Why is RIOT enforcing the "Best Botlane Win" Meta so hard?

Raoul·Nov 28, 2017·103 votes·4,682 views

Normaly when RIOT is so dead bound to keep one role dominating, its because of awesome LCS plays, but in that case it doesnt make any sense, because the ADC domination is very boring to watch, has no flashy plays at all and is overally super dull...

Nothing is exiting in watching an ADC just autoattacking the enemy team, melting squishys and tanks away and the whole game is decided on which ADC can melt the frontline faster...

So its not for LCS, so WHY? Why do they refuse to balance bot lane?

123 Comments

ParoeNov 28, 201733 votes

Its flashy. its short. Its in line with riots bottom line, where they want each game to be ~15 minutes like overwatch. Riot doesnt even know what they want any more and a lot of development in terms of items and features ends up being change for the sake of change too. The BE switch was meant to copy overwatch' success; however, overwatch is shorter and doesnt feel as long by far.

If riot actually wants their games to be shorter, they need to halve how long every lane is and get rid of items... let people augment their abilities with battleri- i mean runes.

RainXBladeNov 28, 201712 votes

Riot's trying to turn the game into Overwatch

Riot really screwed over the game and it's community by doing this. I wished that games could go past at least the 30 min mark like what it used to be. Nonetheless, Riot made games shorter because LC$, and this is plain stupid.

AhrisNov 28, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Riot really screwed over the game and it's community by doing this. I wished that games could go past at least the 30 min mark like what it used to be. Nonetheless, Riot made games shorter because LC$, and this is plain stupid.

Games are already going till 30min and adcs are always reaching their lategame status in like 25 min, so why do you want longer games?

If anything people surrender much more nowadays instead of trying.

Big Black CrocNov 28, 20174 votes

what game are you playing?

TehNACHONov 28, 20175 votes

What game are you playing?

I still get plenty of 30/40+ minute games...unless someone surrenders. Plenty of long games, and validation for Ahris statement that people surrender much more nowadays instead of trying.

Though in my case it's playing champs that can't do much from behind. If waveclear items got more popular again and defensive sieges got more support, I'd see that quickly disappear imo.

chipndip1Nov 28, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Riot really screwed over the game and it's community by doing this. I wished that games could go past at least the 30 min mark like what it used to be. Nonetheless, Riot made games shorter because LC$, and this is plain stupid.

IT STILL IS 30 MINUTES

nice tableNov 28, 20171 votes

in season 5, i repeat season 5, that's only 2 years ago an average game in diamond elo took 32 minutes with it now taking only 25 minutes, no it's not still 30 minnutes.

Kai GuyNov 28, 20171 votes

That's a lower gap then 15 to 25. Anyhow I do want to call attention to the point that the game health is being actively looked at by Riot currently, regardless of if your seeing 15 snowball matches or think its same as previous seasons here is what is being looked over.

"So, game time hasn't changed too much on average. Having said that though, that's just one facet of things and lack of much average game time doesn't mean other things might not have changed significantly. We're currently looking at a range of other measurements including things like: How snowbally a game is (on average how far through is the game decided?) Whether both early game and late game champions are performing appropriately How much variation in game length there is (are more games around the average length, or are we seeing more really short and really long games?) How game time, snowball etc changes by different skill levels and regions Etc" <- Meddler quote.

nice tableNov 28, 20172 votes

"hasn't change too much on average"

in season 1 the average game time was 42 minutes and now its 25 minutes kek

Kai GuyNov 28, 20173 votes

Season 1 meta was not developed and we ran Ash and Sivr mid. I can go on on balance then for things like say Xin or Eve but it would be pointless. Close Games would go on for ages if you could not convert an early lead and snowball into nexus. Also composition and player skill in lobby was hot garbage due to pick order/call order and 1 tricks and low pool accounts.

Look, people playing halo for the first time will have longer matches of slayer but as folks learn maps and weapon spawns you see that time go down. I don't think its a fair comparison to make and it should be pretty dam clear he is referencing season 7 not game time from a half dozen years.

