AMA Request: CertainlyT (Kalista, Yasuo, Thresh, Darius)

mi ramfan·Nov 21, 2014·44 votes·6,017 views

During his time with Riot Games, CertainlyT has become Riot's most aggressive and controversial champion designer. His designs are known for pushing the envelope and redefining just how much stuff can be packed into a champion's kit.

For the same reason, CertainlyT's designs have been highly controversial on the forums. Many of them are viewed as "overloaded" or "toxic" by players, and Yasuo, Thresh, and Darius have all been the victim of long series of nerfs at some point in their lifetimes. With all that said, however, CertainlyT's champions always have a completely different feel compared to other champions released in the same era, and question our assumptions of "what can possibly be balanced in League of Legends".

Can we get the man himself to talk about his design philosophy and discuss the future additions and reworks of League on Gameplay and Balance sometime?

56 Comments

AgidyneNov 21, 201418 votes

This game would be far more popular if every champ was designed by CertainlyT.

Stars ShaperNov 21, 20142 votes

Exactly my thought xD

serpensortia1Nov 21, 20141 votes

That may be true, but League exists as is with the older champs. New champions need to be made with older champs in mind, you can't just say, "Wouldn't it be fun if all champs were like this?" because not all champs are like that. New champions have to be able to coexist with old champs like Olaf and Morde. If all new champs are made with a lot in their kits, then old champs whose kits are focused on being very strong in one or two aspects get overshadowed. Sure the new champs are fun 'cause they can do anything, but then it's not fun to play against when using old champs where you just can't do as much as they can.

TulareNov 21, 20142 votes

I'm not so sure it's true that "new champions need to be made with older champs in mind". It is a fact that LoL has grown and changed since it was born. What is a suitable degree of mindfulness for older champions. It seems to be your opinion that they haven't been mindful enough. If older champs are less fun, though, then limiting themselves to the same design constraints that resulted in those champs could be shackling themselves to the mistakes of their own inexperience.

Consider Magic: The Gathering as an example. It took many years for them to figure out how to design with a consistent power level. Nowadays, there are cards from days past that would be considered completely unplayable. The game is better for the designers having recognized those cards as mistakes and making better cards, though. Likewise, as the champion roster grows, I expect new designs to reflect greater knowledge and experience. It would be awfully nice if older champs eventually get updates to benefit from that experience as well. Even if they don't, however, I'm happier to see the game grow and evolve rather than remain chained to its past.

manbearswineNov 21, 20146 votes

This game would be far more popular if every champ was designed by CertainlyT.

Not really,it would be basically Dota just without all the different actives on items to balance things out.

CertaintlyT champions are all "trap champions",the reason people like that is exactly the reason people hate them(well I'm mostly talking about kalista/yasuo/zed whereas thresh and darius have different,lesser issues),and if people would actually play to win it would create a situation where everyone suffers.

As to why everyone suffers: What would you pick if you were expecting a yasuo/kalista/zed pick?(note that they aren't limited to certaintlyT champs,fizz is another obvious example),basically something highly reliable either in defensive or offensive capabilities, annie,zilean,janna,kayle,ryze all come to mind,now there are two important things which these champions share: 1)Most people would consider them boring,and don't find playing them very enjoyable,the fact yasou/etc force people to play things they don't want to isn't very positive. 2)When properly countered by these champions the yasuo/kalista/zed players aren't having much fun either,there they just can't "cheat"(I like this term because skillshot reliability isn't balanced around their insane mobility, so the odds in such a matchup are heavily stacked in their favor) their way out of abilities,and in fact the binary nature of these champions isn't practicularly fun to play against as other things as well,but much better than playing as yasuo/etc vs them.

As it is they are fun because people enjoy hard countering matchups,they think to themselves "hurr durr I'm outplay lux she can't land a single thing on me she so bad lol im so gud",then when they get matched against annie/kayle "omfg fucking counter pickers why can't they pick something I can spam mobility to avoid all of their abilities".

