So I was looking at Old Karma

Bârd·Oct 27, 2015·116 votes·7,750 views

She seems like she was an interesting champion with meaningful decisions to make with Mantra, choosing between an AOE heal, a powerful slow/speedup, or an AOE nuke.

So they reworked her into a Q bot...

why.

217 Comments

Ariel the CruelOct 27, 201549 votes

Passive Her passive was unintuitive. Getting stronger by losing health punishes opponents for doing what they're supposed to. Olaf Tryndamere Irelia

skill levels Having 6 ranks in her normal skills instead of 5 resulted in having to make 1-5 weaker to compensate; so that the rank 6 would balance out to other champions' rank 5. This resulted in unusual power curves and made for an unsatisfying mid game. Jayce

Q Having a damage skill the healed was confusing. It resulted in a false choice where the ability could never achieve it's full value. Sona power cord heal (kinda). If the skill were reasonably able to achieve full value every time, it would have been OP as F. The skill was designed to be a choice between the 2; not to simply empower the first effect.

W It was confusing for other players who didn't know what the skill did. And Her players asked for it to be changed. We asked for it to do damage to the target when we attached it to an enemy. As for skill knowledge: keep reading.

E They recognized "shield bombing" as being the only thing people actually liked about karma. And despite them saying it was inherently toxic to damage people by shielding yourself, they would try to keep it. . . . Or decide they still don't like it later on and just remove it. also: Ryze Sion Nautilus

R Karma's Psuedo-ult was what made her unique. Heimerdinger Being able to upgrade her skills also meant they had to weaken the base skill to compensate. Being able to upgrade 2 skills meant they had to weaken them twice. This only served to compound the problem from having 6 rank skills. . And apparently having entirely new skills with separate cooldowns isn't as good: Nidalee Jayce Elise

Popularity Karma was almost never seen. Most players didn't even know she existed. So glad she was free to play TWICE* in her 3(?) year existence. She was free during her release week (back when they did that), and 1 time after. Then she was removed from the F2P rotation . Currently, Yorik is the only other champion to get removed from the F2P rotation; and he had a few years to get established first.

Required knowledge Players didn't know what she did. Hm..... You disavow her existence. Remove her from F2P. And in general try to avoid anyone knowing about her. . . . And you wonder why only her players knew what she did?

Theme She had no theme. She was just some diplomat on a battle field spouting about balance and duality. Ya.......... Many of us would call that a theme. A central concept. A thematic Niche. An Identity. A very clear and unique one at that! But... What do the players know. . ?

Viability Karma was intended to be a support. She was one of the weakest supports at the time. She had relatively low base values (excluding shield) and scaled hard with items. . . . At a time when supports would finish a 50 minute game with Mobi boots and a shurelia's.

Circumstantial BS

Morello admitted that he hated her kit from the beginning.
Scarizrd admitted he didn't play Karma
Quinsoo was working on Karma before Scarizard took over.
Supposedly everything they tried on Karma resulted in complete and total failure.
- What they tried is still unknown.
Karma was Riot's first attempt at a "relaunch" (now referred to as a "Sion level rework")
- Riot's only feedback was through random player surveys that no one has ever acknowledged seeing getting.
- Even after the community backlash, Riot continued to make changes that contradicted public community feedback.
- - Though they did give back her fans. Kinda. In her traditional skin dance. After a few hundred pages of backlash in the announcement thread.

ZedexOct 27, 20152 votes

Do you keep all this text pasted in a notepad just to scour the forums about your useless Karma facts..

If she was still the same she was then, she'd get decimated by todays champs. She needed the update, and regardless of the fact that a lot of you disagree with it (because shes not the unfair pseudo-wtf-does-she-do support that gimmicked you wins!

She was NEVER good. She was only EVER good at twisted treeline because her utility and damage power rocketed when she snowballed.

I am so very annoyed of seeing these "mains" of a champion that got improved 100-fold trying to shit talk riots hard work and effort they put into relaunching a mess of a champion that had no place in the game, and still wouldn't if she had not been reworked.