But hey good upvote bait, I expect its gonna work on any one who was not around for season 1 or adopts a FK riot attitude.... Edit, last bit here was unfair from me. Its clear Table has issues with game time being lowered and its a frustration for him.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 28, 201722 votes

Because for whatever reason a lot of kiddies are drawn towards the adc role because THEY are the carry. THEY are THE star of the team. The quarterback of botlane. Your typical mmo DD shitters who are doing SO MUCH DPS until you actually parse their dps and they realize they are just shit at the game. And because those hardcarries in league are trash they have been crying and whining due to their lack of mechanics despite adcs being overpowered in high elo for most seasons (master+ im talking about) so riot buffed them and buffed them. For the sake of lcs riot fucked the game hard by making it more and more snowbally. ADCs got the short end of the stick because suddenly they couldnt scale anymore like they used to do and then riots balance team suffered from the psychic blast channeled by low elo adc mains on reddit melting their brains deleting the part of the brain that was responsible for "balance" and they threw every design principle over board (ehehehe) to just let adcs scale twice as fast as before. Then worlds come and suddenly you realize why riot loves botlane so hard when the crowd goes OHHH WAAAAUW POGCHAMP when a twitch stands still and pentas a team in three rightclicks. All hail low elo shitters bad at the game, bad at mechanics even worse on using their brain. Unfortunately these guys make up the majority of their income.

CasterGilgameshNov 28, 20176 votes

while i feel this comment needed less salt i agree some how riot tried to cater to the silver players (and to a degree gold) they also tried to balance around the LCS which just isnt going to happen which lands us in some limbo of snowball and boring games

Big Black CrocNov 28, 20172 votes

I thought riot was suppose to cater to low elo because the majority of the player base is in low elo.this kind of sucks because it is also the reason why champions like darius Yi aren't getting buffed.

But yeah, this sucks dick for people who are good at the game(high elo players).

Sett a trapNov 28, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Because for whatever reason a lot of kiddies are drawn towards the adc role because THEY are the carry. THEY are THE star of the team. The quarterback of botlane. Your typical mmo DD shitters who are doing SO MUCH DPS until you actually parse their dps and they realize they are just shit at the game. And because those hardcarries in league are trash they have been crying and whining due to their lack of mechanics despite adcs being overpowered in high elo for most seasons (master+ im talking about) so riot buffed them and buffed them. For the sake of lcs riot fucked the game hard by making it more and more snowbally. ADCs got the short end of the stick because suddenly they couldnt scale anymore like they used to do and then riots balance team suffered from the psychic blast channeled by low elo adc mains on reddit melting their brains deleting the part of the brain that was responsible for "balance" and they threw every design principle over board (ehehehe) to just let adcs scale twice as fast as before. Then worlds come and suddenly you realize why riot loves botlane so hard when the crowd goes OHHH WAAAAUW POGCHAMP when a twitch stands still and pentas a team in three rightclicks. All hail low elo shitters bad at the game, bad at mechanics even worse on using their brain. Unfortunately these guys make up the majority of their income.

Someone is slightly bitter....

I play primarily ADC/JG/Support. Learning mid in ranked.

I actually abandoned the bottom lane completely this season for top because working with someone was too cancerous. But I came back at the end and climbed back into gold.

But you know what I missed about the lane? It wasn't being a "DPS MMO Fucboi". It's because the lane is challenging and far more dynamic than "OH I am Riven vs a Malphite. Time to try for a pre 6 kill and roam".

The problem with solo lanes is the lane is highly predictable and a lot of rock paper scissor if players are EQUAL skill.

Bottom lane is actually really fun, dynamic, and never gets dull. I hate being an ADC (Still) in team fights because I typically do not get peels. I only think I'm the carry if I am playing Vayne. If I'm playing Ashe or Caitlyn, I'm completely fine with having a KDA Like 2-2-15. With the new runes, I literally build my Ashe as an Arrow Bot. I just hug someone that can follow up and launch arrows every 35 seconds after lane phase.

