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Opinion: Tanks should be able...

GigglesO··3 votes·534 views

to be unkillable. There I said it. I honestly think that tanks should be able to be unkillable at 6 item full tank build. I also however think that they should do literally 0 damage and hit like a wet noodle, and this is where I think the game went downhill. If someone wants to build full tank, let them be ignorable. Let players make the choice of how much damage they want, and what they want to do. That is what brought people to your game in the first place.

This game went from everyone being able to build tank (s1) to only if you are a god tier tank can you afford to not build damage.

What changed? Well a certain class (ranged adc's) did too well with tank items.... So we did what? We nerfed tank items. Tanks under preformed. So what did we do? We gave higher base damages on tanks to make them "relevant"!

What if I told you there was a strategy to being nigh unkillable while doing little damage? Well I guess it doesn't matter because the game isn't likely going to have anything be at all tanky ever again. But it feels like a death match right now. I feel like I'm playing Halo or Cod with one shot kills.

I guess this post is probably just a rant too, because fanboys of the new style of league. I guess it doesn't matter that all I'm really sad about is that they keep removing options every season, and this last season was tanking with anything other than a high damage tank (hello orn).

TLDR: You probably want to downvote because I'm promoting something that isn't "Much damage".

32 Comments

Ralanr5 votes

Honestly tanks being unkillable alone isn’t that fun for fighting against or even playing as.

If I’m unkillable, then I’m nothing more than a wall of meat who cannot do anything once left alone. If I cannot kill anyone, then why bother trying to peel me off your team when you could better focus on peeling champions that make use of my CC.

GigglesO1 votes

Let me explain it to you. There is a certain skill in knowing how much damage to tank you need. IF you do not need that much tank there are these items that give damage that you can build. I should at least have the option to be useless because I fucked up and built too much tank. There are also times when you would want to just be that meat shield absorbing skill shots for your teammates. Sure, YOU MIGHT NOT ENJOY IT, but that doesn't mean I don't.

Just because I like Rum, doesn't mean you can't like Vodka.

Ralanr2 votes

Yes I know of that skill, and it can be expressed by more than builds. Like knowing when to leave and re-enter a fight.

GigglesO1 votes

{quoted}

Like knowing when to leave

What is this being able to leave a fight of which you speak?

Ralanr2 votes

Simply walking away and dodging any attempt to pull you back in.

GigglesO1 votes

https://imgur.com/a/deuL3#WNIOdTp

This was even two seasons ago, damage has still only gotten higher in the last two seasons.

Ralanr2 votes

From what I see, You got pulled in by thresh and focused by everyone in a late game build.

Anyone squishy would have died instantly. You lasted long enough to attempt to run away.

GigglesO1 votes

I should have the option to be ignore able if only to bait the enemy into using everything on me though. This is about options. I want options when I play.

Ralanr2 votes

You want the option to be ignorable so that they enemy will waste everything on you?

They should get options to. Like to not waste so many abilities or to abuse a mistake you made.

GigglesO1 votes

Except its their mistake to not just ignore me, and they can abuse that fact that I made the mistake to be completely ignore-able.

Being able to ignore someone that over dedicated to tank items is contributing to the high damage death brawls that the game is having.

How do you purpose I split push? Catch someone out to assassinate someone? Oh yea I don't do those things, I'd be giving up other game play to have an option. My mistake would also then include not having a damage item or etc to be able to do damage.

If I tank up in lane they also can abuse that I have a tough time pushing, and roam to pick up kills. ADDING GAMEPLAY THAT ISN'T A SNOWBALL DEATHMATCH.

Ralanr3 votes

{quoted}

Except its their mistake to not just ignore me

But in the end, your mistake was bigger and easier to punish with your death.

And they can abuse the fact that I made the mistake to be completely ignore-able.

Yes, because it was easier to abuse.

How do you purpose I split push? Catch someone out to assassinate someone? Oh yea I don't do those things, I'd be giving up other game play to have an option. My mistake would also then include not having a damage item or etc to be able to do damage.

If you want to do those things maybe you shouldn’t have picked someone who is a teamfight focused champion that is bad at splitting

Yes choices are great, but classes are meant to limit your choices to emphasize a particular playstyle. If your champion choice didn’t actually matter for what you provide, then there would be no real variety (which is kind of the ADC problem).

When you picked Sejuani, you made a choice to be more teamfocused than split push or target elimination focused. You have to live with that choice.

