Give me a legitimate reason why Riven is broken, OP

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Really? She's pretty damn strong early,

Yes.

scales well into mid,

Absolutely.

scales well into late game.

Nope. Riven falls off late game, her winrate lowers the longer the game goes on: http://champion.gg/champion/Riven

She has issues teamfighting in some situations and I suppose deep late game 6 item build carries can shred her, unless she flashes combos them first.

No, she just has issues team fighting in general. She doesn't really function as a frontline, she's a melee assassin with no blinks other than her flash, no stealth, or easy wallhops, she has to flank, flash, or play very smart to actually reach your backline in a team fight. Riven is an early/mid game carry who excells in skirmishes.

In small fights, 3v3 or smaller, Riven is extremely strong and does very well, but she is simply too squishy and too direct for anything larger to work in her favour reliably.

My point is she has no real point in the game that can be exploited. Irelia and Nasus are weak very early on, Caitlyn and Tristana have the odd mid game lul, Lee Sin falls off late game.

But she really does. She falls off lategame like Lee does, but aside from that, because she has to be such an aggressive laner early due to her role as an early/mid game carry, her early game is actually pretty easy to exploit for the jungler.

One good gank can set her behind without ceding dragon pressure, depending on who you are jungling against. You don't need to do anything more than damage her, if she loses kill pressure, she loses lane in most cases.

And how is she helpless w/o her Q? If her Q is on CD she can just stun > shield + dash away.

Most other fighters and especially carries have no trouble killing a Riven that doesn't have her Q. It's where the bulk of her mobility and damage come from. (Damage in the form of her passive and timer reset, partially) Her shield lasts only a second and her stun even less, she builds essentially glass cannon, if you catch her without her Q and she didn't use it to put a lot of damage, she's actually very easy to kill.

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Yes.

Absolutely.

Nope. Riven falls off late game, her winrate lowers the longer the game goes on: http://champion.gg/champion/Riven

No, she just has issues team fighting in general. She doesn't really function as a frontline, she's a melee assassin with no blinks other than her flash, no stealth, or easy wallhops, she has to flank, flash, or play very smart to actually reach your backline in a team fight. Riven is an early/mid game carry who excells in skirmishes.

In small fights, 3v3 or smaller, Riven is extremely strong and does very well, but she is simply too squishy and too direct for anything larger to work in her favour reliably.

But she really does. She falls off lategame like Lee does, but aside from that, because she has to be such an aggressive laner early due to her role as an early/mid game carry, her early game is actually pretty easy to exploit for the jungler.

One good gank can set her behind without ceding dragon pressure, depending on who you are jungling against. You don't need to do anything more than damage her, if she loses kill pressure, she loses lane in most cases.

Most other fighters and especially carries have no trouble killing a Riven that doesn't have her Q. It's where the bulk of her mobility and damage come from. (Damage in the form of her passive and timer reset, partially) Her shield lasts only a second and her stun even less, she builds essentially glass cannon, if you catch her without her Q and she didn't use it to put a lot of damage, she's actually very easy to kill.

Lee Sin falls off because if you build full damage on him he's highly liable to get blown up. Riven can builds full damage and does perfectly fine.

You say her weakness is he tendancy to play aggressive, so the jungler has to exploit it. First of all Riven is a pain to gank to being with since she has 4 dashes a shield and can stun both the laner and jungler. Also a big problem with Riven is it's extremely easy to recover on her. She thrives in those mid game skirmishes where she can just nab a triple kill cleaning up with her ult.

Also having to rely on your jungler is bs. I'm talking from a 1 on 1 scenario there is no time her enemy laner can truly exploit her. She just has so many tools and a rather high margin for error. Largely because she has no damn resource.

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Lee Sin falls off because if you build full damage on him he's highly liable to get blown up. Riven can builds full damage and does perfectly fine.

Lee Sin has the option to build two or more defensive items, is innately tankier, and has more utility than Riven.

She is just as likely to get blown up in a fight as Lee Sin.

You say her weakness is he tendancy to play aggressive,

No, that's one weakness, and it's not a tendency, it's a requirement.

so the jungler has to exploit it.

No, no, I said so the jungler can exploit it, if he chooses to. That's a different statement entirely.

First of all Riven is a pain to gank to being with since she has 4 dashes

Which are locked at 450 movespeed and in total move her about the same distance as Jax's leap strike. Woo.

a shield and can stun both the laner and jungler.

So you both got to melee and she took damage, probably burned her flash. If the laner doesn't try to dive her the lane has probably been won. Riven's laning phase is extremely volatile, and one early mistake or some free damage can cost her the entire lane.

Also a big problem with Riven is it's extremely easy to recover on her.

