You did it with Zed, now do it with other champs.

Shac Norris·Apr 21, 2016·9 votes·1,082 views

''However, what this change allows us to do is create debuff-focused champions that don't have their kits completely negated with an item purchase and press of a button.''

What about those 2 champs, which can be COMPLETLY countered with only the active of a free item FOR 10 SECONDS.

Those 2 champs in particular take time to set up their traps, putting them behind in gold, and then someone just activates a trinket and it just negate the whole thing. How fair is that?

Zed was being countered with a single item, and it wasn't fair (he'll probably get nerfed for it too, hopefully), but i don't see anyone standing up for those 2 champs. I tried, but i only got downvotes from the community.

So what's preventing you from fixing this, Riot?

If you want to go in that direction, fix all other champs which are being countered at the press of a button. Not only 1.

35 Comments

AlwaysByMySideApr 21, 20165 votes

QSS is a one button press, surefire way to force Zed to waste his ult and put in on cooldown if he uses it on you.

Sweeping shrooms and jack in the boxes isn't as sure a thing, since there might not be any nearby, and more importantly they can just plant some more since both abilities have short cooldowns.

Shaco's W in particular is just a basic ability.

See, it isn't that QSS countered his ult, it's that it kept him from being able to do his job once the ADC got it.

The comparison isn't valid.

Shac NorrisApr 21, 20161 votes

Sure, i'll just place some more 10-15s cd traps during a teamfight since the enemy just disabled 4 of them with his free item while fighting my team.

You also assume that the enemies will just activate the item even if they don't know if there's anything? Comon man, nobody is that stupid. When 2 teams are near each others, the enemy team will ALWAYS activate their trinket, to make sure the zone is clear, and to negate enemy vision on their team, that's just common knowledge.

Logic.

My favorite gameplay mechanic with Shaco was kiting the enemies with boxes until they arrived in the main trap (2-3 boxes) so that one or more enemies would have lower hp, and then charging them with item 3800 for a quick cleanup.

Now i can't do anything with any invisible trap, since as soon as 1 pop up, they just activate their damned free item and delete them all in a second, wasting 40 seconds of my time in which i could have went CSing or counter jungling etc.

Also, Teemo's traps are his ultimate, not a ''basic ability'' right?

AlwaysByMySideApr 21, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shac Norris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3w3R0OdE,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-04-21T23:10:49.461+0000)

Sure, i'll just place some more 10-15s cd traps during a teamfight since the enemy just disabled 4 of them with his free item while fighting my team.

Logic.

My favorite gameplay mechanic with Shaco was kiting the enemies with boxes until they arrived in the main trap (2-3 boxes) so that one or more enemies would have lower hp, and then charging them with for a quick cleanup.

Now i can't do anything with any invisible trap, since as soon as 1 pop up, they just activate their damned free item and delete them all in a second, wasting 40 seconds of my time in which i could have went CSing or counter jungling etc.

Also, Teemo's traps are his ultimate, not a ''basic ability'' right?

Ah I see, I discovered your problem.

You're trying to team fight with Shaco and Teemo.

Shac NorrisApr 21, 20162 votes

Am i not allowed to?

Wtf is your argument on that one?

Literally name me ONE valid reason why those 2 champs should not be allowed to participate in teamfights.

AlwaysByMySideApr 21, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shac Norris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3w3R0OdE,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-21T23:16:02.304+0000)

Am i not allowed to?

Wtf is your argument on that one?

Literally name me ONE reason why those 2 champs should not be allowed to participate in teamfights.

Because their strengths lie elsewhere.

You can obviously team fight, but why should you be good at it?

Shac NorrisApr 21, 20163 votes

Yeah, how DARE i even think about using one of my abilities to set up a teamfight, how DARE I! What a monster i am!

Seriously, no.

AlwaysByMySideApr 21, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shac Norris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3w3R0OdE,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-21T23:21:07.890+0000)

Yeah, how DARE i even think about using one of my abilities to set up a teamfight, how DARE I! What a monster i am!

Seriously, no.

By all means, try to set up for a team fight, just don't complain when players use one of the only avenues of counterplay against that ability.

You don't see me being a little girl over Teemo being able to bully many melee top laners with little to no counterplay top lane, why do you find it so hard to accept that your champions' strengths don't lie in their ability to set up for a team fight?

Shac NorrisApr 21, 20161 votes

By all means, try to set up for a team fight, just don't complain when players use one of the only avenues of counterplay against that ability.

Yeah, how dare i complain about an item that completly shit on Teemo's laning phase, teamfighting, and pressure how DARE I, what a monster I AM, GOD!

GOD SMITE ME NOW, i dared try to make my champions viable again!