I only ever saw her viable and doing well when my 2 close friends and I would play Ranked Twisted Treeline (the old treeline, before the relic and the altars. So yes, the shitty treeline) and she would shield boost our Garen and Riven, and just..Well thats about it actually. She had a deceptive amount of damage in every game we were in, and most of our opponents complained about Karma being broken. (That or Riven being broken, guess some things don't change there)

7thHeavenOct 27, 201517 votes

Karma is not support, people put her in support role because she got support kit. In karma spotlight, phreak said she is utility solo lane mage

Ariel the CruelOct 27, 201515 votes

No. I don't.

She wasn't "updated", she was "relaunched". They basically replaced her with another champion. And not a champion that the community wanted.

She was unpopular. She was removed from the F2P rotation. She had her strengths. She was an early game lane bully and a late game support. The closest we have to that now is Lulu. As for not being good: she was used twice in the OGN. And was considered for one of the NA teams (I forget which) but the ADC didn't like her (which is kinda important for a support).

Skarma could be 100 times better. I'm not going to dispute that. The complaint is that Skarma is effectively a different champion. They didn't even keep her theme intact like they did for Sion And not only did they replace her, they used blatantly contradicted excuses, ignored community feedback, and put in years of effort that they can't tell us anything about (except that nothing worked). It's a giant slap in the face.

Also, not everyone who dislikes the change is a "karma main".

Red RyuOct 27, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4MGqcxr3,comment-id=001700000001,timestamp=2015-10-27T17:21:18.883+0000)

No. I don't.

She wasn't "updated", she was "relaunched". They basically replaced her with another champion. And not a champion that the community wanted.

She was unpopular. She was removed from the F2P rotation. She had her strengths. She was an early game lane bully and a late game support. The closest we have to that now is Lulu. As for not being good: she was used twice in the OGN. And was considered for one of the NA teams (I forget which) but the ADC didn't like her (which is kinda important for a support).

Skarma could be 100 times better. I'm not going to dispute that. The complaint is that Skarma is effectively a different champion. They didn't even keep her theme intact like they did for Sion And not only did they replace her, they used blatantly contradicted excuses, ignored community feedback, and put in years of effort that they can't tell us anything about (except that nothing worked). It's a giant slap in the face.

Also, not everyone who dislikes the change is a "karma main".

I played her before the rework and after.

I actually like her more because she didn't feel weird while having a kit I needed farm to do anything with. Her old W felt awful unless people knew what it did, and even then it wasn't that strong. Interesting sure, but the skill itself did not feel that impactful even when I got the rare person who knew what it did.

I did like shield explosion, but I feel like they moves that all onto her Q, which is why the values when powered up are as high as they are now.

I can see why people liked her old passive I guess, I main Lucario in smash so I get the whole getting more powerful with Aura/taking damage etc stuff. I don't have a problem with it when it is done well, Lucario imo in smash 4 is overtuned with it not really toxic in itself. I treat it like damage in Ultra's in Street Fighter 4. The issue is bigger in a league setting when it affects her so much in terms of balance. She gained free AP for losing AP, this is more of a problem here when it didn't define her when it was just a stat buff. I guess there is the whole timing thing, aka Soraka Wish style, but it made her a nightmare to balance if you also consider her mantras at level 1 and her 6 skill abilities.

New Karma is a lot easier to fine tune and her passive actually affects her kit in a meaningful skillful way for taking more risks or being more active.

I only like her in Middle lane these days, she can work bot but she is in the same sense for me as Annie where I could play them bot lane but I'm not a fan of it over other picks.

I liked it when they reworked her, I get the binary part. I do only half agree with the mostly R>Q part. Yes for Poke and raw damage you want that. I have done R>W when I needed to support my team more or needed the health. I have done R>E in a team fight when I needed to give a lot of people distance and safety from AoE damage like a Kennen Ult. That was more useful than R>Q. I agree R>Q is the better choice in most situations, I strongly disagree that it's almost always what you should do on her.

I like her a lot more as she is now, as a Karma main my main issue was removing her fans. I hate that a lot and still want them back on her model outside of the dance.

But overall I do enjoy her far more than old karma and I agree her old kit was a huge balance issue in a lot of areas.

