Engage on him? Eat his ult, he plays back and shreds you now
Don't engage on him? He shreds you
You would like to think: "oh hey, I can itemize MR and Azir won't be a problem!" Then he just shreds you anyway. I don't think his kit is inherently broken but he needs nerfs that take away either his safety in fights or his burst.
Manwalrus23 votesPick Xerath/nid and win by killing him from range? Profit. Pick someone who can get over his wall (Fizz, Ekko, Katarina, Kassadin lissandra, zed, talon etc)? Win Don't fight him when he's near tower? Win Fight him when his E is down? Excellent Zone him? Success Use Morg shield sivir shield banshee's etc? Great Can I go on? Definitely
But yeah, Azir is definitely un-counterable.
SaltyToplaneGoat1 votesAnd the most important: bait his ult. Like, make so many feint attacks that he has to blow it and then you have a wonderful time window where he is left without his strongest defensive tool...
KenjiChan2518 votesAn an Azir main, I'll also add a few things -
Ziggs is also surprisingly strong against him if you're skilled, thanks to the range of his bombs and his kit.
Azir is also horrible early game. If you can catch him with his pants down during that time, he's pretty much done. Bait out either his Q or E, and also have your jungler collapse on him for good measure.
Also, never fight him close to tower. Seriously, I just ult people dumb enough to try into my tower and eliminate them.
E can also be bodyblocked. And suddenly, no escape or CC except for flash or ult, if either are up. Fun times.
Arctic pretty much covered everything else. Azir doesn't have easy escapes and is horrendously squishy. Once you know how his kit works, he's quite manageable to deal with.
It Hertz When IP1 votesFaced an Azir midlane for the first time as Kennen, didn't know how to fight him and gave FB. Our top laner told me to go aggressive early game, I decided "sure, why the hell not" and proceeded to beat his ass senseless every 1v1.
Divewing1 votesAdding one more, @ lol 2, once he's used q in lane, HE CANNOT MOVE THAT SOLDIER, typically it'll be in your face somewhere, but you can literally walk through it and start beating the shit out of him, best he can do there is bring up another soldier but between your 2 abilities and AAs you should win. This works all the way to 6 just gets somewhat harder when you have to factor in his E. God have mercy on him should he call out both soldiers and use q, especially if he wiffs it, that is free trading right there
Cindikle1 votesAzir is the Lee Sin of mages. He's good at everything not amazing at anything.
Xerath/Nid? Azir farms better and is more useful in teamfights and will bring more sustained damage. Nid has to go into melee to waveclear and Xerath will go OOM fast if he's over using his ability to wavlecear.
Azir wont be using his ult till he has to vs those champions. Some can be fairly easily dealt with by using Hourglass. Unless you're waiting for him to use abilities then go in on him. It means you're ignoring other targets like the ADC.
So champions who can out waveclear him are actually at a disadvantage if they happen to push a little too hard. A small mistakes gives him a huge opening to ult you into his tower and get a kill.
Assuming he's going to be in range with his E/R down. He can farm easily with his W/Q. His mana costs are not that punishing.
Only way to zone him is to have him camped by the jungler so he's scared to move or he messed up and fed you. Rest is a skill matchup. You can't factor "maybe they'll suck" into balance.
Those shields have long cooldowns and can be fairly easily baited by basic abilities.
Azir has soft counters, but he has so much going for him that no matter what you do better than him. He will do everything else better.
That's what this thread is about. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. Azir is a champion that you have to outplay/counter the player. Not the champion. Luckily he is a champion that requires some mechanical skill to use. But again. You can't balanced around "maybe he'll suck".
Mirage Seraph12 votesI just want them to change his Q to a purely repositioning tool. It's too bursty for his design. I don't think he's too strong, his early game, while safe, is impossible to get an advantage in unless your enemy mid laner is an idiot or a Yasuo. (Seriously.. half the time I win my lane with Azir is because the enemy mid laner has no idea how Azir works it feels like.) But back to the point. I feel his design should be more about DPS than burst.
His wall is fine, it's STRONG but using it properly is very situational and despite being "impassable", it doesn't block skill shots, it doesn't stop blinks, doesn't stop unstoppable forces, and if you're split up by Azir's wall from the rest of your team it's really no different from getting hit by a Fiddle ult or Malphite ult. You should have warded.
As for his range... I disagree with cutting that any further. They did that once and it made Azir trash tier for several patches. Before the nerf it was a bit too high but since they refunded a bit of the range he's still safe but a large majority of mid laners can still hit you with their skills.
As far as itemizing MR against Azir... Does that work for any fed mid laner? Like, honestly?