Seriously, if your only argument is ''stop playing x champion because an item completly counters him, and don't complain on the boards when you're tired of it, lel!'' then you need to use your brain and think about it for a few moments, then come back.

Oh wait, i need to dumb it up a little more for you. I see that you're level 3 with Tryn so i'll use him in my example. If the was an item that completly disabled your ultimate, would you complain about it? Would you think it's unfair that Tryndamere is allowed to get countered by a single item, since his strenght lies in not dying for 5 seconds? Exactly.

AlwaysByMySideApr 22, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shac Norris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3w3R0OdE,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-21T23:33:14.583+0000)

Yeah, how dare i complain about an item that completly shit on Teemo's laning phase, teamfighting, and pressure how DARE I, what a monster I AM, GOD!

You're really whiny.

Also, I frankly should stop responding after I saw you say that the upgraded sweeper shits on Teemo's laning phase. They can't even get it until level 9.

GOD SMITE ME NOW, i dared try to make my champions viable again!

They are viable, Teemo a bit less so.

Seriously, if your only argument is ''stop playing x champion because an item completly counters him, and don't complain on the boards when you're tired of it, lel!'' then you need to use your brain and think about it for a few moments, then come back.

I didn't say that. I said that Teemo and Shaco's strengths don't lie in team fighting, so you should You're not very smart, are you?

Oh wait, i need to dumb it up a little more for you. I see that you're level 3 with Tryn so i'll use him in my example. If the was an item that completly disabled your ultimate, would you complain about it? Would you think it's unfair that Tryndamere is allowed to get countered by a single item, since his strenght lies in not dying for 5 seconds? Exactly.

There is no item that completely disables Teemo's ultimate, not in the same way it disables Zed's. More importantly, there is no item that completely takes away Teemo's ability to do his job, like there currently is for Zed. It's a false comparison, as I said.

Are you seriously saying that Shaco is completely countered by the upgraded sweeping lens because it makes his boxes visible? Lol.

Also, ignite severely impacts the effectiveness of Tryndamere's ultimate if used properly.

Calm down.

Zero Skill TankApr 22, 20161 votes

I said that Teemo and Shaco's strengths don't lie in team fighting, so you should You're not very smart, are you?

Neither does Zed's strengths, good Zed splitpushes all the time he is allowed to.

There is no item that completely disables Teemo's ultimate, not in the same way it disables Zed's.

There is no item that completely disables Zed's ultimate. Dash, untargetability and blink stay.

More importantly, there is no item that completely takes away Teemo's ability to do his job, like there currently is for Zed.

Zed can still jump in, dish out 2/3rd of his burst, blink out and keep dishing out his DPS. There is a reason why his DPS is higher than other AD assassins and why he has almost infallible mechanism. Unlike other assassins who die uselessly if they don't kill their target, Zed is still of great use for his team. "Kill your target or you didn't do your job" applies to other assassins but not to Zed.

BeldairApr 24, 20161 votes

Teemo and Shaco aren't supposed to set up teamfights, the tank/support is supposed to. Teemo and Shaco are supposed to use their sneakiness and burst to take down priority targets like the adc or mid laner. They are great duelists not team fight set ups.

Shac NorrisApr 25, 20161 votes

The way I used to play him (and with much success) was by kiting the enemies down a lane (or jungle) and making them activate my traps all at once so that we would charge in and clean them up fairly easily as they were getting feared.

Shaco's boxes are also really good for peeling your enemies off your carries.

BeldairApr 25, 20161 votes

Exactly, kiting not setting up.

Shac NorrisApr 25, 20161 votes

You don't set them up when the enemies can see, it would be quite a waste, you have to take time before potential teamfights to place your traps, i prefer placing them in a V shape, so that when the enemies are advancing (tanks first, then squishies) they will almost always walk in a V position. Then if it's successful, you just feared their entire team for 1.5s and they're taking damage, that's when you go in and clean up.

It's quite a fun way to play Shaco. I just couldn't play it recently because of RIOT's dumb tank meta.

ArlanKelsApr 21, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3w3R0OdE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-04-21T23:06:14.176+0000)

QSS is a one button press, surefire way to force Zed to waste his ult and put in on cooldown if he uses it on you.

Sweeping shrooms and jack in the boxes isn't as sure a thing, since there might not be any nearby, and more importantly they can just plant some more since both abilities have short cooldowns.

Shaco's W in particular is just a basic ability.

See, it isn't that QSS countered his ult, it's that it kept him from being able to do his job once the ADC got it.

The comparison isn't valid.

This. All of this. Very well done Meme :p

BeldairApr 21, 20162 votes

If you made it where the traps/shrooms weren't visible from sweeping lens, then they would have 0 counter play.