Ariel the CruelOct 28, 20156 votes

I should emphasize, my complaint is not balance. Skarma is in a decent spot [finally]. And Karma wasn't without her challenges (the 2 charge ult was a fair point). It's the scale to which they made changes, the complete lack of community feedback, the BS excuses, and the utter lack of accountability to what lead to their excuses. And then they continue to shit on her new fans (kek) by making unwanted and unexplained (or poorly explained) changes for no apparent reason.

Skarma is not a bad Champion. But she's a completely different champion. In that sense, the "relaunch" was a failure in every possible way.

ihaveapotionOct 28, 20152 votes

I wasnt a karma main, i was a taric main and have been for years and the gutting and destruction of karma really hurt my opinion of riot and my trust in them, especially where my coin is. over the years all these "reworks" have made me more and more reluctant to the point of now being absolutely done with buying rp because i know now they even refuse to fucking give refunds for content that you payed for being changed, think trundle. Thats not a joke.

OneSmoothDudeOct 28, 20153 votes

Looking at her skills in isolation like that is faulty practice. You need to look at her kit as a whole.

...I say this as someone who didn't know past Karma well and doesn't know present Karma well. But you're going about this the wrong way.

Ariel the CruelOct 28, 20154 votes

I was going mostly through reasons they changed everything. The list above isn't limited to just her QWER.

ihaveapotionOct 28, 20152 votes

as for the "weakest support", thats completely untrue. She was a fantastic support she only had a slightly higher learning curve compared to the one button press supports.

ForeverLaxxOct 27, 201524 votes

Why did the change her, you ask? As I recall, the reason was because of her low pick rate and general "meh" attitude about the champion (EDIT: This attitude and pick rate was directly related to the fact that most people at the time were trying to force her into a starved support role -- I played her Top Lane to great success back in the day). I personally really liked the old Karma, in particular her gaining AP when losing HP mechanic that doesn't exist anymore. The entire point of the character was the juxtaposition of opposite forces, blending and balancing them into a single skill. A heal that could do damage, a shield that also did damage, gaining more potential when low on life; these things helped sell the kind of character she was billed as.

Unfortunately, they took her old tether (stronger effect rather than a change in nature) and applied it to all the reworked skills, so now nothing left of her old self remained.

She might be "more powerful", but she's also far less interesting and pretty much resembles every other skill-shot nuke + shield champion in the roster.

rinsujoOct 27, 201519 votes

And she's STILL never played.

Ariel the CruelOct 27, 201512 votes

Her play rate sky-rocketed the first 2 months after the rework. That was enough for Riot to call it a success.

. . . The fact that it happens with all reworked champions is irrelevant. As the the fact they continued to rework her multiple times over those 2 months.

Earl EulrichOct 27, 20153 votes

well - why would anyone want to play a generic shield/kite-support when there´s lulu that does everything just better...

Athenes LuluOct 27, 20154 votes

Because Karma actually had more raw damage and a legit lockdown that Lulu actually don't have.

But we'd still pick Lulu over Karma because Lulu's disengage is so much stronger and have so much more saving potential.

Earl EulrichOct 27, 20151 votes

not to mention Lulu´s engage (speed up the tank, than have him knockup everyone+slow) and counterengage (at least some short aoe-cc) are a lot stronger than Karma´s. Lulu just packs a lot more versatility and strengths in a similar kit. The only thing Karma excels at is running away from a single Champ and her early game dmg...which is annoying during laning, but falls of hard aftter the laning-phase once you really have to fight for objectives.

Athenes LuluOct 27, 20153 votes

Uh, if you are talking about speedboosting for engage, doesn't Karma has that as well, but on a 5-man scale?

Lulu's engage is more like "throw-all-the-buffs-on-the-tank" while Karma can do the engage part singlehandedly. On an engage scale, both are just as powerful, but Lulu is favored because it is so much stronger because teamwork OP.

On the flip side, Lulu can singlehandedly stop channels and anti-dive in general. Lulu is supposed to be the buffer support meanwhile Karma is on a more magelike kind of playstyle (as in do things alone).

Voluug13Oct 27, 20153 votes

You can achieve a better effect at MS boost with the coin line anyways. Scarma's MS buff not only uses her main damage source (Mantra) but also its extremely short (1.5s) and the shield is...well, downright pathetic. Old Karma had a 20/40% team haste, but it had a 85%+ uptime come lategame.

