Matchmaking is garbage

Big Ol Idiot Man·Sep 23, 2017·90 votes·4,891 views

Title. Gotta love being in your promos for Platinum (2-2) and getting stuck with a player who had won a single summoners rift game in over a week.

70 Comments

CavemanteroSep 23, 201726 votes

Its a garbage system. Everyone knows it. The above post from Garlic Butter proves it. Just lol and move on to a better game. Non-LCS ranked is a joke. Always will be. Elo system is trash for a team driven game. All based on luck of the teammate...

SchenixSep 23, 20178 votes

I can't say any specifics on how to fix it or why it's broken. But yesterday, I had 2 unrankeds on my team and 1 unranked on the enemy team,, both top laners so it was interesting to watch. Additionally, they had a D1 jungler. (Who was a smurf, they climbed to D1 in less than 2 months from nothing and account was made this season.) where our highest was a Plat 5, then 1 silver and gold.

Now, I don't mind a D1 appeared or was smurfing. That's a free prerogative with almost any game. But, I can't imagine a system is allowed in good faith, to have unranked and a D1 in the same game under any circumstance. Those are complete opposite ends of the spectrum and in no way reasonably justifiable. Even if in norms you duo with one, why it pairs you with a team that is ranked objectively far lower is beyond understanding.

The system isn't terrible, but there need to be hard limits -- not variable blindness.

OnlyGragasOnlyGGSep 23, 20177 votes

1300 games, 50 % WR, you just have to accept that you have found your place in the rank ladder for this year. Matchmaking might be garbage sometimes, but it's not the only reason why it feels hard to climb.

LXIISep 23, 201718 votes

My problem is this: Yes, in a 1v1 scenario against an opponent literally equal to you in all forms of skill, you should likely always end up around 50% give or take a win or two.

This game is not 1v1, it's 5v5 and you have agency over 1 of 10 players. You win games where you lost lane and you lose games where you crush lane. This is because you're still only one of 5 people on your team. You're not all equals in skill, sometimes it's pretty close, sometimes not at all. But damn near never are all 10 players in a game equals. This makes it more luck based than anything, especially in this "better ADC wins" meta we currently have. Then count in the fact that some people in your elo are still climbing while others actually have peaked. The ones still on their climb have to be on one team, that team now has a huge advantage. There's no way in this system we would all be hovering around 50% if there weren't some failsafes in there to make sure it happened.

Last little point to add in. OP was one win away from hitting a new tier. ONE. I hardly think it's fair to say they've just "found their place in the ladder" when one game would have disprove that statement.

LeonerdoSep 23, 20171 votes

There's no way in this system we would all be hovering around 50% if there weren't some failsafes in there to make sure it happened.

There's only two "failsafes" if you could even call it that: First, the amount of MMR you gain/lose from a match depends on how likely the systems thinks you were to win the match. This accounts for most of the small variations in overall team MMR. Second, matchmaking systems always get more accurate over time, and unless you are actually getting better/worse at the game your MMR will stay the same after ~100. At that point you should win 48-52% of your games in the short-term, and those slight variations will diminish over time, due to the general Law of Averages. That's it. The system does not look at winrates to try and give everyone an equal season-long winrate. It just looks at MMR and tries to give each team an equal chance to win the current game based on the current MMR, and then it adjusts MMR slightly based on the result.

Last little point to add in. OP was one win away from hitting a new tier. ONE. I hardly think it's fair to say they've just "found their place in the ladder" when one game would have disprove that statement.

This is true enough. But on the other hand, if his place in the ladder is truly in Plat, then he'll hit promos again and have more chances to get there. The Leagues system does slow people down from getting to their deserved rank, but it never holds them back entirely. Even if you're barely on the cusp of getting the next tier, but you keep getting unlucky promos, you will get there eventually if you want it enough and put in a little extra effort/time. And for some people, that actually makes it more rewarding when they get there (at least theoretically).

CowseedSep 24, 20178 votes

...will get there eventually if you want it enough and put in a little extra effort/time. And for some people, that actually makes it more rewarding when they get there (at least theoretically

It's never fun consistently being able to reach promos but also consistently get horrible people in promos.

