The most successful Ashe's apparently don't even use E

youngjake93·Jun 9, 2015·19 votes·4,063 views

Champion.gg - Ashe ADC Stats, Builds, Runes, Masteries and Counters

If you don't even level up E at all, your win rate jumps from 55% up to 58%. I wonder why. Is it because most people forget to use hawkshot, even on the plat+ level? Is it because global short term wards aren't that powerful? Maybe levels in Q and W are just worth that much more? http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/skills-orders/ashe/adc/platinum Your win rate is even lower if you get E on level 3 instead of leveling up W a second time.

45 Comments

KMannnnn1Jun 9, 201510 votes

More specific builds tend to have crazier win rates, because of a lot of statistical biases that get introduced by the specificity. It's not an actual gameplay problem with the ability, because vision is OP, it's just how the numbers happened to work out.

youngjake93Jun 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

More specific builds tend to have crazier win rates, because of a lot of statistical biases that get introduced by the specificity. It's not an actual gameplay problem with the ability, because vision is OP, it's just how the numbers happened to work out.

Globally, E on level 4 is chosen about the same as E on level 3 with a 5 million game sample size(1.25 million for each of those skill orders). It's a 1.4% difference in win rate if you look at those numbers. It seems that levels in Ashe's W are worth significantly more than global vision. http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/skills-orders/ashe/adc/all

Earl EulrichJun 9, 20154 votes

which shouldnßt shock anyone, vision that early in the game is less deceiding than lane-pressure most of the time + vision in SoloQ is generally worth less than in 5v5, as most players wonßt play around it well anyway.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbJun 10, 20151 votes

I'd guess that most players don't use it to its full potential and that its use in solo q is less powerful than it could be, whereas taking that extra point in volley can help you win lane.

MVDuneCatsJun 9, 20157 votes

This could be a case where players didn't win more because they used that skill order, but instead they chose that skill order in games where they (or their team) were already doing so well that the extra vision from hawkshot wasn't necessary (and the early lead turns into an even bigger lead as the game goes on, and results in the higher win rate).

youngjake93Jun 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

This could be a case where players didn't win more because they used that skill order, but instead they chose that skill order in games where they (or their team) were already doing so well that the extra vision from hawkshot wasn't necessary (and the early lead turns into an even bigger lead as the game goes on, and results in the higher win rate).

This could be the case. For example, I've noticed that early homeguards usually have atrociously low win rates, but being forced to buy homeguards as a 2nd or 3rd item usually means you are already losing pretty badly.

MVDuneCatsJun 10, 20154 votes

Similarly, when I check on a champ's stats on champion.gg, I often see offensive item as the first finished item, followed by boots, followed by a 2nd offensive item as the most common build order. Meanwhile, the highest win rate build order is the same two offensive items as 1-2, followed by boots third.

I interpret that as players who are snowballing can afford to get their 2nd offensive item earlier. And players tend to have higher win rates in games where they snowball early compared to game where they don't.

fractalfantasiesJun 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This could be a case where players didn't win more because they used that skill order, but instead they chose that skill order in games where they (or their team) were already doing so well that the extra vision from hawkshot wasn't necessary (and the early lead turns into an even bigger lead as the game goes on, and results in the higher win rate).

This is perfectly valid in the same way some champions are not OP but can have really high winrates because they hard counter certain teams.

Rammus (vs full ad teams) for example

DreadlocksJun 9, 20157 votes

55.88% Win Rate | 36146 Games 58.31% Win Rate |** 2922 Games**

sample size plays a big part too.

youngjake93Jun 10, 20154 votes

{quoted}

55.88% Win Rate | 36146 Games 58.31% Win Rate |** 2922 Games**

sample size plays a big part too.

You act as if 3000 games are not significant.. It's not like someone tried something out twice, won both times and shouted OP on the boards. 3000 games is a pretty large sample size.

DreadlocksJun 10, 20151 votes

so is 36,000 lol

youngjake93Jun 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

so is 36,000 lol

Exactly. 3000 games is enough to assume 58% win rate is pretty dang accurate. 36146 games is enough to say 55.88% win rate is EXTREMELY accurate. It is very unlikely to be more than 1% off the true statistic with a sample size of 3000, so you can kinda conclude that waiting until level 13 to put a point in E results in a 2-4% win rate buff. I mean if you play a champion 100 times, you'd assume your win rate with that champ is pretty accurate by then. 3000 is 30 times more accurate than that.

DreadlocksJun 10, 20151 votes

My point is, it may be 58.31% after 3000 games, but after 36,000 games it could easily go to 55.88%, I'm not saying that the statistic is invalid or that the build is wrong. Simply saying I don't think leaving E without a point is going to make a huge influence compared to if you did put a point in. And only having a 2.5% difference proves that.

