Good job Riot, you broke Kog

Rebonack··49 votes·5,095 views

Turns out shaving off a little bit of power late game while massively buffing a champion's early and mid game tends to make them too powerful.

Who would have imagined that?

So here's the deal.

Don't lower Kog's base attack speed. That will do nothing more than further cement him as an early/mid game dominate champion. This is the exact opposite direction you guys should be taking if you want Kog to be a late game hyper-scaler. You have also made his Q absolutely worthless. The most successful builds are maxing it dead last without even bothering to drop a single utility point in it.

So.

Here's what you do.

Remove the passive attack speed.

Completely.

Maybe fold some of it back into into Kog's attack speed per level. Because Kog should be getting that attack speed by level 18, not level 9.

Add a new passive to Kog's Q that applies a stacking %resist shred OnHit. Make the Q active add a whole bunch of stacks at once. This helps with Kog's identity as a tank shredder and gives him a compelling reason to level his Q.

Revert Kog's W back to total AD scaling. Then EITHER give it a small amount of flat base damage that scales with skill level OR make W's duration increase slightly with skill level. Either effect would let Kog players feel good about leveling their W.

Then increase the level 1 slow on his E a bit and smooth out the scaling. Kog players should be able to make a compelling choice between more resist shred and more slow.

There.

Now you have a champ that's weak early game and scales into a monster rather than the all-devouring terrorhorror Kog is right now.

100 Comments

Rebonack10 votes

But seriously, Riot.

When you guys make a bad call, don't just continue plowing forward heedlessly while trying to fix other things that aren't the problem.

Kog's early and mid game are too strong. Because you buffed him there. And he drops off in the deep late game. Because you removed his W AD scaling. Kog should not be great early. He should be a liability early. He shouldn't be 'okay' late game. He should be a 40 minute time-bomb. That's the whole point of his character. He starts off as a cute little caterpillar and grows into an otherworldly, unstoppable monster.

Lowering his base attack speed will only decrease his power at all stages. His growth curve will still be wrong for what you guys keep saying he's supposed to be doing for his team.

So do the right thing.

Admit your mistake, remove that attack speed from his W, and find a compelling way to enhance his late game if you feel like he's actually too weak.

ofart2 votes

I've had much the same thoughts. I think if they want to balance him with minimal effort, they should just put AS back on Q, keep the minimum damage on W and reduce the ult. mana cost by 10 back to 40 for the first use. They have promised AP Kog fans that he won't be ruined and he definitely was with no compensation. These changes would help both AP Kog and AD Kog just enough to be "fine." and it's the fastest solution for the moment. Lowering base AS is stupid because it further weakens his late game even though he's supposed to be a hypercarry and also hurts every build (including laning as AP Kog). They can just make the simple changes I propose and I think Kog would be fine though possibly on the weak side. In any case, they can work from there and at least it makes more sense from a design perspective for a hypercarry to scale slowly and not be basically at the strongest point by level 13.

GlockHammer7 votes

I this case I don't blame Riot, people screamed and screamed for more after each buff and every change to Kog. No one had to patience to actually wait for the data before screaming for more buffs, So in this case, I blame the community and Kog mains. Not Riot.

Rebonack6 votes

{quoted}

I this case I don't blame Riot, people screamed and screamed for more after each buff and every change to Kog. No one had to patience to actually wait for the data before screaming for more buffs, So in this case, I blame the community and Kog mains. Not Riot.

As of 6.02 most Kog mains have been saying that Kog needs better focus on his late game and/or more power in his AP build. ADC Kog was fine in terms of strength, he was just a bit lacking on the identity side of things.

Unfortunately, Riot completely disregarded what the Kog mains were saying and buffed Kog's early game again.

The Loveless6 votes

Is there a champ who can legitimately rank any of their 3 basic skills before the other? It seems there's ALWAYS one skill that MUST be ranked first, and then there's a throwaway skill you only put one point in until you absolutely have no other ranking options.

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

As in maxing or just getting the ability?

Rebonack3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Loveless,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=41gVEPKA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-02-14T01:14:22.878+0000)

Is there a champ who can legitimately rank any of their 3 basic skills before the other? It seems there's ALWAYS one skill that MUST be ranked first, and then there's a throwaway skill you only put one point in until you absolutely have no other ranking options.

Most champs have a one-point-wonder skill, yes.

Right now, people are putting no points at all in Q until they absolutely have to.