Shac NorrisApr 21, 20161 votes

Make it so that they're visible, not completly useless, as of now, they stop working AND are revealed for 10 seconds.

Shaco's traps are also hit 1 hit by everything (except maybe Janna's W), so how is that fair..?

At least Teemo's shrooms have hope to survive this, with their 3 hit policy.

BeldairApr 21, 20163 votes

Apparently y'all forget that Sweeping Lens has a long CD.

And I have fought against and beside a Teemo and Shaco and haven't seen an issue with the current system.

Shac NorrisApr 21, 20161 votes

''But meh it has a long CD''

It takes Shaco 1 minute to set up a trap zone. ((5-6 traps)with 45% cdr i mean)

If you have no vision of Shaco for 1 minute, then you know he's up to something. Or your team is just really bad and doesnt put any ward down.

BeldairApr 22, 20161 votes

That would be the case for any champ in lane or jungle. Shaco and Teemo aren't special with that case.

Shac NorrisApr 24, 20161 votes

Did you just ignore the whole point of this thread?

I'm talking about invisible traps. NOT every champion.

BeldairApr 24, 20161 votes

And the only counter play to them is the Sweeping Lens.

Shac NorrisApr 24, 20161 votes

The counterplay in question is too harsh, those champs take way too much time just to place those traps, placing them behind in GOLD and in EXP, yet all it takes is a single free item (usually 1-2 players build it per game) and they ALL get disabled for 10s each, making you lose the potential teamfight advantage.

There's no point in playing teemo right now with these trinkets.

BeldairApr 24, 20161 votes

Again...said trinket has a long cooldown and they can place their "traps" more often than a person can sweep for them.

And if a teemo or shaco is spending more time placing their traps than farming, then they are doing something wrong.

You are basically putting too much emphasis on 1 ability. Both champs offer more than their traps.

Teemo has his poison and blind while Shaco has his invis and burst. Both can dish out a ton of damage without relying so much on their traps.

Zero Skill TankApr 21, 20164 votes

It doesn't matter, as 2 people on team can get it easily. It completely invalidates use of traps to secure objective attempt or aid your team in combat.

Same logic applies here as to Zed and QSS - Zed is allowed to be broken early-mid because of lategame QSS. Teemo is allowed to shroom half of your jungle, because with sweeper that's the only thing he can do with sweepable shrooms. He can't use them to protect himself from ganks, he can't use them in teamfight, he can't help secure objectives with it. He can only use them for map control - what is the most toxic use. Would shrooms be unsweepable, their uptime could be reduced even to say 1.5 minutes allowing for local zone control instead of making walking though the map a nightmare.

Shac NorrisApr 21, 20162 votes

Thank you.

Finally someone who understands.

BeldairApr 22, 20161 votes

And yet, it is usually only the support that gets Sweeping Lensm

YCitizenSnipsYApr 22, 20161 votes

I mean you realize they have to nerf Zed now right? A rioter has basically confirmed that this is going to happen. So you want Teemo and Shaco nerfed?

Zero Skill TankApr 22, 20161 votes

It doesn't matter, nerfed, but "un-mercurable" Zed is still likely to be stronger than before, and so would be nerfed, but "un-sweepable" Teemo. I even wrote in my post how they could drastically reduce shroom uptime after this change.

Only difference between Teemo and Zed situation is that Teemo would actually be healthier champion after this change - shrooming half the map is the worst thing he does. Zed won't, he will lose one counter item, and still be allowed to s@#t on every mage without direct counterplay pattern, because this is literally his only advantage over other assassins, and thus won't be removed.

LaserDeathBladeApr 22, 20162 votes

Teemo and Shaco still do a lot even if you sweep them lol

Shac NorrisApr 24, 20161 votes

Replace Shaco with any other champ and you get more. And they won't get their whole kit countered by a free item.

Zero Skill TankApr 21, 20161 votes

Sweeper should only disable traps that were armed during it's time of activation. It's needed, traps have too little actual counterplay otherways.

But if Teemo or Shaco put a trap during the sweep, say to cover their escape or just do some damage, it shouldn't affect it at all, placing an in combat trap is totally fair gameplay.

Shac NorrisApr 21, 20161 votes

If you place a box AFTER the trinket was activated, then it won't disable it. But it'll disable the whole reason you were there in the first place.

If i can't even put traps and have them working, why would i even stay in teamfights, i'd be useless anyway if i dont create chaos and confusion in there.

Zero Skill TankApr 21, 20161 votes

If you place a box AFTER the trinket was activated, then it won't disable it. But it'll disable the whole reason you were there in the first place.

Hm, it's supposed to work like that with shrooms too than it's pretty bugged I guess, I can proc a shroom in red zone, but only if it booms right the moment when it arms, otherway it is disabled.