So overall,They further invalidate champions who are already in a bad spot,they devolve gameplay by forcing highly reliable binary picks as other things simply do not work against them,people enjoy them because they enjoy rofl stomping people who pick off meta champions.

As to darius,ironically too binary,his kit doesn't have enough meaning he will just be some combination of a scary lane bully and jungler fodder,riot doesn't like champions who need to rely on being ganked to be handled,so he isn't allowed to be very strong.

Thresh is far too generalistic,has been overpowered since release,it's very hard to allow him to be strong without making him stronger than every other pick,which is mostly what he has been doing since release.

Raja ChachkiNov 22, 20142 votes

But the thing is, Yasuo isn't overpowered at all anymore....so can you take him off the list? He literally automatically loses lane until he gets 2 completed items...

The Red WardenNov 22, 20141 votes

Yet he is only in that state because of his latest nerf, before that happened all he needed to do to start carrying was buy static shiv because of his stupid number of passives.

With the huge armor pen on his ult and double crit passive he is simply too easy to snowball with. The ult means that buying armor is near useless and the double crit means that instead of actually having to buy lots of items to reach late game power he does it in one purchase.

Unless he remains extremely weak his overloaded kit will always leave him op.

manbearswineNov 22, 20141 votes

But the thing is, Yasuo isn't overpowered at all anymore....so can you take him off the list? He literally automatically loses lane until he gets 2 completed items...

First of all as a sort of disclaimer I am not too sure about yasuo current power level,though I tend to agree with you that he isn't overpowered anymore.

His kit is still hyper mobile nonsense which HAS to be counterpicked(though most meta champions work against it,which is tied to the reason why they are meta,these sort of champions devolve gameplay,focusing everything around themselves) either with some other hyper mobile nonsense or something highly reliable and binary,that will never change,he still facerolls skillshot reliant champions same as always,he cannot be removed from the list as the list is basically defined by champions who have an easy time avoiding skillshots,if yasuo isn't there then who is?

TehNACHONov 21, 201417 votes

I think the real problem is that champions like Yasuo exist in the same game as champions like Olaf.

There is a VERY clear level of depth/thought/tangible differences and what have you between the two champs, and this will always be present as long as CertainlyT's champions exist in the same space as these...less up to date champions.

I imagine one day in the very far future that champions at least on the level of Yasuo are par for the course for League of Legends, and champions like our current iteration of Olaf wouldn't even be imagined to be in the game.

MrBuffingtonNov 21, 20145 votes

I agree, I'm honestly more excited about the ChampUp team than new champions at this point; CertainlyT seems to be leading the charge in terms of offering interesting mechanics that allow for interesting play and counterplay (almost all of his designs are skill shot reliant), I really want to see how the rest of the roster is changed to keep up (Zenon's WW kit seemed awesome, hopefully they keep some aspects of it)

Pvt Yong TaiNov 21, 201410 votes

Yes, right here. It's not that he's creating bad champions, per se, but his design is way too far out there compared to the existing champs. It's cool that he's making all of these nice mechanics, but as I said in another post somewhere, these mechanics are causing other champions to be pushed off a ledge and forgotten in a dumpster (Mordekaiser being the prime example).

xl Kirito lxNov 21, 20141 votes

Why do people consider Mordekaiser to be weak? In exchange for lack of mobility, he has one of the strongest ults in the game. It's easily countered, but when it works, it wins fights on its own.

The Red WardenNov 22, 20143 votes

Yes his ult is powerful but in exchange you have the only champion in game without any mobility (speed boosts and dashes) or cc. His only function is a sometimes lane bully that is the easiest ganked champ in game.

I can pretty much garentee that if you took every pro player and gave them a choice of Morde or any other champ in this game, they would take the second choice simply because every other champ has more options when played than him.

He can't push without making a glowing sign of himself saying "kill me please". It doesn't matter how strong an ability is if the champion in every other respect is near useless. He can't even build tank since if he does, he would be literally be meaningless in fights due to no damage or cc.

snelly12Nov 22, 20141 votes

I guess you don't remember Overpow carrying a game as Morde two splits back :)

DUDE BRONov 22, 20144 votes

I think the main problem is Riot refusing to give minor updates to these old champions to make them feel good, and instead waiting years to fully rework them from the ground up while in the meantime they rot in the corner.