What I want Riot to do is make it so there's a reason to put one point into both Q and E, then max second whichever one will be more valuable depending on the game. (Max Q for dealing with tanky foes, max E for more slow).

Hello I am Bird22 votes

Yorick You can upgrade anything first because people wont give a single fuck what you do, they wouldn't know the difference anyhow.

Nogrim1 votes

meh i always prioritize his W for the slow, makes you almost impossible to gank or chase. in fact on yorick i max everything before i bother with his ult unless the jungle shows up to help knock down a tower just as i hit 6. in which case i take the ult, clone him and the three of us bash the tower

doombotMECHA3 votes

I max e first because it costs the least so i can be a sustained nuisance to the enemy laner

Hello I am Bird2 votes

I max q first because I love the burst it gives :v

Bouncemaster Zac3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Loveless,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=41gVEPKA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-02-14T01:14:22.878+0000)

Is there a champ who can legitimately rank any of their 3 basic skills before the other? It seems there's ALWAYS one skill that MUST be ranked first, and then there's a throwaway skill you only put one point in until you absolutely have no other ranking options.

Alistar at least feels like he can. Improve his heals with E max, his damage and aoe with Q max, and the frequency of his single-target peel and combo initiation with W max.

Baron of Bread3 votes

I don't think I have ever maxed Headbutt first. It has a shorter cooldown than Pulverize so maxing it doesn't help get initiations off more often and there is little other reason to go for it. E and Q I have definitely maxed first, but W just doesn't seem worthwhile for it.

Bouncemaster Zac4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=41gVEPKA,comment-id=000200040000,timestamp=2016-02-14T08:15:52.899+0000)

I don't think I have ever maxed Headbutt first. It has a shorter cooldown than Pulverize so maxing it doesn't help get initiations off more often and there is little other reason to go for it. E and Q I have definitely maxed first, but W just doesn't seem worthwhile for it.

It may not be optimal but it is possible without being outright bad, which was the question. You can also get away with any max order on Zac depending on where and how you're playing him. Trust me, I'm a blob main.

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

Really? I feel so useless if I dont' max E first. The cooldown is so long, and the range is pretty low with only one pint in it.

Bouncemaster Zac1 votes

{quoted}

Really? I feel so useless if I dont' max E first. The cooldown is so long, and the range is pretty low with only one pint in it.

Again, it depends where and how you're playing him. Top lane against someone you wanna stay away from like Darius? Q first. Someone you're gonna be trading with constantly? Unstable your Matter for the extra, continuous trading power. Gank-heavy jungling? Absolutely E.

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

Oh I'm dumb. I forgot he was played top too. I've only played him jg. That makes sense.

Sire Hippington2 votes

I often max headbut first, gives the highest singletarget damage and peel, great for kill-lanes as it optimizes your burst vs the priority target, and with lower cd often allows a second use to finish of someone.

ComannderShepard1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Loveless,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=41gVEPKA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-02-14T01:14:22.878+0000)

Is there a champ who can legitimately rank any of their 3 basic skills before the other? It seems there's ALWAYS one skill that MUST be ranked first, and then there's a throwaway skill you only put one point in until you absolutely have no other ranking options.

Ezreal can be one with depending on the way he builds. I;ve seen some high ranked players max Q of ap ez mid for farming and easier sheen procs instead of W for damage

Troll for Trump2 votes

There was one point in time, where people who only put points into Ez's Q, E, and R had higher winrates than those that put even a single point in his W... dark times..

Anidan2 votes

Probably around the time they removed the attack speed slow from his W. AD Ez had an easier time just using Q and E while ignoring W because it was widely considered a mana sink with too little damage to care about since he had no scaling off of it, and the main thing that kept AD Ez using it in the first place was removed, so we didn't put points into his W. His Q offered low mana, low cooldown harass that helped us farm, and his E provided engage potential with damage if we needed it and an escape with lower cooldown for each point if we needed to get out.

Times were different for us back then. His W, despite the fact it went through minions, was very low value compared to the rest of his kit, so it could safely be ignored for his AD build.

Troll for Trump1 votes

No, I believe it was right after the runeglaive bug got fixed...But they should rework W

Anidan2 votes

It was probably both then, because I distinctly remember that after the attack speed removal of W AD Ezreal just straight stopped building W for the longest time because it gave no worthwhile benefit for the mana cost compared to Sheen-enhanced proc of Q, and the multi-use E with cooldown reduced per rank. AD Ezreal has a long history of not using his W. I agree that they should probably do something else with W. It's nothing but a skillshot with damage and a situational attack speed steroid he can give his team or rarely himself. It's not very useful to AD Ezreal, even with the attack speed because he gains very little damage from it, and it's only good on AP Ezreal for the damage.