TL;DR: Change his Q to do a lot less damage (and less slow if they touch the CD) and put that power into his soldiers base damage (slightly!) or reduce the Q CD and/or Mana cost.
At least, that's my thoughts on SHURIMA bird.
AbodyHUN6664 votesI guess you are right. When I want to catch him, I will catch him regardless of his ult, even on Skarner. His wall is only really that useful in the jungle blocking an entire path.
Wheatloaf4 votesHis Q already has less base damage/scaling than his soldier's, but yeah, honestly, if they were to nerf anything on him, I'd be the least annoyed at it being his Q damage.
And if anyone wants to cite his shite win rate, look at champion.gg and see what happens to it the more experienced the player is with him. They demolish people.
straight4free8 votesHis ult is far too strong in teamfight situations for him to also be a lane-bully and a hypercarry.
He needs a rework.
ChoGathsSon3 votesHis ult is far too strong in teamfight situations for him to also be a lane-bully and a hypercarry.
He needs a rework.
I don't think he needs a rework, his design is okay. It's just in need of having power reduced from certain areas. As it stands, hes just too safe.
What Is Smite2 votesPlaying against an Azir as a Fiora (my main) I make sure to ult right after my Q puts me in range which causes funny whiffs of his ult for my team while I burst him 100-0
alvisez2 votesi really dont understand how people keep saying he is op. have you played him before talking at least? look at lolking. he has a 45% winrate. since there are 10 players in an average match evryone should influence the outcome of the match for 10%. this means that he plays bad in the 75% of his matches. his ulty can save him in lots of situation but it has also a long cooldown. there are lots of powerful ulti with longs cooldown. i cant see the problem. the secret with azir is to wait and to attack him as soon as he used his q to move his soldiers. he doesnt have a long cooldown on that but you dont need more than few seconds to shot somebody like him. and also dont take some melee champion against him. he counters their farming ability like lots of other champions do.
Ipols2 votesDon't try to do math if you can't. also if a champion is difficult to play he'll have low winrates because unskilled people try it anyway. let's say they give Fizz 300 true dmg on his Q. The fact that I can't play fizz for shit but I keep playng him doesn't make him weaker but makes his winrate lower
edit: Anyway I don't feel like Azir is OverPowered, maybe the ones I met were bad players. I don't know
alvisez1 votessince i'm pretty sure i can do math i would like to know what you think i said wrong. here have my counts explained about the 25% so you can understand what i did and correct me: evry champion in the team with azir contribute to a 50% winrate azir contribute to a x% winrate. a team with azir has a 45% winrate (lolking is my source about this). 50%4/5+x1/5=45%. x=25% winrate btw to answer your second part azir is picked the 8% of time so i didnt think that the noobs could lower his winrate since he is not picked usually but he still has a 47% winrate in diamond so you either are saying diamond guys are noobs or azir is actually bad right now. please respond to the math part that i'm curious why you think it's wrong. i know it's pretty simplified but should be actually correct
Dragmosh1 votesYou can't isolate Azir's lane like that. To prove it, suppose Azir had a 30% win rate. According to your formula,
50% * (4/5) + x * (1/5) = 30% <=> (x/5) = 30% - 40% <=> (x/5) = -10% <=> x = -50% implying that Azir has a negative win rate.
In short, your formula returns statistically impossible results below 40% and above 60%. You did mention in a previous post that it's impossible to have a win rate outside the 40%-60% range, but basic statistics says that every value between 0%-100% is possible and valid. Saying a 30% win rate is impossible is like saying it's impossible to flip a coin 10 times and get 3 heads.
alvisez1 votesof course you have to consider my impossible as a higly improbable. since we are considering a big number of matches it's almost impossible to reach the over 60- less then 40 and as you can see by yourself no-one of the 125 champions get out of this range. btw i dont think this formula is accurate i just want to say that 45% is really low as number in this case (the lowest is 44). in an other case you would think that 45 is almost 50 so it's ok.
BetaDude401 votesYou're over-analyzing this. All Azir's winrate can tell you is that in 45% of ranked games, he's on the winning team, and in 55% of ranked games, he's on the losing team. It is impossible to be able to tell how well or how poorly each Azir plays just off of winrate. It is impossible to tell how his other teammates influenced the game. It is impossible to tell you anything from winrate alone, other than "this is how many games Azir won and lost on average". If you factor in his play rate as well, which you said is 8%, then you might be able to make a claim that Azir, for having a somewhat below-average play rate (for people who aren't like Vayne with a 34% play rate) and a below-average winrate, you could say that the relatively small group that plays him has too much difficulty with him because of his weakness, and he needs to be buffed. However, this type of conjecture is not reliable. Again, you have basically no way to tell what happened in those games other than which side Azir was on when the game was won and how many times he's picked. Unless someone's winrate is an insane outlier, like in the thirties or sixties, then you cannot determine strength on winrate.