TL;DR yes its acceptable to leave your E with zero points, but that doesn't guarantee a greater chance of winning.

fractalfantasiesJun 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

My point is, it may be 58.31% after 3000 games, but after 36,000 games it could easily go to 55.88%, I'm not saying that the statistic is invalid or that the build is wrong. Simply saying I don't think leaving E without a point is going to make a huge influence compared to if you did put a point in. And only having a 2.5% difference proves that.

TL;DR yes its acceptable to leave your E with zero points, but that doesn't guarantee a greater chance of winning.

Assuming a normal distribution, it could easy go up to 61%, this post has absolutely no purpose.

MVDuneCatsJun 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

My point is, it may be 58.31% after 3000 games, but after 36,000 games it could easily go to 55.88%...

If players blindly copy this order believing it will raise their win rates, I could see that happening. Players shouldn't just copy a skill order without understanding why it works, and what kind of games a particular order works out better in.

Also, the sample size might only be ~3k games because it only includes games where Ashe reached level 18. If bot lane is snowballing hard early on, the Ashe player might choose to skip E altogether. And if the enemy team forfeits when she's still level 15 to 17, that data wouldn't be included in this sample set.

fractalfantasiesJun 10, 20152 votes

The amount of retarded shit I hear when people talk about statistics.

36,000 is a bigger sample size than 3,000, so all this means is that we can be more certain that the true mean when leveling your e is close to 55% than we can be that the true mean when not leveling your e is 58%.

This said, we can still be pretty damn confident that the true mean when when you leave your e unleveled is close to 58%.

There is no reason to assume if you were to take more samples of people not leveling their e, it would trend downwards unless there is some specific explanation as to why that figure is 58% which doesn't hold in most games.

DrNovaJun 9, 20153 votes

Its basically a ward, or similar to that vision summoner spell. If you and suppport are warding, why use it when you can get something with damage instead.

I assume anyways

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20153 votes

youre realizing this now?

since the rework ive never put a point into the e during the lane phase. at least very early on. sticking to w and q gives you more power in trades.

in solo que you can do without hawkshot for a while, if you just keep warding.

ProfDrDeathJun 9, 20153 votes

Basically, solo queue teams are too uncoordinated, especially between botlane and jungler, to make the best use out of Hawkshot. And unlike Kalista's or Quinn's vision ability, Ashe's hawk has no direct combat benefit attached to it, making you lose a modicum of direct combat power by leveling it early.

In coordinated play, though, it is a very different story.

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Basically, solo queue teams are too uncoordinated, especially between botlane and jungler, to make the best use out of Hawkshot. And unlike Kalista's or Quinn's vision ability, Ashe's hawk has no direct combat benefit attached to it, making you lose a modicum of direct combat power by leveling it early.

In coordinated play, though, it is a very different story.

agreed.

in actual teams, her e is much more valuable, as teams coordinate themselves better. in solo que its hard to get your mid and jungler (to drop wraiths) to move down to take dragon, even if you just forced a recall on the enemy bot lane and their jungler is ganking top.

windows of opportunities are often short and everyone takes his sweet time to react to changes on the map, which diminishes the strategical value of vision early on.

SymbolicFearJun 9, 20152 votes

I always use E, although, I don't get it early unless asked beforehand by my jungler, that way, the jungler can counter jungle much more effectively, and even pull off some early surprise attacks in the enemy jungle. Its extremely useful, you just have to know how to build Ashe, and how to play her to her max effectiveness. In other words, its all about dat Q baby.

ZarxisJun 9, 20152 votes

It's quite common to take a second level in one of your first two abilities rather than add one point to a third ability. Having only two abilities can mean more damage done in early trades (before you want to all-in with 3 abilities) when your opponent isn't roaming and shouldn't be leaving the lane for fear of being behind in levels/CS, and you'll save mana.

I'm not sure what's so amazing about Ashe not taking a point in her E at level 3; she goes to bottom lane. She and her support can keep up trinket wards (or a real ward or two, if the support buys them) while they wait for Ashe to reach level 4; taking E at 3 would be risking bottom lane's success (long-term game success) on a slow-moving version of Clairvoyance.

youngjake93Jun 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It's quite common to take a second level in one of your first two abilities rather than add one point to a third ability. Having only two abilities can mean more damage done in early trades (before you want to all-in with 3 abilities) when your opponent isn't roaming and shouldn't be leaving the lane for fear of being behind in levels/CS, and you'll save mana.