LeonerdoSep 24, 20172 votes

I had a longer post, but reconsidered, and realized you wouldn't care about it, since it was reasonable. Instead I'll just go with the much more pithy: "If you consistently are losing/aren't having fun, then it's your fault, since you are the only person who is in all of your games."

CowseedSep 24, 20176 votes

Wow..... I guess every problem in the world is brought on by oneself right?...

Because you're the only consistent person in your own life.

Let's see. I won my promos recently... I guess the reason everyone won there lane is because of me then........ Because I was in the game.

I see you're snide remark indicating that i'm unreasonable. Have you ever thought that maybe you're just too full of yourself. Because that's how you'd talk to people if you were :T.

LeonerdoSep 24, 20171 votes

You ARE being unreasonable. (And I am being snide.) You can't stop blowing things out of proportion and you can't shut up about absolutes, so you can't see the realistic trends. I am tired of ridiculous arguments like these, so yeah, I'm calling you out.

And for some reason, I feel like you're only calling me "full of myself" because you've received that same complaint a lot, so it's fresh on your mind.

Edit: I won't be responding again, btw. I'm trying to cut down on pointless arguments with stubborn strangers on the internet.

CowseedSep 24, 20175 votes

Are you doing a hit and run? Rather cowardly but, meh, whatever.

You ARE being unreasonable. (And I am being snide.) You can't stop blowing things out of proportion and you can't shut up about absolutes, so you can't see the realistic trends. I am tired of ridiculous arguments like these, so yeah, I'm calling you out.

IDEK what this is supposed to mean. All I said was:

It's never fun consistently being able to reach promos but also consistently get horrible people in promos.

Then you started getting all rude. It's fine I guess but just letting you know.

And for some reason, I feel like you're only calling me "full of myself" because you've received that same complaint a lot, so it's fresh on your mind.

What are you even talking about? Who's saying I'm full of myself? I don't know so how are you in a position to say I called you that because other people are calling me that? Have you been ghosting my profile or something because you wouldn't find someone saying that in my profile. You might be able to find someone who'd say that if you were stalking me in real life but even then that chance is pretty low :D.

I won't be responding again, btw. I'm trying to cut down on pointless arguments with stubborn strangers on the internet.

Well excuse me for not wanting to the word of a person who's argument is "you're stubborn therefor I'm right".

If you've read this reply please don't respond for your sake. I think you might give yourself high blood pressure with all of your bad energy

[sg-ahri-2] Peace dude

50Shades0fTryndaSep 25, 20171 votes

we are full of ourself because we have noticed how unbalanced games became just soon after Riot introduced new matchmaking system? ( along with dynamic Q, in case you didnt know)

because we couldnt believe our eyes and then we went to match history after just every match for some time ,and then after longer time of doing so we were finally sure, something isn't righ , im geting matched with bronze silver and gold all the time and sometimes even platinum AND IM IN SILVER(or whatever) , and to make it even worse, almost every game is matched highly in someones favor, which means those games i won are not a representative of my skill , nor those lost games were representative of my skill THEN WHAT IT IS? representative of our skills are those few % of the games which were matched acording to our rank , in other words nearly balanced , and as the practice shows in those 2 or 3 years that those nearly balanced (i would call them fair) are very rare

SO MORE OR LESS, THATS WHAT MY VANITY CONCLUDED AFTER SOME TIME OF A HEAVY RESEARCH

P.S. nearly balanced would in this case mean if one is in gold he will fight against gold, as closer as posible, but atleast without mixing more than 4 divisions, which can be done in practice without leaving queue times too long, in low ranks, and for challenger and diamond, i guess there is probalby better the way as it is, but i personaly would rather wait 30 min for a good game than 10 for a bad one

LXIISep 24, 20171 votes

Preach. I'm the actual President of "Get to Plat Promos then Lose for 2 Days Straight" land. Can confirm it feels bad. Lol

GayFluffyUnicornSep 24, 20171 votes

Tell that to my 9th promo attempt to d3 after dropping out of it. Every. single. promo game has been a complete shitshow filled with trolls and afks. Promo matchmaking has been so bad that for whatever reason only god knows i got a plat 1 49% winrate midlaner vs. dia4/3 team. Are you kidding me. And if people think there is no difference between d3/4 and plat 1/2 just look at my last camille game against a singed and lee. Both premade, both dia 5 singed on his actual main/otp tryharding the shit out of me and i still put them into their places despite being on a champ i just recently started picking up. It was a normal yeah but if you look at the game which i can provide you no problem if you tell me how i can actually give someone else my replays you see they did try hard against me. So yeah matchmaking is garbage as hell. Don't tell me 9 promos mean i don't belong higher when i regularly don't play with d4 anymore before i even reach my promos.