And Karma cant engage on a competent team either. RQ is shrugged off by the tanks, even when being a midlaner. W/RW is awful at engaging because delayed+bad range. RE is only good as a catch up mechanic (but as I said, there is coin for almost every support, included Lulu). Lulu having AoE hard CC makes it much better that anything Karma can do. Old karma could keep her team speed up for much more time that Scarma can. 2 mantra charges+W's 5s duration 6s cooldown mean a very fast team (and potentially a permaslowed enemy).

ForeverLaxxOct 27, 20157 votes

Because the role they forced her into can be done better and more reliably by older champions, and some newer ones in Lulu's case. Karma was the victim of many factors, and with Riot the way they are now, they're never going to go back and re-evaluate exactly how they messed her up. Stripped of her identity, stripped of her niche, and changed into a generic mage that has nothing valuable to justify picking her over someone else. Every reason they used to change her was a result of Riot themselves setting up the excuse. They kept her out of rotation just to say that no one played her or knew what she did, and is it any surprise that when you keep something hidden from player view that they don't know anything about it?

It's my belief that the original Karma was shipped in a state that only barely passed majority vote. Once those who disliked her were able to, they reworked her into what she is now by utilizing self-fulfilling prophecy tactics. Does it sound conspiratorial in this light? Sure, it does, but what other reason is there when those who worked on her admitted to never liking the old version, or never playing her, or outright ignoring and running changes counter to the feedback? So many who hated her had their hands on her rework, and if so many disliked her in the state she was released then why would she have been released?

Anyway, that's just my additional two cents on the matter. I've grown accustomed to the reworked Karma out of necessity, but that doesn't mean I enjoy what happened to her.

ZeranaOct 27, 201523 votes

A great mystery. They say shes more powerful now but they could have just buffed her by about 300 damage and would have accomplished the same thing. Or done a champion spotlight again. Or reworked some of the kit mechanics without removing them.

AutoreactiveCD4Oct 27, 20158 votes

Her main issue as I recall was she needed her teammates to know how to utilize her in order for her to be really effective. Riot kind of went back on this though starting with thresh's lantern, most of Bard's kit and some of Tahm Kench. They also loved that she could mid and support, then shoved her into support. And they acknowledged this as their intent when they took the damage off the ult shield.

Riot has really messed up with her. In my opinion, Karma fans have the most right to be angry over a champion's treatment.

Voluug13Oct 27, 20157 votes

Even back then there were some things like Orianna's ball and Zilean's Chronoshift.

She was ''bad'' (despite being carry twice in pro play) because the entire meta was against her. S2 was before the support rework, where support were 0cs wardbots, and Karma needed her AP/ManaReg/Cdr items to work properly. And in Midlane long range midlaners reigned supreme, which Karma was weak to (no mobility, low ranges, big mana costs). She was good with and against melee, which the S2 meta was unfavorable against.

SHe was a mage before being a support too, since she wasnt tanky or had free CC/utility.

Axis the DragonOct 27, 20153 votes

This was also way before Athene's overhaul, which would've helped her immensely imo

Voluug13Oct 27, 20152 votes

Actually Athene was added a couple of months before the Karma relaunch. I know because I played her with it, and it was glorious.

Axis the DragonOct 27, 20151 votes

I know - but at the time, Athene's gave less CDR iirc (10% vs 20% now)

If I'm not mistaken it gave less AP and more MR, though

Voluug13Oct 27, 20151 votes

Yeah, it was 15% I think, but with the cdr masteries plus other CDR items like DFG and Morellonomicon (IIRC) she could easily reach 40% cdr.

Axis the DragonOct 27, 20153 votes

True, but now she wouldn't even need all that

With just runes/masteries + pick one between Athene's / Morello, you reach 40% mad easy

Plus RoA gives even more AP and Mana now, and because of her limited range that's also an item I really liked on her

PykelOct 27, 20158 votes

i loved old karma :( like you said there was a lot more chose of what to ult on, plus full ap karma was just fun.

OverpoweredSoapOct 27, 20158 votes

Because her old kit was "toxic".