AmightyTNov 22, 20142 votes

Aren't they starting to do that right now with champions like Singed and Tristana?

AbodyHUN666Nov 23, 20141 votes

Actually they are doing those works right now, but they want the updates to really feel good and be balancable in the long run.

SiachiNov 21, 201413 votes

Eh; I think it'd be interesting to hear from any of the champion designers, though I'd worry if he started one, he'd just get a ton of toxic comments (Like generic, headhunting 'U SHUD B FIRD 4 DESE CHAMPZ' comments)

mi ramfanNov 21, 20145 votes

Well, there will be plenty of people asking legitimate questions, so all the people who are only there to get CertainlyT's head would probably be downvote buried.

AdgharKHNov 21, 20143 votes

CertainlyT? Stands for CertainlyToxic!

OblongOtterNov 21, 20146 votes

Actually it stands for certainly true damage, which he seems to have dropped from his champ designs after Darius.

DirewolfiezNov 22, 20142 votes

CertainlyTrippin' fits a lot better. Why else would he have given Kalista so much mobility?

KeevalroyNov 22, 20143 votes

He himself probably isn't toxic. His champions on the other hand are a different story.

KingsgraveNov 21, 201413 votes

I think he just needs to rework stuff like Olaf. I would love to see him on the Rework team tearing it up instead of solely making crazy champions all the time.

SlackerboyTCNov 21, 20143 votes

I think he just needs to rework stuff like Olaf. I would love to see him on the Rework team tearing it up instead of solely making crazy champions all the time.

I can drink to that

Sir ArmaMalumNov 21, 201410 votes

I think it's mainly he brings in the most noticeable new mechanics to the game. It started small with Darius' ult reset and damage on bleed stacks. We had ult resets before (Akali) but they were always more of a fourth spell than a true blue ultimate until darius. Then there was Thresh lantern, Yasuo windwall and Kalista's.....well, everything. Personally I would just like to know here he gets his ideas and how he decides whether X or Y new mechanic is currently possible. I'm assuming he has a good amount of game engine experience to know what's possible and what's not.

mi ramfanNov 21, 20143 votes

I tend to agree with this. He's got a very clear vision of what he wants to do, and he pushes the game to its limits in the process.

Part of the reason I'm interested in an AMA by him is to see what did and didn't make it into his champions, and what other solutions he tried to the problems he started with.

ArtoriusIVNov 22, 20141 votes

I know for a fact that Kallista used to have a tp on her W to one of the minions on the map if it spotted an enemy...

rtbf209142555Nov 22, 20142 votes

i don't believe that for a second lol

YawnliNov 21, 201410 votes

i like his champs

exiledFromBadmenNov 21, 20143 votes

Same

DirewolfiezNov 22, 20146 votes

I don't like playing against his champs...

CanastusNov 21, 20146 votes

Could we please get him to do the Cass rework? She's unplayable since Stashu finished gutting her, she really could use a fresh infusion of #LCSBIGPLAYS right now. No, really - someone ask him.

Grand ElevenNov 22, 20142 votes

The tale of two passives ...

Grand ElevenNov 22, 20144 votes

Meanwhile ...

item 3070 Cassiopeia

Stars ShaperNov 21, 20143 votes

So he designed some of the strongest champions in the roster. I guess that's a plus to him.

mi ramfanNov 21, 20147 votes

Not necessarily the strongest champions on the roster (although Yasuo was very strong for a long time and Thresh is still very, very good). Saying he's the designer of the most groundbreaking champions in League of Legends is probably more accurate; for example, the success of Thresh's lantern as a team utility skill as opposed to a trolling tool is probably what opened the door to Kalista's Soulbound mechanic, and Yasuo's dash spam is a definite precursor to Kalista's passive.