LeonerdoSep 24, 20171 votes

Firstly, I'm honored to meet one of the 0.1% most unlucky players in the game. Statistically, someone has to be that unlucky. It sucks that you had to be one of the few, but it should be comforting to know that luck is temporary, and (as always) you have a 50% chance to make it through the next time.

Second, no one cares about the difference between d3 and d4. They both fall in the category of "Not stuck in D5, but not in high Diamond yet."

Third, really this has nothing to do with matchmaking anyways. The issue is the Leagues system, where LP requires skill (aka MMR), but promos just take time and luck. And garbage teammates or trolls are unavoidable, promos or not, good or bad matchmaking: they are just a product of human inconsistency.

DisembarkSep 24, 20171 votes

Lol, and they probably would sit at 0LP in their new rank. 1300 games is a big enough sample size that it DOESN'T MATTER who your team mates are because the ONLY CONSTANT in your games is YOU.

You'll get autofilled players, enemy will get autofilled players. You will get autofilled, other tops will get autofilled. The one's on the climb might be on your team, or the enemy team.

But in 1300 games? You have weeded out all those inconsistencies and you are now in your "true" rank (for now, until you improve) - because you have been the only consistent factor in your games.

Problem with promo games however, is that those games do not have the same sample size - and autofills etc can drastically effect the outcome of promo games - so in that sense the system is flawed.

LXIISep 24, 20171 votes

Theoretically yes, after that many games you would like be at your proper spot. However those theories only matter in a vacuum where all games are equal like I said before. There never comes a point where it's okay that you auto lose 1/4 of your games in matchmaking. That never gets "weeded out" because it will always have a bearing on your overall winrate.

I don't think we would all have insane winrates or anything in a perfect system, but there would certainly be more variance. And we definitely wouldn't need to play thousands of games over the course of a full year to reach our peak.

DisembarkSep 24, 20171 votes

No lol. In any competitive system people will eventually have 50% win rates.

That's the WHOLE PURPOSE of a matchmaking system. It's trying to put you where you WILL have a 50% win rate because you're at your skill level.

Thats how it is besides for the top .001% of the top.

The same thing will happen in Chess even though it's a 1vs1 game.

The difference is it takes MORE GAMES in league to reach that point because of variance in teams - which makes it frustrating.

You can't just "autolose" 1/4 of your games unless you "autowin" 1/4 of your games. The problem is that YOU don't see it that way.

If you go against an autofilled top and crush him, you're like "haha I'm so good I'm carrying", but if your mid is autofilled and gets crushed your like "autolose!!".

??? In that sense the first game was an autowin ("autolose" for the enemy team - or at least they see it that way).

In 1300 games the autofills even out on both sides, the people that are inting even out on both sides, the boosted accounts even out on both sides.

The only factor that is consistent is you - and you determine where those 1300 games place you.

LXIISep 24, 20172 votes

For starters, I'm not blind enough to believe that beating someone who has no business being matched against me is because I'm a god. This is a system failure and I acknowledge it frequently when I play. The problem though is that everyone benefits (or doesn't) from that same system failure. People that shouldn't win games do, and people that should win don't. This creates a weird zone where skill levels vary highly within the exact same MMR. This isn't a good thing and is why games feel so random.

I'm willing to admit that maybe if I put down another 800 games per season my views on this might change. But honestly not everyone has time for that and if a system requires thousands of baseline games just to get you to your actual skill level it is still very much flawed. Disclaimer on that last line: I realize Challengers will get there in a few days tops, this is more about people who are Gold-Plat level.