alvisez1 votesconsidering the big numbers of players of lol i think we could really tell a lot by looking at the winrate. the single matches and ability of people are really nothing with these big numbers. my only doubt about the 25% thing is that to claim that you should know how hard he loose and feed when he loose. he could be normal in 90% of matches and really bad with a 100% chances of loosing for his team in the other 10% and then he would have his 45% winrate with a 45% good matches. btw all this was just to point the fact for people who dont know math that a 45% winrate is really really bad (thirties and sixties are impossible numbers). just to let you know that elise has 44.5. there is only a 0.5% of difference between azir and elise. we all know elise. 45% is really really bad. i dont think it's a priority to put him to a 50% winrate but he cant be nerfed for sure
BetaDude401 votesSeason 2 Ezreal, 4.20 Weedwick, and Immediate-Post-Cinderhulk Sejuani were all just below or broke the 60% winrate barrier before they received nerfs. Likewise, Riftlimp Kassadin, Immediate-Post-"Compensation" Veigar, and even No-Range Azir were in the thirties before receiving buffs (or in Veigar's case, people eventually realized trying to argue with Riot about him is pointless anyway, so he wasn't heavily changed). I think that maybe immediately after Cassiopeia was reworked (the first time, in Chapter One of Stashu's Terrible Rework: the Incomplete Edition) she might have broken through to 30% winrates, though I am not sure. Similarly, Pre-Hotfix Release Zyra was BROKEN ALL TO HELL. I am almost certainly sure that she broke into the sixties (although, to be fair, there was a hotfix soon after, so not many people had the time to play against her or adjust to her to give her enough games for that to carry any real weight).
You wanna know who has a lower winrate than Elise? Ekko. And Leblanc. Both with around 44% winrates. In fact the only person with a lower winrate than those two is Kassadin, with about a 43% winrate. Well who's near the upper end? Malzahar, with a 53.75% winrate, and he currently has the 4th highest winrate in the game right now. Third being Ahri at 54.27%, second being Amumu at 54.45% winrate, and the number one highest winrate goes to Heimerdonger, at 54.51% winrate. Hell, Taric, freaking TARIC is in the top 15 with a 52.31% winrate. Meanwhile Katarina sits at a 49.05% winrate, who is a mere 0.02% behind fucking YORICK! Thresh, the most popular support in the game, with the second highest popularity, behind only Vayne, is sitting at a %48.49 winrate. I got all of this info from lolking.
Do you see why winrates are not the most reliable thing to base power off of?
alvisez1 votesall i wanted to say is that 45% is a really big number. the best champion right now as you said has a 54% winrate and the lowest has a 43%. so azir is really down in a less then 12% variation. of course you can find some example of bigger variation since these numbers refer to this week and the game is been out for years with over a hundred of champion. the winrate for the law of big numbers is a really important factor in my opinion for the normal champion. the champion you talked about in the second part are not significant in my opinion. being the most popular champion like tresh, kata or the opposite with yorick and tarick really influences your winrate. kata and tresh are used by noobs as freelo train while you use taric only if you are fabulous inside and know what you are doing (also the enemys dont know your abilities). azir has a 8% pickrate and a price that wont let you buy him just for the lol. his 45% winrate imho means a lot
straight4free1 votesI don't think he needs a rework, his design is okay. It's just in need of having power reduced from certain areas. As it stands, hes just too safe.
You're hitting at the right point but drawing the wrong conclusion.
He is another champion that does everything you'd want from his role and then some. He has sieging, he has waveclear, he has an escape, he has an initiate, he has a shield, he has one of the strongest ults in the game for teamfights (fights are won / lost based on it), he has burst damage, he has sustained damage, he has zoning potential, he has sustained harass that you cannot respond to and which does not aggro minions.
The only thing he doesn't have is in-built sustain to his kit. Azir is going to be another one of those champions, just like Irelia -- if they're good, they are too good and will need to be nerfed until they aren't. Watch it.
Beowulfss2 votesHis ult is far too strong in teamfight situations for him to also be a lane-bully and a hypercarry.
He needs a rework.
he came out what, less than a year ago? So he needs a rework? Simple tuning of numbers would be plenty, to make him either itemize tank shredder or ap burster. Maybe a very minor rework, like 1-2 skills would be way more then enough, and would kinda change azir that we know and like to play.