ComannderShepard1 votes

{quoted}

There was one point in time, where people who only put points into Ez's Q, E, and R had higher winrates than those that put even a single point in his W... dark times..

I know, I'm one of those ezreals. ;D

Orangesilk3 votes

Chogath:

You max Q First in the midlane, when it's a desperate matchup where you need long-range waveclear for safe farming. Or against Heimer, to pop his turrets and the minions at the same time.

You max W First 90% of the time because it does a lot for you, waveclear, harass, utility, it's solid, but it's a melee range skill.

You max E First in the toplane in matchups where sustained damage is more important that the W burst, or against players playing super-defensively to shove the wave under their turret. Also in some specific AS builds (which are very wonky, tbh).

SociopathFriend4 votes

There's a few- Annie Depending on whether you want your farming tool (Q) up more often or your AoE stun (W) more often Chogath Honestly can max any of his abilities first depending on lane. Max Q for most damage, Max W for longest silence, Max E for best trading. DrMundo Q for slow, E for trades Fiddlesticks Q for CC, W for damage/healing Lux E for damages, W for shields Mordekaiser Q for massive damage, W for sustain, E for shield

And so on- a lot of it actually depends on you and who you're facing.

RisenDarkKnight2 votes

You can't max w first on lux mid. You will get shoved under tower and be unable to CS. You'll just get ignored for the first 20 minutes of the game because you can't kill minions much less champs. (unless you are talking about lux support, where it would be fine).

HidingOverHere1 votes

Veigars sometimes choose between meteor and stun max

I do 2 levels stun before maxing w.

TheImpLord4 votes

If you don't max your ap farming tool first your doing it wrong.

HidingOverHere1 votes

Well no shit. What do you max next?

Tsohgder2 votes

Xin Zhao.

He used to max E in the jungle for better burst/slow/cd, and Q in the top lane for the damage.

Now he can also max W to get more heal/sustained damage too, but he loses some early game raw damage.

I've been searching for the best skill order, searching on op.gg what to max, and everyone seems to max a different ability (talking about diamond XZ mains)

Silmaril1 votes

I feel like Irelia can make any of her skills work. Okay, Q is iffy, but it's kinda good if you end up in a lot of situations where you have a hard time resetting the CD (especially if you expect a lot of jungle fights or extended chasing), W is her most common max, but it mostly benefits her if she goes for a lot of extended trades, E is good for matchups where you expect quick trades or have to play defensively, it's also good for cheesing squishies (and incidentally, it seems to perform slightly better than W max overall).

She's also the only champ where I don't normally max 2 skills in a row. I usually max W against melee champions and E against ranged champions or champions with a lot of mobility (like Riven), splash 2 extra points into Q, then max W/E, then finish off Q. It's probably a bronze af skill order, but in my experience with her, 14 seconds on her only gapcloser is way too long a CD to leave until level 13, but going all the way and maxing it doesn't decrease the CD enough from rank 3 doesn't give enough of a benefit to outweigh maxing W/E by that point. It seems to work the best for me at least, which I think is a pretty good sign that her skills are all balanced and useful among each-other.

Dominick Destine3 votes

Kog is finally doing well.

Stop complaining.

Rebonack2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=41gVEPKA,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-02-14T04:56:39.418+0000)

Kog is finally doing well.

Stop complaining.

As Kog main, my interest is less in Kog being strong than it is in Kog being healthy and filling his intended niche. He's over-tuned right now and still isn't filling his late game hyper-carry role. He's still at his best mid/late rather than late game, even though his success is over-inflated by how strong he is in general.

GhastlyGhoulMan3 votes

But all Kog wants to do is eat everything. And now he can.

Why would you take that away from him? You monster. [zombie-nunu-tears]

Rebonack6 votes

{quoted}

But all Kog wants to do is eat everything. And now he can.

Why would you take that away from him? You monster. [zombie-nunu-tears]

Add a new effect to Kog's Passive.

Kog'Maw may eat neutral critters on Summoner's Rift by clicking on them. They provide him absolutely no benefit, but at least he isn't as hungry anymore.