I'm not sure what's so amazing about Ashe not taking a point in her E at level 3; she goes to bottom lane. She and her support can keep up trinket wards (or a real ward or two, if the support buys them) while they wait for Ashe to reach level 4; taking E at 3 would be risking bottom lane's success (long-term game success) on a slow-moving version of Clairvoyance.

Well, my point was that the highest Ashe win rates come when you don't even put a point into E until level 13 when it forces you to pick E. I mainly just used the level 3 and 4 example because there is a much larger sample size.

theragingnerdJun 9, 20152 votes

WAIT SHE HAS A DAMN 55% WIN PERCENT?????? HOLYSHIT RITO PLS I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT IT WAS JUST ME WHO THOUGHT ASHE WAS OP

Bodkins OddsJun 9, 20152 votes

The worst part? That's basically what her winrate was before her update. Of course, her pick rate has gone up a bit...

LuggJun 9, 20151 votes

I totally agree. E isn't even needed until you have to check Baron and Dragon mid/late game.

YourSh4dowJun 9, 20151 votes

Except in most games dragon falls around 7th minute which is right around lvl 5 or 6.

LuggJun 9, 20151 votes

If they have someone who can take it early, your jungler or supp should be warding it.

GundayMondayJun 9, 20151 votes

I feel like that's a missed opportunity. Sure you get more damage with an extra point in W. But one point in E (which is global) can let you sweep the entire enemy jungle, which reveals most of the enemy camps if you angle well. Even if you only sweep one half of the enemy jungle, that lets your jungler and teammates know what side of the map the enemy is on, and also gives you timers on their camps. You can do this every 90s with no cdr, which means you can always tell where the enemy jungler is. Wondering if people haven't figured this out, or if junglers aren't good enough to use the extra intel.

TheGrandAllianceJun 9, 20151 votes

It is because pros are noobs and don't know what they are missing out... until ASHE wins Worlds in 2015 this cannot be disputed.

LostFr0stJun 9, 20151 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Jayce <-- the reason why he has pbe changes http://champion.gg/champion/Anivia <-- how does wall help you in lane

I'm sure that there are plenty more.

I get hawkshot when the teams start to group, not before-- unless the enemy team has a jungle eve that I have to track.

-LostFr0st

ChaoticPineconeJun 9, 20151 votes

i do this a lot on champions with a spell that i dont feel like i need. Lux, Morg, Ziggs, WW, Diana, Malz, Viktor, Veigar, Garen, Akali...

MVDuneCatsJun 10, 20151 votes

I don't have much (or any) experience with most of those champs except for Warwick and Garen. I could see skipping W on Garen. What ability do you skip with Warwick?

ChaoticPineconeJun 10, 20151 votes

Blood Scent (E).

YourSh4dowJun 9, 20151 votes

I get E on lvl 4(if doing well but feeling getting threatened by enemy jungle) or 5 and max it last. Its one of those 1 point wonders.

But I am silver scrub what do I know.

ImHerVoiceJun 9, 20151 votes

yeah you didn't know? You don't level E lol Infact if you have E its waste of huge damage spike at level 3 lol

Drunk RummateJun 9, 20151 votes

That's crazy. I honestly think people just aren't using it properly then. You should be checking the enemy buff/gromp/krugs pretty much on cooldown to see if you can spot enemy jungler positioning.

Silents429Jun 9, 20151 votes

Yeah I don't agree with that, being able to essentially view the entire enemy half of the map is godlike, I have kept an enemy jungler in vision most of the laning phase by using it.

The LovelessJun 10, 20151 votes

dont agree with it, but look what wins games more

Silents429Jun 10, 20153 votes

It doesn't mean jackshit, it's a Utility spell that you have no reason to have to level up, it's as useful at rank 1 as rank 5 No duh the damage spells are going to be higher priority on a ADC, and no matter what there is always going to be an ability not being leveled up as much on EVERY champion.

youngjake93Jun 10, 20153 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't mean jackshit, it's a Utility spell that you have no reason to have to level up, it's as useful at rank 1 as rank 5 No duh the damage spells are going to be higher priority on a ADC, and no matter what there is always going to be an ability not being leveled up as much on EVERY champion.

But that's the point... If you can get al of the usability from the spell by spending only 1 point, you would think waiting until level 13 to spend that first point would give you a lower win rate, not a higher one.

DaxterrJun 10, 20151 votes

Hah! I knew I was doing the right thing. Screw you team !

lxlLilybellelxlJun 10, 20151 votes

dat ashe support tho don't forget her secondary role!!

SunriseSkaterKidJun 11, 20151 votes

Another thing about hawkshot that not many people take note is that it shoots in a straight line. If you see a Hawkshot go into baron pit you can easily pinpoint the general area that the enemy ashe is coming from which allows you to set up an ambush and catch her out. It works all the time in ranked 5's