Again, your post is warping reality and I don't think most ADCS think they're "All star DPS Rock Stars"

ChoC0IateNov 29, 20171 votes

I've just spent some time checking top 200 players in EUW and KR. Number one by role are jungler mains, second come AD mains, third support players, fourth top players and last come midlaners by numbers. Being last by players in top tier for a role says it obviously has the least impact, which when combined with the fact that midlane is the most played role - on theory should have the most players in top tier (the more a role is played if they are equal important, the more challengers will be from this role) means it's the most underpowered role with insufficent impact on the game.

The balance of a role should be measured by highest tier players only due to them as possible as close to the potential of a champion/role.

Sett a trapNov 29, 20171 votes

I've known this for a long time. I could never climb out of silver as Ahri despite (many times) utterly destroying my lane.

I feel like as a Support I have long term impact on the game, especially lane phase. I can feed my ADC. Also coming from a RTS/StarCraft background, people in silver do not realize how important map vision is. Doesn't matter if I'm fooling around in ranked as an AP mage, I still get that sightstone and a sweeper.

Junglers create a lot of pressure and can turn a lane upside down or shut down someone. I've played with my Diamond3 friend who smurfed and we were in Silver 1 at the time. He just got camped and couldn't do anything. I was ADC and carried. I mean he didn't feed and "came online" as Illaoi later on but wasn't destroying the enemy team. This is in contrast to when he gets a few kills and starts rampaging the map and pulling 1v3's with his ult, etc, etc.

As a Vayne Main, I find that even if a Nasus gets out of hand, as long as I get my items, I can delete him. Just need to group up and surprise gank him because NAsus gets too confident in 1v1'ing people.

FurriesAreHotNov 28, 20178 votes

League was built around the following:

Attack Damage Carries being the core of your team, they deal the damage, in great numbers
Tanks use their sheer mass and/or Crowd Control to prevent the carry from dying before the enemy
Burst Mages and Assassins pick off non-tanky supports or even the enemy carry
Artillery Mages provide pressure and peel during a fight, sometimes scoring a kill or two.
Enchanters empower or protect the one who needs it most, typically the carry.
Bruisers and Fighters peel for the carry and absorb some blows, typically forcing the enemy to reposition Editted for clarity: Take this line with a grain of salt, since my knowledge with these subclasses is very minimal.

All of your team plays a role in the assistance of your carry. This is how league was built. Carries arent meant to be flashy, they are meant to deal consistent damage, sacrificing movement and bulk, and relying on positioning.

Another edit for clarity: Not gonna disagree that many carries right now are too strong. Because they are.

RaoulNov 28, 201711 votes

Point is, in earlier season you could carry as a non ADC Champion. Now thats nearly impossible.

FurriesAreHotNov 28, 20176 votes

It's was a very unhealthy time, since Assassins and Mages would tear through teams. There is a reason "ADC in 2017" was born.

Pigeon ReformedNov 28, 20175 votes

{quoted}

It's was a very unhealthy time, since Assassins and Mages would tear through teams. There is a reason "ADC in 2017" was born.

You literally sound like an adc main

FurriesAreHotNov 28, 20174 votes

You couldn't imply that based on the name?

Big Black CrocNov 28, 201712 votes

That makes much more sense lmao, love biased adc mains saying the role is balanced, fuck off.

RivuoNov 29, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Black Croc,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Aqi4aUi,comment-id=000400000000000200000000,timestamp=2017-11-28T20:11:20.805+0000)

That makes much more sense lmao, love biased adc mains saying the role is balanced, fuck off.

Maybe you should main ADC then and climb out of silver 2?

BlåbæretNov 28, 201711 votes

{quoted}

It's was a very unhealthy time, since Assassins and Mages would tear through teams.

LOL, but ADCs doing it is fine? Lmao.

Everyone knows the ADC meme was bullcrap. They were still too strong and irreplaceable, but at least they were bearable.

You're an ADC main though, so imma be content with downvoting your post and letting you live with your delusions.