50Shades0fTryndaSep 25, 20171 votes

Correction: you lose 2/4 of the game by matchmaking system, in theory, in practice just some "luckers" more some luckers(boosted) less.

about those 800 . i have noticed myself that after 5 th promo in a row for gold 5 last season , i have seen that i was probably matched witch better chances than enemy team,statisticaly..mybe im wrong but it seems thats some goal for riot, give us XX games and then you can go up, ofc if you have skill

sorry for interuption

50Shades0fTryndaSep 25, 20171 votes

that was mybe true for elo system which also felt alot more fair to me , but in this you just get harder games just as soon you start wining, harder in this case means your games will be more unfair , just ask anyone who knows something about mmr... it goes higher leaving your real rank behind(to high ), and thats why we have platinums and golds in silver games... SYSTEM IS OBVIOUSLY OPENED FOR MANIPULATIONS , open your eyes

StraconyOct 2, 20171 votes

Erm no, as it was stated by other player here: "However those theories only matter in a vacuum where all games are equal like I said before."

The Myth that 50% win rate = balenced matchmaking is completely false.

I'm going to use Overwatch as my example because quite honestly it was so blatant in doing this. No matter how you or anyone else played in overwatch, NO MATTER WHAT, you could go into anyones profile and litrally see a 50%, pretty much equal in terms of win/loss. If you were over 50% for a brief time, the game would garantee you a set of games to perfectly put you back at 50% and vice versa. Obv this is great for bad players, keeps then playing, makes them feel like they are actually helpfull when in fact they are not and having the carefully selected team carry you without trying.

But it sucks for those good players trying to climb, because each game became a struggle to drag your team kicking and screaming to the finish line.

Overwatch (don't know about now) but Overwatch HAD a FORCED 50% win rate.

It was not by coincidence that I would have won a game by doing everything i could to carry for then the next set of losses be because I have Hanzo and Widowmaker mains who refuse to change and could not hit a tied up elephant from a meter away.

Sounds familiar?

League does the exact same thing. It's an illusion of a balanced game this 50% BS. if all games where actually fair there would not be consistant games with trolls, I'm talking easily 50% of the games you have will have players who don't belong in the ELO they are in, players who have no right to go into ranked just because they hit level 30, smurf(account boosters), trolls & feeders, Afk's and disco nunu's.

for as much as I don't think the system is as bad as overwatch, i still believe it tries to give you a weaker version of a forced 50% win rate.

as on the topic of ELO boosters, They climb because they know how to abuse the system and are way way way way way above the adverage player.

It still does not make it right or fair on those who are actually actively trying to be a possitive team player and a good one too.

50Shades0fTryndaSep 23, 20171 votes

bronze silver and gold matched together (especially in promo) , thats probably the main(and could be the only ) reason why it feels hard to climb.

one doesn't know what to expect from each and every game in his rank , will it be gold zed main vs yasuo bronze on mid or something more reasonable... will it be a stable game of skill competition or 0 10 top in 15 minutes...

GirlBrainsSep 24, 20171 votes

Talk about it, bronze silver and gold is the worst possible thing that could happen because the bronzie feeds the gold and its gg for everyone.

50Shades0fTryndaSep 25, 20171 votes

you just revealed another problem of it .

There are the same rules for low ranks as for high ranks in matchmaking, but the skill raise is much more obvious in silver than in platinum or diamond for each division ... so does it make any sense at all?

iAmUrNightMareMay 30, 20191 votes

its the only reason its hard to climb

JbelsSep 23, 20175 votes

MMR: It just works! [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Garlic ButterSep 23, 20175 votes

Riot has commented on the past that is exactly how the mmr system works for promotions. You are placed at overwhelming disadvantage (the system is SURE you are going to lose the match, based on your past consistent performance) intentionally, this is done to both give you personally a real challenge to improve your team work skills and personal ability to carry a game and CHANGE/prove yourself. This is why people with a 75-80+% win rate climb quickly because the system can't calculate them effectively. (They constantly win games the algorithm thinks they will lose).

The system is built intentionally to give you a 49-51% win ratio with promos working a bit differently.

Essentially you have to game the system (and those that do do so usually without realizing that is what they are doing).