Nope.

She thrives in those mid game skirmishes where she can just nab a triple kill cleaning up with her ult.

She only thrives in them if she's ahead enough to be valuable in them. Stealing a few kills with her ult might get her enough gold to be somewhat useful, but probably not as useful as whoever she stole that gold from, unless it's like, Pantheon jungle or someone else she actually does outscale.

Also having to rely on your jungler is bs.

I never said you had to. Having an option available is not the same as having to rely on it. That's twisting an opportunity into an ultimatum.

I'm talking from a 1 on 1 scenario there is no time her enemy laner can truly exploit her.

It didn't come off that way, since you mentioned lategame, and laning is over by then, it seemed as though you were saying that at no phase in the game is Riven weak, which is untrue.

Saying that she has no windows of vulnerability in lane is also untrue, though. Everything she does is tied to her Q, and she's a very interactive laner. Early game in particular, assuming she has 15% CDR from a specialized rune page and the mastery tree her Q's CD is still 10 seconds, I suppose it does depend to some extent who you're using, but most laners she doesn't counter can exploit that, even if not be actively all-inning her, they can use the window to get ahead in farm, control the wave, or get some free damage on her if they're ranged. Most of the laners without this avenue available to them outscale Riven anyway, and get to play the 'survive and be more relevant' game, the onnus is on Riven to win lane in most cases. The exception again being someone like Pantheon who falls off harder than either her or Lee Sin late game.

She just has so many tools and a rather high margin for error. Largely because she has no damn resource.

She has one of the lowest margins for error in top lane due to how terrible her sustain and bases are. Falling behind in hp or potions early can be crippling, if she loses one trade it can actually be a huge set back. If she had a resource which limited her ability to cast her spells she'd actually be quite bad.

I looked you up out of curiosity, and you don't play her, so I'd suggest actually getting in there and learning the champion, it can give you a lot of insight into a champion's weaknesses. So far your posts have come off as simply glossing over hers while emphasising or even exaggerating her strengths, which fair enough is easy to do to a champion you don't play as, and I've done it in the past. I used to have the single most throbbing hate boner in the universe for Lee Sin until I picked him up for a while.

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Lee Sin has the option to build two or more defensive items, is innately tankier, and has more utility than Riven.

She is just as likely to get blown up in a fight as Lee Sin.

No, that's one weakness, and it's not a tendency, it's a requirement.

No, no, I said so the jungler can exploit it, if he chooses to. That's a different statement entirely.

Which are locked at 450 movespeed and in total move her about the same distance as Jax's leap strike. Woo.

So you both got to melee and she took damage, probably burned her flash. If the laner doesn't try to dive her the lane has probably been won. Riven's laning phase is extremely volatile, and one early mistake or some free damage can cost her the entire lane.

Nope.

She only thrives in them if she's ahead enough to be valuable in them. Stealing a few kills with her ult might get her enough gold to be somewhat useful, but probably not as useful as whoever she stole that gold from, unless it's like, Pantheon jungle or someone else she actually does outscale.

I never said you had to. Having an option available is not the same as having to rely on it. That's twisting an opportunity into an ultimatum.

It didn't come off that way, since you mentioned lategame, and laning is over by then, it seemed as though you were saying that at no phase in the game is Riven weak, which is untrue.

Saying that she has no windows of vulnerability in lane is also untrue, though. Everything she does is tied to her Q, and she's a very interactive laner. Early game in particular, assuming she has 15% CDR from a specialized rune page and the mastery tree her Q's CD is still 10 seconds, I suppose it does depend to some extent who you're using, but most laners she doesn't counter can exploit that, even if not be actively all-inning her, they can use the window to get ahead in farm, control the wave, or get some free damage on her if they're ranged. Most of the laners without this avenue available to them outscale Riven anyway, and get to play the 'survive and be more relevant' game, the onnus is on Riven to win lane in most cases. The exception again being someone like Pantheon who falls off harder than either her or Lee Sin late game.

She has one of the lowest margins for error in top lane due to how terrible her sustain and bases are. Falling behind in hp or potions early can be crippling, if she loses one trade it can actually be a huge set back. If she had a resource which limited her ability to cast her spells she'd actually be quite bad.

I looked you up out of curiosity, and you don't play her, so I'd suggest actually getting in there and learning the champion, it can give you a lot of insight into a champion's weaknesses. So far your posts have come off as simply glossing over hers while emphasising or even exaggerating her strengths, which fair enough is easy to do to a champion you don't play as, and I've done it in the past. I used to have the single most throbbing hate boner in the universe for Lee Sin until I picked him up for a while.