GigglesO1 votes

{quoted}

Yes choices are great, but classes are meant to limit your choices to emphasize a particular playstyle.

EXACTLY! Which is why we need tanks that are nigh unkillable that need to make itemization choices to not be useless/ignore-able, but still have the option to be unkillable.

Ralanr2 votes

But then every tank will build damage because they have the options to be unkillable without the items.

At least that’s how I understand your latest post.

GigglesO1 votes

No, we need it to be controlled by the items, not the base stats. The way that classes factor in is that if you build full tank Caitlyn it won't have the same effect of full tank naut.

Naut has cc, and peel, Cait does not. One is infinitely more useful as tank.

We currently have mostly everything controlled by base damage/stats. Tanks deal enough damage that they can afford to build full tank, damage dealers have enough resists that they can afford to build pure damage.

Make itemization an actual skill again, and allow people to be useless by over committing to damage and being hyper killable, or over committing to tanking and being useless by not having any damage. In previous seasons you did have adc's building 1-2 defense items, normally Spirit visage/Banshess or Randuins.

Ren Amari2 votes

I mean look at WoW. Tanks are super rare to get into raid finder or dungeon finder (not that i used raid finder ever). But then again i have been agreeing with you for at least a year now. Soooo....

Ralanr4 votes

Though PVE games function differently from PVP games.

For all the PvP power in wow, it’s primarily a PVE game.

GankedByWindows2 votes

If you make them "ignorable" they're basically an AI. Nobody wants to play a role where they literally can't affect the game and can be ignored.

GigglesO1 votes

That is where players should be able to make a decision of where they want to jump off the tank item train. It shouldn't be forced by the god hand of riot. Just like it shouldn't be forced by the god hand of riot that adc's are ranged nukes.

Nalisai2 votes

What are you saying about support now? Xp

Seriously, I kinda like this idea. Maybe not zero damage, but if you only build armor, hp, and mr, there's no damage there, so why SHOULD you be doing any damage at that point? The answer to which is normally 'If I do enough damage I'll be able to distract people away like I'm supposed to', but most people don't realize that that's what CC is for. If Alistar's combo didn't do damage but knocked up for 1s and stunned for 1s you'd definately not want that around. Look at Morgana's Q and how annoying that is...3s stun? That's FOREVER! Right? BUT unless she drops her puddle under you, if you have basic MR items like merc treads, you won't take a ton of dmg from just her Q, it's the STUN that draws people's aggro.

Now JUGGERNAUTS are different. They are supposed to be buff AND do damage. Illaoi and Sion for example. Mr. needs a revert himself Aatrox. Etc. Supposed to be hard to kill and do damage. NOT AS MUCH as a marksman or assassin, who SHOULD be able to knock a person down fast (not necessarily instantly). Tanks should be on the low end of the damage spectrum.

HERE's the real problem - armor, MR, armor pen, and lethality aren't 1 for 1, so it's hard to know just what a given item is REALLY doing unless you're a math genius who can reverse engineer the damage and do the math knowing both characters stats at the time, etc.

What's wrong with this: Rammus builds 400 armor and has 3000 hp. Caitlyn builds 800 damage and has 50% crit, with 35% armor pen. Caitlyn shoots Rammus and does 800 dmg with 35% armor pen. Rammus takes (800 - 400) + (800x35%) = 680 total damage. Caitlyn shoots again and crits, doing (680 x 2)= 1320 damage. OW. Rammus has 200% health regen and regens (200% x current health regen mod) per sec (let's say no Warmog's first) 13 hp/s. All of this took 3s, so Rammus has gained back 39 hp. So Rammus in TWO SHOTS is at 1039 hp.

So, in reality, the real problem with tanks is that HEALTH REGEN SUCKS...unless you're Tryndamere or TahmKench or wearing item 3083 .

[zombie-brand-clap]

Ralanr2 votes

If tanks didn’t do damage then frankly ADCs should be forced to by sustain to survive a minion wave all game.

The extremes are frankly stupid.

Nalisai2 votes

They kind of are actually...how many ADC's don't buy at least one item with a item 1053 in it somewhere? I mean, unless they're going AS/Crit. This look familiar to anyone: item 3031 item 3006 item 3508 item 3085 item 3087 item 3094 ?

Personally, I'd rather go: item 3072 item 3006 item 3812 item 3046 item 3153, item 3091 or item 3156 ....