The fact you both were unaware this system was in place and experiencing the effects shows you fall into neither category and thus for you the system is working perfectly as intended. Just like human's real life social systems! ('Personhood' 'Money/Economics' 'Government(the class/caste system)') overcome it so you can overcome it everywhere if you want!

Please not the system heavily favors positive reinforcement of the 'personhood system' to succeed and climb the latter (you must play the team work game and follow the personhood social system explicitly, the rules are NOT arbitrary they are present because they ARE what work, throughly 100s of thousands of years of the systems refinement).

When you have loads of personal effectiveness (effective practice/understanding + honed ability) and are naturally or consciously following the 'personhood' contract system you will excel, both in (human social) life and this game. But be aware the personhood contract system has deep flaws that inhibit your ability to be self sufficient/survival when away from society or with the 'wrong' group of human animals (and can impede intimate relationships terribly.).

+s and -s with every system of interaction.

50Shades0fTryndaSep 23, 20173 votes

yes, economics system also works as intended, mostly giving even more to those who have plenty and taking from those who have very little ..instead of working correspondingly to natural laws of balance of some kind .Great example you made, just not the kind that you would expect.

back to the topic But the point is, as much as it seem to be logical to give a strong handycap to a promo player, its also very frustrating to play a match that doesnt have anything to do with the player's position , but is instead a 3,4 steps higher in skill compared to matches that one had just before... and i would also like to add it is very demeaning for each and every player in such situation: So now the main question : DID RIOT REALLY MADE THIS SYSTEM TO TEST SOMEONES SKILL IN A DEEPER LEVEL OR TO MAKE PEOPLE EVEN MORE ADDICTED TO THE GAME FOR ITS OWN PROFIT ? Is it the black or white, thats the real dilema, since Riot guys try to give us an image as if they care for players and on other side they made a system which frustrates tens of thousands of players each day, without them even knowing the real cause

P.S. i do not know a single competition game which has such twisted system , if you are 1000th you dont fight against 500 th until you get close enought, but in Lol is all mixed together ... bronze 1 silver 3 and gold 5 in a single game, come one ,use a common sense people , it has nothing to do with "you must play the team work game and follow the personhood social system explicitly" ! its overskilled vs underskilled in more than 60% of the games . kappa

LXIISep 24, 20171 votes

Addressing just the P.S portion. I can't agree more. If someone is 1000th I could see maybe playing against 950-900 to progress their rank to 999th. But it's insane that to move to Gold 4 you have to beat Gold 1 - Plat 4 while simultaneously having lower skilled players.

To make it worse, you ~~might even be~~ are usually the only person in promos. So Riot has just doomed 4 other people to a loss just because 1 guy is in an arbitrary promotional series.

GayFluffyUnicornSep 24, 20171 votes

i wish promos would give me better enemies instead of worse teammates.

TRSproSep 24, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Garlic Butter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4fqyisXm,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-09-23T14:53:17.825+0000)

Riot has commented on the past that is exactly how the mmr system works for promotions. You are placed at overwhelming disadvantage (the system is SURE you are going to lose the match, based on your past consistent performance) intentionally, this is done to both give you personally a real challenge to improve your team work skills and personal ability to carry a game and CHANGE/prove yourself. This is why people with a 75-80+% win rate climb quickly because the system can't calculate them effectively. (They constantly win games the algorithm thinks they will lose).

The system is built intentionally to give you a 49-51% win ratio with promos working a bit differently.

Essentially you have to game the system (and those that do do so usually without realizing that is what they are doing).

The fact you both were unaware this system was in place and experiencing the effects shows you fall into neither category and thus for you the system is working perfectly as intended. Just like human's real life social systems! ('Personhood' 'Money/Economics' 'Government(the class/caste system)') overcome it so you can overcome it everywhere if you want!

Please not the system heavily favors positive reinforcement of the 'personhood system' to succeed and climb the latter (you must play the team work game and follow the personhood social system explicitly, the rules are NOT arbitrary they are present because they ARE what work, throughly 100s of thousands of years of the systems refinement).