YCitizenSnipsY3 votes

The boards just a week ago. "Lol game too snowbally Kog can never reach late game status needs help." Riot address the complaint by help his early game and now, "LoL wtf Rito why break Kog."

These boards I swear.

Rebonack4 votes

{quoted}

The boards just a week ago. "Lol game too snowbally Kog can never reach late game status needs help." Riot address the complaint by help his early game and now, "LoL wtf Rito why break Kog."

These boards I swear.

The majority of the boards haven't the faintest clue what they want to see from the game.

Most Kog mains, however, have been asking for some combination of Kog's late game W scaling back, better W uptime tied to good plays on Kog's part, and/or more love for his AP build.

What Riot did instead was hyper-buff Kog's early/mid, resulting in the monster we've got on our hands now.

Kog was absolutely fine before Riot removed the total AD scaling on his W and replaced it with flat 2% max HP damage. Riot could have left his W alone and just tweaked his base HP a bit if he was too weak. But instead they had to fiddle with things that didn't need to be fiddled with.

Canastus2 votes

So when is it Cassio's turn for buffs?Cassiopeia

In this meta she doesn't even get to lategame anymore which leaves her in a pretty damn bad place performance-wise.

TheImpLord1 votes

Dude do you even read the forms? She is getting reworked in the immobile mages update mid year. And her ability to move and cast twin fangs has been buffed recently.

Canastus1 votes

The mage-update is going to take 6 more months, you can't be serious if you expect her to wait that long.

The QoL-change hardly affected her overall performance, her winrate remains disappointing (45%) while her pickrate has reached an all-time new low (1.22%). No one wants to play or even see this champion anymore in her current state.

Saianna1 votes

Good job Rebonack, you killed Ap Kog

If you want to share your idea of how to fix a champion, then be so kind and include all of his builds, not just the one you play.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

If you want to share your idea of how to fix a champion, then be so kind and include all of his builds, not just the one you play.

I've always played whichever form of Kog happens to work best for the situation at hand, be that AP Kog, ADC Kog, or weird hybrid things. This topic is about ADC Kog being too strong right now and is pitching a few ways to try to reign him in.

If Riot wants to make AP Kog feel less awful, all they need to do is give his Ult a flat AP ratio in the 0.5-0.6 range so his poke will be less anemic. Possibly bump his Q AP ratio back to 0.7. Maybe reduce his E and R mana cost a bit.

Saianna1 votes

Kogmaws %HP with AP ratio was also important for AP build.

And you want to change it into AD. How about it'd have both AD and AP scallings?

Everyone would be happy.

Rebonack4 votes

{quoted}

Kogmaws %HP with AP ratio was also important for AP build.

And you want to change it into AD. How about it'd have both AD and AP scallings?

Everyone would be happy.

Eerr...

No? That isn't what I was saying at all.

I said that it should be reverted back to a total AD ratio plus its AP ratio instead of being 2% base damage plus its AP ratio. The way Riot had it set up at the beginning of the remake was more true to the hyper-carry niche they want Kog to fill. Swapping it over to 2% base was the first step in the road to Kog getting his early/mid game over buffed.

Saianna1 votes

I'll be totally honest here:

I don't care what it used to be for super short period of time.

Kogs W had AP scalling for the longest part. If you wanna change it to help/balance Kog AD, then make sure his AP part won't get shafted.

ofart2 votes

{quoted}

I'll be totally honest here:

I don't care what it used to be for super short period of time.

Kogs W had AP scalling for the longest part. If you wanna change it to help/balance Kog AD, then make sure his AP part won't get shafted.

I assume he'd keep the AP ratio. It wouldn't make sense to remove it. If anything, he needs a higher AP ratio somewhere or lower mana costs.

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

Agreed. The way kog's rework has been handled has been comical. "We thought he'd be really OP so we released him really weak. Then we buffed him tiny amounts and that didn't work. So we decided to make him hilariously strong just so people would play him more."

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

Agreed. The way kog's rework has been handled has been comical. "We thought he'd be really OP so we released him really weak. Then we buffed him tiny amounts and that didn't work. So we decided to make him hilariously strong just so people would play him more."

The only explanation I can come up with is there's an internal division in the balance team over whether Kog should be a mid-game Marksmen or a late game hyper-scaler. I mean, yeah, either of those would work. It wouldn't hurt my feelings either way. But Riot really needs to be clear on what Kog is supposed to be.

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