Meh I disagree with Lee having more ultilty in teamfights aside from his Insec kick which you can out play, if Lee builds two tank items his kill pressure isn't quite as high, but yes he more durable then a Riven. I think comparing Riven to Jax is silly because Jax is weak early and scales into a freakin monster late game.

Everything else you stated makes for a great argument, but you still having covered my primary gripe with her. SHE IS RESOURCELESS. I see no excuse for that, with all the tools her kit provides. Once again only a few tanks have two forms of hard CC outside of an ultimate CD. Yes she lacks sustain but can just shield the brunt of the damage she takes anyway. Most Riven's build lifesteal at some point also anyway.

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Meh I disagree with Lee having more ultilty in teamfights

Fair enough, we can disagree.

aside from his Insec kick which you can out play, if Lee builds two tank items his kill pressure isn't quite as high, but yes he more durable then a Riven. I think comparing Riven to Jax is silly because Jax is weak early and scales into a freakin monster late game.

I didn't initiate the comparison, I just brought it back because someone else I was discussing this with seemed to only take issue with offense based defensive scaling when Riven does it.

Everything else you stated makes for a great argument,

Thank you, I try to be logical and sometimes it gets through to people.

but you still having covered my primary gripe with her. SHE IS RESOURCELESS.

Ah. Well, fair enough I guess.

I see no excuse for that, with all the tools her kit provides. Once again only a few tanks have two forms of hard CC outside of an ultimate CD.

In context it makes more sense when you also mention that together both CCs when perfectly layered only last 1.2 seconds, and have a melee range.

Riven's CC puts herself in the center of the action and in a lot of danger. She is a skill shot. I think that's neat.

Yes she lacks sustain but can just shield the brunt of the damage she takes anyway. Most Riven's build lifesteal at some point also anyway.

At some point, but only once the lane has been decided in most cases, since rushing a vamp scepter on Riven is a good way of saying "I surrender", due to the lack of combat stats.

My justification for Riven's lack of resource is simple; if her ability to cast her abilities constantly were gated by something like that, she would simply be very weak.

If they buffed her abilities or stats to the point that she could work with the limitations of a mana bar she'd actually become very obnoxious. Oh, one more thing:

aside from his Insec kick which you can out play,

Riven can most certainly be outplayed. :p

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Fair enough, we can disagree.

I didn't initiate the comparison, I just brought it back because someone else I was discussing this with seemed to only take issue with offense based defensive scaling when Riven does it.

Thank you, I try to be logical and sometimes it gets through to people.

Ah. Well, fair enough I guess.

In context it makes more sense when you also mention that together both CCs when perfectly layered only last 1.2 seconds, and have a melee range.

Riven's CC puts herself in the center of the action and in a lot of danger. She is a skill shot. I think that's neat.

At some point, but only once the lane has been decided in most cases, since rushing a vamp scepter on Riven is a good way of saying "I surrender", due to the lack of combat stats.

My justification for Riven's lack of resource is simple; if her ability to cast her abilities constantly were gated by something like that, she would simply be very weak.

If they buffed her abilities or stats to the point that she could work with the limitations of a mana bar she'd actually become very obnoxious. Oh, one more thing:

Riven can most certainly be outplayed. :p

I think she can be balanced around some form of resource. Her Q should be free of cost most definitely, but her shield, stun and perhaps even ultimate should cost her something!

At High Gold and above when Riven mains learn not just mash their keys anymore and know how to use their abilities wisely she can be just a royal pain. Her layered CC last only 1.2 seconds you say, but that's more then enough to destroy most targets during the laning phase. That damn brush trick they always do when they hide in the middle brush until you get into range and just flash on top you and melt your face off.

There are plenty of other resouceless champs but there kits aren't nearly as loaded.

Garen is straightforward and choregraphed as hell. Very similar to Riven (way more oppressive), but you can work around his Fury bar. Her Fury is a joke....but she's much like Garen very straightforward nothing fancy about her. You can work around his Fury bar also, he uses it to heal and becomes far weaker, you can then zone him from minions. Also very straightforward. Ferocity is technically a resource. Needing 5 to access his strongest abilities. You can zone him from minions so he can't stack it forcing him to rely on his Bola. Also just a straightforward assassin. Weak in lane, nothing fancy about her. A reset machine. ...........Ok Yas is kind of BS, his kit is super loaded. Knocking off his shield is just a chore since it refills so damn fast. But at least he's not very strong early on.

With the expection of Renekton none of those guys have any hard CC, Rengar's is situational and Shyvana's is lol and Yas as I stated is BS. As you said you can out play Riven, doing so is very fun in fact, but Riven has way too much out play potential to be gated by absolutely nothing.