When you have loads of personal effectiveness (effective practice/understanding + honed ability) and are naturally or consciously following the 'personhood' contract system you will excel, both in (human social) life and this game. But be aware the personhood contract system has deep flaws that inhibit your ability to be self sufficient/survival when away from society or with the 'wrong' group of human animals (and can impede intimate relationships terribly.).

+s and -s with every system of interaction.

Can you link to where riot said they intentionally stack odds in promos?

Laughing FishSep 23, 20174 votes

https://media.tenor.com/images/9d128554bf3825d75c48e302976ef2a4/tenor.gif

LichKing234Sep 23, 20174 votes

omg someone tried to down vote the fish

Laughing FishSep 23, 20175 votes

http://i.imgur.com/nqnhZzZ.gif[/img]

LichKing234Sep 24, 20172 votes

yes oh mighty fish

Big Ol Idiot ManSep 24, 20171 votes

Oh shit, the lord has graced me with his presence. I'm not prepared...SOMEONE GET MY KNEELING SLACKS. PLEASE.

sketchy1Sep 23, 20172 votes

Welcome to the league!

Meet ChaosSep 23, 20172 votes

I think i'm at 54% winrate at Plat 1 right now. I got there by playing very casually once i hit Platinum. It's surprising how one can climb easier when not grinding

GayFluffyUnicornSep 24, 20171 votes

Yeah state of mind is a very important aspect. I for example when on a losing streak just keep playing and losing sometimes when i have time for it 10 games all the way down two divisions lower with completely destroyed mmr. Just to get back in the same amount of games again. Grinding is really really bad and even worse when it's a habit of yours.

RaiyzaSep 23, 20172 votes

That's why i stopped at gold5. I can't handle the stupidity that Riot created. Even in my normal games, the matchmaking is horrendous. I'm not going to give myself horrid stress for something I have no control over.

Go look at my op.gg. look at the game that I played Draven. We had a non ranked Nasus , still in provisional games, against a plat 5 Shen. He got ANNIHLATED. He ended up ragequitting because he couldn't do anything in lane.

elon wątrobaSep 24, 20171 votes

Yeah, during that season I just finished my promos and stopped playing ranked games.

Ahri BakaSep 23, 20172 votes

UGHHHHH at least better than having someone who's unranked on your time .... I had 4 unrankeds today and lost 3 of the matches , couldn't carry anymore because 0/16 in 20 mins in unbearable , there must be something done like having unranked people to play againt each other , I'm done with this

Zephyrous XSep 23, 20171 votes

i feel bad man i got to plat in like a week :(

50Shades0fTryndaSep 23, 20174 votes

my friend also got to plat in a week, he remained the same guy, the same player , but had fallen to silver and ever since he cant get higher than silver 2, he is also one of the most positive most calm and most friendly guys i know, not just on lol but in real life too . . you are boosted mate, just as he was back then on the start of the season and just as many others who got a strong handicap instead of being given the chance to compete fairly.. FAIRLY do you understand the word people , FAIRLY , thats the thing that misses around here in League of legends ranking

I don't doubt your skills, but there are also many other skilled players dancing around in silver even thought they deserve better . And i'm not talking about myself at all.

Theres a twisted problem and those who got up without almost any trouble cant really accept it

P.S. i myself also experienced a slight boost, 2 ranks up, i won almost every game by "just playing" and then after a month magic turned off

DisembarkSep 24, 20171 votes

What gets you higher is consistency. When you say there are "better players" stuck in silver they probably have peaks that resemble diamond players, but lows that resemble bronze players. You probably don't see them enough to be like "damn, he's CONSISTENTLY playing like a plat player over 100 games but just can't climb".

Or maybe when they play their main champ/main role, they play at a Plat level, but they love switching roles/playing random things which makes their rank lower than if they ONLY played that one role/champ.

For example, my cousin "1 tricks" katarina and easily gets to plat. However, he's "stuck" in Silver 2 on his other account but that's because he plays shit like ADC/top and still hard-stomps whenever he plays Katarina.

VigilenteSep 24, 20171 votes

Yea solo queue sucks. League of legends is meant to be like ranked flex full 5 man queue. Only then, will the ranked system be fair imo. That's what riot was trying to do with dynamic last year.