Ralanr2 votes

Not many from my experience. It’s mainly crit builds or lethality.

GigglesO1 votes

Which means that we are at an extreme for adc damage too. Where they don't need a sustain item. Most adc's don't even build a vamp scepter anymore.

Krully2 votes

% health damage on tanks is silly

AlienPrimate1 votes

I've always held the belief that everyone should do roughly the same damage to each other no matter what their build is.

Full damage vs full tank: both do a moderate amount of damage to each other Full damage vs full damage: expect who gets hit first to get blown up Full tank vs full tank: the fight will last forever because they regen more than the damage they can put out

This means that when team fights come around, the tank and the damage dealer can do the same damage to each other but if the damage dealer focusses on an enemy damage dealer they will kill them in under a second.

GigglesO2 votes

{quoted}

I've always held the belief that everyone should do roughly the same damage to each other no matter what their build is.

Full damage vs full tank: both do a moderate amount of damage to each other Full damage vs full damage: expect who gets hit first to get blown up Full tank vs full tank: the fight will last forever because they regen more than the damage they can put out

This means that when team fights come around, the tank and the damage dealer can do the same damage to each other but if the damage dealer focusses on an enemy damage dealer they will kill them in under a second.

Yea... except that full damage vs full tank looks more like

600 DPS vs 200 DPS Adc's don't even need to build their core tank destroy item to kill tanks right now. item 3035

Subdue1 votes

Would you buff tank damage to accomplish this?

GigglesO1 votes

I see it as a nerf tank damage, buff tank items. But don't buff those damage tank items, just the tank tank items.

Subdue2 votes

{quoted}

I see it as a nerf tank damage, buff tank items. But don't buff those damage tank items, just the tank tank items.

Netflix their damage, don't buff their scaling, and expect them to build damage so as not to be a wet noodle...

GigglesO1 votes

Maybe thats not what I quite said, but thats kinda what I was trying to say. That way its actually a decision point of "do I need more tank or more damage"

Scary Door1 votes

The problem with this point of view is that the game requires that damage ultimately outscale mitigation/defense, because if it did not then games could go on for 60-90 minutes or more. In fact, if we were to introduce your solution then there would be nothing to stop a team from building 5 tanks and pushing down mid in an unstoppable onslaught. Of course, the counter would be to have 5 tanks on the other side in which games would, as I mentioned, last for an interminable amount of time.

All of that having been said, I do think you should have to build damage to do damage, champions like Malphite are an ancient and, quite candidly, unhealthy design. One that builds armor and does more damage while gaining an incredible amount of mitigation.

Of course, this is all a moot point because damage in League is just far too excessive and has been for awhile; Riot has no plans to scale back damage in any meaningful way as this is the future of the game. Apparently this is what drives the e$port$ world now, so I think Riot is basically doing the exact opposite of what you're wanting them to do.

GigglesO1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Scary Door,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=41bBMEHJ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-03-14T16:42:42.165+0000)

The problem with this point of view is that the game requires that damage ultimately outscale mitigation/defense, because if it did not then games could go on for 60-90 minutes or more.

But we are pushing the agenda to such an extreme that the champions basically all feel the same. I did one full rotation and the enemy died, it doesn't even matter what champ I was playing.

In fact, if we were to introduce your solution then there would be nothing to stop a team from building 5 tanks and pushing down mid in an unstoppable onslaught. Of course, the counter would be to have 5 tanks on the other side in which games would, as I mentioned, last for an interminable amount of time.

How are they pushing if they don't deal damage? Even minions would be harder to clear at that point. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

All of that having been said, I do think you should have to build damage to do damage, champions like Malphite are an ancient and, quite candidly, unhealthy design. One that builds armor and does more damage while gaining an incredible amount of mitigation.

So, You don't think that champs should have to build damage to do damage? Lets see you build full tank Caitlyn, Jinx, Lucian? Doesn't work very well does it?

Of course, this is all a moot point because damage in League is just far too excessive and has been for awhile; Riot has no plans to scale back damage in any meaningful way as this is the future of the game. Apparently this is what drives the e$port$ world now, so I think Riot is basically doing the exact opposite of what you're wanting them to do.

It is too excessive, we don't even have fights anymore, we have a I launched my nuke before you launched yours game.

Edit: Just look at this S2 video (5 minutes), where kayle takes a Dianna q to the face and isn't automatically at half hp. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTtCBjoBYsQ

Damage is outrageous this season.

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