeping up", i dont know if its a sense of entitlement or what, but i guess we have to gobthrough this again.

What wins games? In a phrase SECURING OBJECTIVES.... what role is about 50% responsible for a teams success in this regard? JUNGLERS, so in that breadth if a jungler is as strong in XP AND GOLD as solo laners, you are taking away a solos PRime fucking directive, which is to be the mid game powerhouses. why dont you demand junglers have as much lategame scaling as adc while you're at it?

And you think that ganks should be able to be pulled off vs proper play? (Proper being relative to situation at hand)? So lanes should just fall over dead because the jungle came and ganked a couple times than? Skill and intellect shouldnt matter? I bet you just love participation trophies and handouts.

I swear some people dont seem to give two shits about balance or you know the game being fun for more than 2/10 players... nah its all about me me me.

But yeah you right, junglers should have best objective control, best solo power, lets throw best scaling in there too, oh and while were at it lets give them an extra trinket slot with a trinket that gives them 4 extra wards so support can be runner up on vision control, yeah sounds good, jungler gets everything, lets make it happen, fuck everybody else.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 12, 20171 votes

. why dont you demand junglers have as much lategame scaling as adc while you're at it?

MasterYi nice joke bro.

makkiiJun 12, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4gZnXmBA,comment-id=0004000000010000,timestamp=2017-06-12T23:31:30.612+0000)

nice joke bro.

Were talking on average here "bro"

sit kidJun 12, 20171 votes

I want junglers to not be supportive minions, only strong on their own when they're either lee sin or 3/0.

In all of my jungling years, getting behind in S7 is the most frustrating thing ever. High respawn timers on the camps and the reworked xp gains from the jungle has just created more imbalance than ever before. I remember back in the good old S5 days where every champion had their own enchantment, AD champions wouldnt rush tiamat and junglers actually had some relevance.

The current map is darker than ever before, creating huge snowballs and power to early gankers. When their clears are fast too that's a problem. Zac clears way faster than Warwick and still remains healthy in the jungle. He also has better ganks.

ZT XperimentorJun 12, 20171 votes

A variety to be viable, not just one kind that decides games by existing.

A Basic IslandJun 12, 20171 votes

i kinda miss the days where junglers could start cloth 5, dorans blade, or boots 3 and be successful

NineTailedMysticJun 13, 20171 votes

A balance. We don't want only farm junglers that never gank and you only see them 30 minutes into the game. We don't want only gankers since they have too much influence on the lanes. We don't want junglers to be outleveling laners, but they shouldn't basically be on Support gold/exp.

Tobias BracknerJun 13, 20171 votes

People are mad that junglers are beating them so complain instead of actually learning how junglers work so they can beat them.

LauchmelderJun 13, 20171 votes

All I care about is:

Junglers shouldn't be able to keep up with gold and levels when they decide to camp a lane.

Deciding to camp a lane should influence that lane but the jungler should have to decide on if he wants to keep up in levels or wants to get a lane ahead. Right now they can do both, which is BS.

deadlychuckJun 13, 20171 votes

And now people are complaining about junglers influencing their lane by ganking...? Which is literally all that's left...?

Well, why did riot change it so that there was literally only 1 way to play junglers? Seriously.

The reason that people are complaining about this is because it's exhausting to deal with the exact same game every game for extended periods of time. So when riot decided that the only viable way to play the jungle is to basically play the equivalent of river shen, doing nothing but ganking or taking red/blue and dragon are important, then people are going to get sick of every jungler being played in that exact same manner.

It's bad enough, that if you forget to take smite, you can still reasonably "jungle" by just taking the buffs and ganking constantly.