FurriesAreHotNov 28, 20175 votes

The job of the ADC is to tear through teams. I will not deny the fact that some ADCs are doing their job a bit too well right now. Refrain from denouncing all ADC mains as unreasonable twats, because it makes you look a tad dickish yourself.

ChoC0IateNov 29, 20171 votes

Excatly this is what an adc has to do.

Is adc overpowered? No.

Other roles are underpowered. Mages should have high brust, but they cant do anything to an adc with hexdrinker, they need ap items buffed.

AirKingNeoNov 28, 20174 votes

You're an ADC main though, so imma be content with downvoting your post and letting you live with your delusions.

You're the delusional person.

RivuoNov 28, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Point is, in earlier season you could carry as a non ADC Champion. Now thats nearly impossible.

Dude why do i find this to be such bull. Me and my girl literally broke away from adc/supp (stuff we main) to go Jg/mid and we've been winning wayyy more games.

In bot lane its not the adc thats busted, its the fact that bot lane gets tped/ganked at the same time constantly. I see dives and other sick stuff because dragon is right there.

I've been able to have way more presence / KP in my games with Sejuani/Jarvan/Evelynn/Vi but i have a higher win rate on Sej compared to the others.

I dont know man, i dont understand this ''adc is king! '' bullshit. I can understand Vayne twitch and ezreal being the bullshit they are though.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 28, 20176 votes

You can't carry as adc because you have no mechanics. The sole reason why this adc 2k17 meme even creeped up and riot assblasted bot with buffs so bad players start seeing results on adcs.

AhrisNov 28, 20175 votes

{quoted}

You can't carry as adc because you have no mechanics. The sole reason why this adc 2k17 meme even creeped up and riot assblasted bot with buffs so bad players start seeing results on adcs.

People downvoted me everytime i said adcs were completely fine or even strong before. But people always doubt me and go with their wrong mindset.

DisembarkNov 28, 20174 votes

This isn’t the right mindset either. Boards is stupidly biased in one way or another and you getting upvoted/downvotes depends on how you flow in the circlejerk.

DisembarkNov 28, 20174 votes

yeah you’re right. They should’ve just mechanically outplayed Vis ult or Hecarims E, when they’re 3 levels down cause AFK farming JG got you stupid amounts of XP.

Those idiots.

ChoC0IateNov 29, 20171 votes

Probably cause you are silver. I've 1 master and 2 dia accounts. I used to be challenger by maining mid/jg.

The balance of a role should be measured by highest tier players only due to them as possible as close to the potential of a champion/role.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 28, 20175 votes

"Bruisers and fighters peel for the carry" WHAT !? I dont even have words for this. Your whole comment makes me so irrationally angry irl i'm close to smashing my keyboard. FYI: There are more carry champs than adcs. Camille is a carry, fiora and riven are carries and basically every fighter/juggernaut. Because thats what bruisers are tanky dmg dealer who either go for the 1v1 to pressure the map (or even 1v2 like jax is infamous for) or are divers like camille who go for the backline (adcs, mages) to take them out of the fight. League was (what a lot of people and rito seem to forget) built around powercurves. This apparently doesn't exist anymore looking at ADCs. First of all let us talk about marksmen and not ADCs because thats a lose term which can be used for any AD carry champ. Marksmen have benefits like range, objective taking power and consistent reliable dmg but they need time to scale. Tanks also are pretty useless without a dmg source on the team which the mage alone can not provide most likely so there has been the bruisers who for the most part have sustained dmg/high dps to CARRY the adc to the point where he is relevant and are tanky enough to not get instantly blown up by an assassin or mage. Sometimes it was enough to end the game in the midgame sometimes not where then the adc would kick in.

So no league was not "built to everyone bowing down to the adc". This is not league of adcs atleast not just yet.

FurriesAreHotNov 28, 20172 votes

The characters you mentioned, like fiora and riven, are skirmishers. A Skirmisher is a high damage high mobility character with one defenseive steroid. They are meant to force a 1v1 prior to a teamfight to efficiently take down the enemy. While a skirmisher can carry, they need to be very fed, even then a well-timed Hard Crowd Control will shut them down on the spot. Yes, anyone "can" carry. But the point of the game is to assist the Marksman of bottom lane, whether it be picking, peel, tank, or buffs.