Besides the fact Riot messed with her old kit for like two patches (those two patches being the patches after her release) gave her like 2 or 3 bug fixes (which were mostly visual bugs.) and then never touched her again.

Riot never really tried to help her at all and then removed her from free week because they were going to rework her waaaay later on, and then was surprised that no one played her and no one knew what she did.

Karma's old kit required actual team work, if her kit was released today, more people would actually knew what the fuck she did and she'd considered a lot more strong than she used to be.

New Karma is kind of interesting but, she just doesn't feel unique.

Maximum MordeOct 27, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=The True Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4MGqcxr3,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-10-27T05:36:24.943+0000)

She seems like she was an interesting champion with meaningful decisions to make with Mantra, choosing between an AOE heal, a powerful slow/speedup, or an AOE nuke.

So they reworked her into a Q bot...

why.

Before the patch that took away mantra W and mantra E damage, her mantra was still a meaningful choice. Now it's pretty much Q or Bust most of the time.

Kitten of EvilOct 27, 20153 votes

This exactly. I might use RE about 5% of the time, and I virtually never use RW anymore. It used to be decent for single-target.

SociopathFriendOct 27, 20151 votes

I use R+W sometimes in midlane, it makes for a great sustain ability and if you're being tower dived R+W and then E suddenly makes you hella harder to kill and possibly traps the enemy under turret.

Kitten of EvilOct 27, 20152 votes

I could see it being useful in some cases, like where your jungler is nearby but not in lane yet, or if you're being tower-dived, the extra-duration snare might be helpful, and the healing is nice. But in general, RQ is going to be much more effective self-peel than RW because you don't have to stay close to the enemy, and RQ can peel multiple enemies.

Solidair3Oct 27, 20156 votes

But she didn't have to make meaningful decisions, which is why she was reworked. Because she could hold two charges of Mantra, there was a never a choice to be made. "which two do I want to use" is much less meaningful than "which one". It's also interesting that the more involved and precise she in in combat, the more choices she will have thanks to her passive.

And so, as a result of having the two-charge system, her spells couldn't actually be powerful even when mantra'd because she'd always be able to immediately follow up with a second cast of another spell.

New Karma has meaningful decisions in that she must choose which powerful spell upgrade she wants. Landing her full ult Q can actually kill a full health carry in one shot. Her W can heal her and root someone for an incredible duration. And her AoE shield is just impressive and powerful, one of the best disengage or even engage tools in the game, even just due to its flexibility.

Old Karma had one of the lowest winrates in the game, and was rarely played in the position she was created for, so when Riot remade her they decided to go with what the players wanted and made her more of a mage than a support.

Much as I liked old Karma myself, I do prefer new Karma because of her meaningful choices. As well, she is just as flexible position-wise as she was pre-rework, which is something I appreciate.

Sire HippingtonOct 27, 201512 votes

As some one who played alot old karma, i heavily disagree. Even with two charges, you often had to decide which, or more which not to manta, as you would usually use ~6 or more spells in a fight.

Also, new karma has a pretty easy choice, as it's rather easy to determain what spell to mandra in a given situation.

Ald karma had alot more decision by the fact that their skills harmed oppnents while helping allys. Do i shield my carry or do i use the shieldbomb on my frontline to nule their backline? Do i heal most of my team with Q but only hit 1 opponent, or do i land a nice aoe nuke but only heal one guy?

Her low range, her W and her lowish base hp made her positioning incredible curcial.

Her low winrate was because she had a lot meaningfull decisions, and because she was the first champ that really interacted with teammate. Her kit was ahead of her time. The only problems her old kit had was that she offered little counterplay if played well, and she was slightly undertuned with her 6 rank skills that ended up as strong as most 5 rank skills at that time., but those problems could have beein solved while preciving most of her kit, especially the duallity which is now totally gone.

OrbvOct 27, 20152 votes

Let's not be crazy about this...Old Karma had FAR more decisions than new Karma.

New Karma: Play defensively, shield your team Play Offensively, damage the enemy And if you need CC, mantra your root, which is also used as a bait.

I'm not saying New Karma isn't good, but I liked Old Karma significantly better.