Drunk Rummate6 votesAzir is very manageable if you pick the right composition into him. He's weak against poke champions - Varus, Jayce, Ziggs, Xerath, and Nidalee are all exceptional vs him. You'll notice people were always picking these champions into him in LCS?
It's because he has no sustain and his gapclose removes his ability to follow up with damage or burst for a few seconds. Those champions go even or beat him in lane, but more importantly they absolutely destroy him in sieges which is one of the main reasons to pick Azir.
You can sit around complaining about his ult, or his burst, or his damage, or whatever but if you're picking a mid or low range team into Azir, running straight at him as 5, and you have zero form of poke then it's your own fault. Even still if you have strong engage you can oftentimes flank Azir to force his ult in a bad place or circumvent it entirely. That's why Koreans were always banning Leblanc so they could pick Azir due to her ability to flank and reposition. There are other champions that can do that as well (ex: Fizz) though you might be better off taking him top lane since Azir dumpsters Fizz in lane. Riven is also an excellent pick top as a counter to Azir mid.
Elizasleyn4 votesAzir is very manageable if you pick the right composition into him. He's weak against poke champions - Varus, Jayce, Ziggs, Xerath, and Nidalee are all exceptional vs him. You'll notice people were always picking these champions into him in LCS?
It's because he has no sustain and his gapclose removes his ability to follow up with damage or burst for a few seconds. Those champions go even or beat him in lane, but more importantly they absolutely destroy him in sieges which is one of the main reasons to pick Azir.
You can sit around complaining about his ult, or his burst, or his damage, or whatever but if you're picking a mid or low range team into Azir, running straight at him as 5, and you have zero form of poke then it's your own fault. Even still if you have strong engage you can oftentimes flank Azir to force his ult in a bad place or circumvent it entirely. That's why Koreans were always banning Leblanc so they could pick Azir due to her ability to flank and reposition. There are other champions that can do that as well (ex: Fizz) though you might be better off taking him top lane since Azir dumpsters Fizz in lane. Riven is also an excellent pick top as a counter to Azir mid.
Yeah, I don't understand the point of this thread, it just sounds like some people don't know that there are so many ways to counter him. Even playing him a couple times should give you more than a good idea on his weaknesses. And I'm not even an azir player, but I've played against him so many times to know that he is perfectly balanced.
MohawkBird6 votesI have no idea how this got so many upvotes but Azir has so many counters and counterplay and his early game is pretty garbage due to huge mana problems.
Elizasleyn3 votesHe is only strong with his soldiers. Avoid them, and he will die in 2 seconds with no way to fight back.
EDIT: for those who don't know what I'm talking about, I'll try to elaborate. But TL;DR ^ Most of Azir's burst is from his Q-> auto attack combo. Dodging his Q will completely nullify his burst damage.
And if you happen to get hit by his Q, the damage is actually very little. Simply walk out of his soldier's auto attack range and he cannot re-position his soldiers for another 8 seconds. Plenty of time for you to counter harass, knowing he can't hurt you until his Q is back up, or make a play. However, the latter will require some skill, calculation and experience on your part, like every single other matchup in the mid lane.
It's the same thing if he attacks with two soldiers. The only difference is that his Q and auto attacks will deal 25% more damage. However, it digs a deeper hole in his mana pool, and it will deplete his soldier stacks. Most of his damage is still from his soldier's auto attack. Simply avoid them and he still has to wait 8 seconds for his cooldown. Assuming you have vision, you can force an all in and bait out his ultimate. If you're playing a long ranged mage, his short ranged ultimate won't help him.
If you can bypass his wall with an ability, then he's doomed... In any case, he'll be down an ultimate and/or trade/harassment/kill. My point is, even in his best matchup, he can still be countered. He is still a mage and will almost always lose from an all in. And although his soldiers can deal a lot of damage, it's only if you let him by standing within it's auto attack range. By avoiding them, he has no other way of damaging you.
ChoGathsSon8 votesHe is only strong with his soldiers. Avoid them, and he will die in 2 seconds with no way to fight back.
I'll get right on that
M Schumacher1 votesI'll get right on that
lel
Elizasleyn2 votesI'll get right on that
My point is that he already has obvious strengths and weaknesses. Whether you want to acknowledge his strength or take advantage of his weaknesses, is up to you. But you want a nerf just because he is good, in certain situations, but can be easily countered? You might as well propose a nerf on every other mid lane mages that have a safety mechanic and is able to burst.
LankPants1 votesAvoid them, and he will die in 2 seconds with no way to fight back.
Or he'll just wall you away, then reposition his solders with his low CD Q and shred you with them. OP's right, perfect example of damned if you do, damned if you don't.