MordepoolNov 28, 20172 votes

I've carried many useless ADC to victory. I will continue to do so. I'm not playing a team game to be subservient. Fuck you for implying that is the only way to win

FurriesAreHotNov 28, 20172 votes

Can you carry an ADC? Fuck yeah you can. Did I say all games would be centered on the carry? No. I clearly lined out that roles such as Mage and Assassin can play a huge role in the game.

BlåbæretNov 29, 20171 votes

You're literally saying that people are playing for the ADC and not with. In no way or shape has Riot ever said that the point of the game is to "assist the marksman". You're literally making things up because you're too high on yourself as an ADC main. Don't worry though, the class will be dethroned and be garbage tier soon enough.

You also seem to ignore melee carry champs (other carry roles/classes as well) which are useless compared to our ADC overlords.

FurriesAreHotNov 29, 20172 votes

The way the post is worded may lead you to believe that. However, you even said it yourself: “...playing for the ADC and not with”. All characters play with and around each other. Working with the carry is exactly the same as assisting the carry. Did I ignore melee carries? Well, almost. I did name the subclasses of fighter and bruiser but completely forgot to mention skirmishers and such. Not so much ignoring as forgetting. You appear to have the mentality “oh your precious ADC main will be bad soon” as if all I do is sit on my ass playing carry. I actually jungle a lot as well as the occasional toplane, and enjoy them as well.

chipndip1Nov 28, 20174 votes

{quoted}

"Bruisers and fighters peel for the carry" WHAT !? I dont even have words for this. Your whole comment makes me so irrationally angry irl i'm close to smashing my keyboard. FYI: There are more carry champs than adcs. Camille is a carry, fiora and riven are carries and basically every fighter/juggernaut. Because thats what bruisers are tanky dmg dealer who either go for the 1v1 to pressure the map (or even 1v2 like jax is infamous for) or are divers like camille who go for the backline (adcs, mages) to take them out of the fight. League was (what a lot of people and rito seem to forget) built around powercurves. This apparently doesn't exist anymore looking at ADCs. First of all let us talk about marksmen and not ADCs because thats a lose term which can be used for any AD carry champ. Marksmen have benefits like range, objective taking power and consistent reliable dmg but they need time to scale. Tanks also are pretty useless without a dmg source on the team which the mage alone can not provide most likely so there has been the bruisers who for the most part have sustained dmg/high dps to CARRY the adc to the point where he is relevant and are tanky enough to not get instantly blown up by an assassin or mage. Sometimes it was enough to end the game in the midgame sometimes not where then the adc would kick in.

So no league was not "built to everyone bowing down to the adc". This is not league of adcs atleast not just yet.

He was wrong about fighters being peelers (lol), but you're wrong about fighters being carries.

JöJöNov 29, 20171 votes

It is worth noting that Juggernauts were designed to be tanky top lane carries that a team could be built around such as intentionally picking high CC jungle or a MS boosting Support like Lulu. I think saying fighters aren't carries is not wholly true even if for awhile it has felt like you couldn't be one.

PoskeNov 28, 20173 votes

{quoted}

League was built around the following:

Attack Damage Carries being the core of your team, they deal the damage, in great numbers

Tanks use their sheer mass and/or Crowd Control to prevent the carry from dying before the enemy

Burst Mages and Assassins pick off non-tanky supports or even the enemy carry

Artillery Mages provide pressure and peel during a fight, sometimes scoring a kill or two.

Enchanters empower or protect the one who needs it most, typically the carry.

Bruisers and Fighters peel for the carry and absorb some blows, typically forcing the enemy to reposition

All of your team plays a role in the assistance of your carry. This is how league was built. Carries arent meant to be flashy, they are meant to deal consistent damage, sacrificing movement and bulk, and relying on positioning.