Old Karma: Play **Defensively **--> Aoe Heal Allies with % health heal (GREAT on Tanks and low life allies) OR Shield and Ally (And no use mantra for high ratio shield) OR Speed up all allies in tether while slowing all enemies in tether (Portentially need Mantra). Play **Offensively **-> Use AoE Fans (No Mantra) to hit enemies, Use tether to Damage enemies (no Mantra), Aoe Bomb from a safe distance (Mantra).

What ability slows enemies, speeds up allies and damages enemies? (Orianna's W) What ability heals allies and damages enemies? (Nami's W) What ability shields and damages? (Lulu's E)

Her abilities were unique, so much that they used her uniqueness to design other, stronger champions. New Karma is surprisingly less team oriented. Her abilities are more selfish, with a partial exception of her E. Solo lane Karma is much better than Support Karma, which has ALWAYS been the case. But she was redone DESPITE this fact to make her a better support.

Ariel the CruelOct 27, 20155 votes

But she was redone DESPITE this fact to make her a better support.

Actually, they reworked her into a "utility mage" that "could go support" because that's how old Karma was used. Though old Karma's use patter was the result of super hard scaling and support role having about 1-2k gold as expendable income over the course of an entire game.

Kitten of EvilOct 27, 20151 votes

support role having about 1-2k gold as expendable income over the course of an entire game.

And being expected to spend over half of that on wards. Ugh don't remind me. I will say, the support meta-game has greatly improved since I started playing in S2.

137434Oct 27, 20154 votes

Half!!?!?? You clearly weren't warding enough. You probably ended your support games with greater than 0 cs too!!!!

God I do not miss those days at all.

Solidair3Oct 27, 20152 votes

Yes, she had more decisions, but they were less meaningful. That is my point.

1000angrybeesOct 27, 20153 votes

I just REALLY want to know why they felt the need to remove her mantra multi-shield AOE damage component from her kit. It actually was interesting and cool, and they just quite literally yanked it out for no reason.

LudovicoOct 27, 20155 votes

Because it had 0 counterplay.

Now I´m a huge advocator for the old Karma, but the shield-explosion would not be the reason I want her back. But you could simply deal massive chunks of dmg (or no dmg at all when behind), from a save distance. Just R+E the minion, that walks out of line, and towards your enemy.

KarbuncleOct 27, 201512 votes

{quoted}

Because it had 0 counterplay.

Now I´m a huge advocator for the old Karma, but the shield-explosion would not be the reason I want her back. But you could simply deal massive chunks of dmg (or no dmg at all when behind), from a save distance. Just R+E the minion, that walks out of line, and towards your enemy.

What exactly is wrong with a mage doing damage with their ultimate?

BiffoloOct 27, 20155 votes

Because hers isn't a true ultimate.

KarbuncleOct 27, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Because hers isn't a true ultimate.

Could you give an actual reason instead of spouting nonsense?

EROTIC RAID BOSSOct 27, 20152 votes

It doesn't have a meaningful Cd

Sire HippingtonOct 27, 20153 votes

early on it does, which is when shieldbomb would be an opressive mechanic

maikokkOct 27, 20157 votes

it isnt an ultimate. at all. ultimate abilities are unlocked level 6

Udyr Elise Nidalee Jayce Karma

pushing R doth not an ult make

AbyssphereOct 27, 20155 votes

{quoted}

it isnt an ultimate. at all. ultimate abilities are unlocked level 6

pushing R doth not an ult make

Ultimates are a lot more flexible than "abilities you unlock at level 6", especially as Nidalee's R used to unlock at level 6 - would you have considered it an ult then?

Mantra has a 45 second cooldown at rank 1. Even if it's unlocked before 6, it's an exceptional cooldown that deserves to be powerful. It's not at all comparable to transform champions, nor Udyr.

FantasySniperOct 27, 20153 votes

The damage bonus didn't compare with either of the other empowered abilities, so what's the point in it if it just spends power budget where no one wants it?

They made it shield a ton more, and even slightly reduced its CD and mana cost so it didn't feel you were trading something off if you used it instead of the massive nuke that is [Q] or incredible peeling/trading/CC tool that is [W].