LordGeovanni1 votesthe people who think they can and should just stay there when you have windows if you move right after he does to attack him. the only way this would be aproblem is on an assassin or a adc both of whom dont build defense at all to that i say Ha there are defensive items in the game for a reason. but then the adc/ assassin wount be as strong? then they will have to itemize for situations and choose when and how to go in just like all the other classes rather than attacking anyone and just going down the line
Byakuya Kuchiki1 votesHe is only strong with his soldiers. Avoid them, and he will die in 2 seconds with no way to fight back.
you have to stay 1200 units away from him then. thats 3 flashes.
Elizasleyn1 votesyou have to stay 1200 units away from him then. thats 3 flashes.
It's called: walk around his soldiers and re-position yourself when he uses his Q. Pay attention to his positioning, and to the position of his soldiers. If, after he uses his spells, his soldiers or he is out of position, harass/all in him. If not, you should have taken minimal damage from his soldiers by re-positioning and also harassed him. That's just the basics of mid lane man. Know how to and when to harass, trade, dodge/land skillshots.
KarKzz3 votesDid you ever played azir ? (He is free soon) Just try. He is probably the hardest champion in the game. He also have a low pickrate , which mean that he is likely pretty good with him.
He is kind of weak early game, and can't reposition his soldier fast enough. If you get something a bit mobile and / or poke you should beat him. His ult have a low range to.
ShuffledPancake2 votes-_- -
ChoGathsSon4 votes-_- -
- -
are you ok
ShuffledPancake1 votesThat would be a rhetorical question, not gonna answer it. Are you ok? Just bcz azir was played competitively .
ChoGathsSon4 votesThat would be a rhetorical question, not gonna answer it. Are you ok? Just bcz azir was played competitively .
Yeah he's definitely not played in solo queue at all
Tiax2 votesHis q shouldnt chunk at any point in the game, his q is supposed to enable him to maneuver his soldiers not chunk you for 25% of your health with barely any counter play every 6 seconds... Like Azir is supposed to be the sustained damage mage, so his q slow, dash, and wall all fit in the kit but the part that breaks it is how his q bursts which pretty much means he doesnt have to worry so much about positioning for his dps.
ApexInTheCircle1 votesHis q shouldnt chunk at any point in the game, his q is supposed to enable him to maneuver his soldiers not chunk you for 25% of your health with barely any counter play every 6 seconds... Like Azir is supposed to be the sustained damage mage, so his q slow, dash, and wall all fit in the kit but the part that breaks it is how his q bursts which pretty much means he doesnt have to worry so much about positioning for his dps.
That's fine I'll give you that. Take away his damage on his Q but double the range of his soldiers attack and I'll be okay with it.
Veolan2 votesAzir is fine how he is, very hard champion to play.
Go play him yourself and you'll better understand what he can and can't do.
LordGeovanni1 votesyou take advantage of his weak early game and you blink over his ult if grouping into a small group isnt smart then spread out along the lane or run around fast he's still squishy kill him he can only change his sand minions places every few seconds. and he cant attack well while running to reposition himself
MLDzXnRRR3 votesyou take advantage of his weak early game and you blink over his ult if grouping into a small group isnt smart then spread out along the lane or run around fast he's still squishy kill him he can only change his sand minions places every few seconds. and he cant attack well while running to reposition himself
His weak early game? Why do Koreans destroy their opponents with Azir during this "weak early game"? Maybe because he is a lane bully? Only Xerath and Ziggs are ok vs him, because they don't interact with him at all and just poke.
Glory to God1 votesSo we are taking the comprtitive play in our sights? If so, that reminds me of those moments when Varus' Q hit Azir and ate 1/3 of his hp. Just laughed so hard when the crowd went 'OOOOOOOOH'
LordGeovanni1 votesazir can only move his champions so offten and its maxed out early when it costs large amounts of what he has to just summon and constantly harass when you can move out of the soldier circle in 1 second
Draykow1 votesThe counter to Azir is to build Mercury Treads, Frozen Heart, Spirit's Visage, Locket of the Iron Solari, Banshee's Veil, and Guardian Angel. Once you have all that then get your team to 5 man gank him. Sure, he get's a quadra, but at least he'll be dead.
BeerOfRoot48431 votesIs it just me or is Azir less about dueling people, and now with Luden's Echo, more about Q + Auto? Cuz that's all I see Azirs ever do nowadays. They play him like he's Ziggs or something...
Lugg1 votesAgainst certain champions, that is true. But there are plenty of champs who do well against him.
BakedLotion1 votesJust make his autos doing more dmg from soldiers but remove Q damage and provide a heavier slow His damage should be dps, not burst.