BITE ZA DUSTONov 22, 20143 votes

[deleted]

KeevalroyNov 22, 20144 votes

and if he could create more of them i think that a lot of people would enjoy it.

I think even more people would enjoy it if there were no further champions from him until he figures out just how unbelievably rage-inducing his creations are, and take the steps to calm the hell down on the passives and obnoxious kits.

Eve The RipperNov 21, 20142 votes

As much as I'd love to see this, I think people would be too mean to him :<

MrBuffingtonNov 21, 20142 votes

Yea I'd like to see this once the Kalista hype dies down a bit...

Then again, people still complain about Yasuo, so....

mi ramfanNov 21, 20141 votes

I think there's a certain class of people who would be excessively mean to him, and they have a right to say what they want to say too. Luckily, those types of people probably wouldn't be asking too many questions.

Xion MoonrayNov 23, 20142 votes

You call it "pushing the envelope" I call it "design creep." Look at Kalista. Now look at Ashe. Why in the name of James Woods would I every pick a champion as bare-bones as Ashe? Design creep was something that was going to happen anyways, but CertailyT revels in it.

Bear in mind, I'm not talking about "power creep," although the two are intrinsically linked, design creep refers to the way newer champions are far more complex than older champions.

HellioningNov 22, 20141 votes

CertainlyT's champs are certainly very fun; the sheer number of people who want to play Yasuo/Zed/Thresh should indicate that. However, I feel he makes two huge mistakes in his champ design (either that or the people who balance his champs make the mistakes): He undervalues mobility and seems to add random stats to his champs to make them 'good'

So mobility should be obvious. Kalista gets a dash after every auto, Yasuo is can have up to 7 dashes in a laning environment, Zed gets two gapclosers and can jump back to each one. However, I don't feel they particularly pay for this mobility in most ways. Kalista's relatively weak early game, when her auto is incredibly long, but as she gets attack speed that stops becoming an issue. Yasuo's squishy as hell nowadays, but that's because he has a personal shield that he doesn't have to do anything for besides 'move' and his windwall, which can completely shut down some champs. Zed can put down a load of damage on you and be out before you can kill him. (Though I feel Zed's a special case, in that he's even more binary than most assassins. Laning against Zed is incredibly painful after six if you can't counter-burst or escape from him, but when you buy a Zhonya's, you can completely shut him down.) That's not new for Riot, though, so I am loathe to apply that specifically to CertainlyT.

My major problem with CertainlyT's champs is that they get a lot of things in a single kit. In addition to a vision spell that's about equal to Ashe and Quinn, Kalista gets % max hp magic damage. Zed gets free AD, and runs off of energy. Thresh has one of the only ally reposition spells in the game, plus a stun, plus a minor knockback, plus a giant slow, and can get to much higher levels of armor than a normal tank support can. Darius gets all three damage types and armor pen, for some reason. Yasuo gets two passives, one of which is the stupidest in the game, plus free bonus armor penetration on his ult (which isn't that hard to activate, in a game with as many displacements as League.)

By themselves, either of those things is annoying, but manageable. It's when they're combined that I start to have an issue.

DaCushNov 22, 20141 votes

Honestly, I would love past champs to be updated and champs like ceetainlyt's champs to keep coming out. They have extremely unique kits that are absolutely the most fun to play. And I don't mean that thwy are fun cause they are overloaded in anyway but because they offer a lot more fun and diversity in how you can play the champs compared to old ones

SkiasNov 22, 20141 votes

Much as I dislike CertainlyT's champs, this is just an invitation to get flamed on stage in front of the community.

DirewolfiezNov 22, 20141 votes

Why does everyone think that people are going to flame him? I don't have any respect for the guy, but I'd at least try to be polite when I ask him the questions he should be asked. Can't speak for anyone else, but I don't hate the guy, I just don't think he shouldn't lead champ design.

The Red WardenNov 22, 20141 votes

That was 2 years ago though, lets see someone do it now with how much more common mobility is.

AmightyTNov 22, 20141 votes

Still better than Stashu