@Riot Bring back old EXP mastery for supports please ?

Yi Bencheikh··40 votes·1,399 views

Hi guys , so lately i've bought thresh and i really like him he is nice champ , i love the way you hook someone with Q then you use q again and E him back meanwhile you use your lantern for your jungler which makes a perfect combo. But something is really annoying , participating in 80% of the team's kills , all the time walking besides the carries , wards , using targon's everytime , and still at the end , i end up 2 lvls behind my adc who's 15/1 because of me...
since you removed the old exp mastery , supports are a joke now ...no but i am serious i played as Kha few days ago ennemy had a soraka she was basically paper , lvl 15 meanwhile everyone else is 17-18 besides our support too who participated in 90% of the kill and still he is lvl 16 too This is why i think no one's plays support this days .

28 Comments

MisterLayzee8 votes

It needs to go into Sightstone. It can't go into masteries because that would gimp a support's ability to choose which mastery route to take. It also can't go into the support gold income items because they more likely to get abused by other lanes.

Partholonian6 votes

If it depends on being near a higher level ally, then solo laners can't rely on having it ever proc at all. They spend lots of time alone and are probably the highest level on their team.

I agree about masteries though -- lowish tier cunning would probably be the least damaging because there are few Ferocity/Resolve support builds, but any mastery placement would be a potential problem.

I think it should just be baseline adjustments to the exp system that give lower level characters more exp in any situation where shared exp is being gained, to make it harder for large exp gaps to open up and easier to catch up from things like group pushes, and maybe make some sources of exp global to the whole team (regardless of whether they are currently dead).

MisterLayzee1 votes

I think it should just be baseline adjustments to the exp system that give lower level characters more exp in any situation where shared exp is being gained, to make it harder for large exp gaps to open up and easier to catch up from things like group pushes, and maybe make some sources of exp global to the whole team (regardless of whether they are currently dead).

If they wanted to do this they would of done it a long time ago.

If it depends on being near a higher level ally, then solo laners can't rely on having it ever proc at all. They spend lots of time alone and are probably the highest level on their team.

Fair enough but 1 very important reason why I would prefer it on sightstone. Supports ALWAYS need to get sightstone, they don't technically need to keep the gold income items.

Weasel Kensei2 votes

Actualy what needs to happen the most I think is that all the sight stone variants need to regenerate charges.

This will save supports from having to back for more wards as much. It spare them the loss of XP when theyre out warding, but for all those occasions where you say "Ok, the enemy ADC is dead, and the river is warded, I better back to get more wards" will be mitigated.

MisterLayzee1 votes

Lack of wards is NOT the issue. The problem is the fact that supports aren't allowed (and often times unable) to get any kind of farm by themselves mid to late game. Even if you stuck with someone nearly the whole game your still gonna lag behind because you have to ward key spots while the carry you're with takes out a minion wave or two without you.

Junsui Aoi3 votes

if its a mastery, I'd say put it in the same line as biscuits.

I hate my ADC4 votes

Those XP masteries didn't do jack shit to be honest. You'd still be 2 or 3 levels behind. What we need is a system that give more XP to lower level characters and less XP to higher level character to even out the levels for each champions in the game. It doesn't need to be extreme. Just enough to say that if you are 2 levels behind, your XP gain will prevent you from going 3 levels behind so long as you are still somewhat active in the game.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Why? No one used it back then anyway.

Verdade1 votes

As a support main, i don't think its necessary. If they would add such thing, it should be keystone mastery so you can't pick both this and windspeaker/thunderlords/damage reduction.

I can work around it very well and it doesn't bother me, despite maining supports that rely on levels.

I hate my ADC2 votes

You are kidding right? Support is already the most starved role and you want us to lose our keystone in exchange for leveling up at a decent rate? We shouldn't have to deal with being 2-3 levels behind in the role that rely the most on levels to be effective. Other roles get stats from items, supports get items that benefit other roles over themselves so each level matters for a Support, especially a tank support whom literally can't do shit if they are even slightly behind.

Verdade

Supports became a thing because certain champions could function with very little gold AND level. Janna could fulfill her role regardless if she had level 9 and 3k gold or 18 and 15k gold. Same goes with Nunu, Blitz, Alistar and Morgana.

Tank supports emerged much later, starting with Leona and continued with Thresh, Braum and Kench. First two were meant as very powerful engage champions with unheard amounts of CC but they were kinda balanced because they had one huge flaw - lack of sustain.

Rito was "smart" and added support items that provide relatively good sustain for free, gave more gold to supports... and finally huge xp masteries. They made terrible mistake because tank supoorts scaled far better with gold and xp than classic supports. Because of this nunu, once very powerful support, sits at 45% and less win rate, Thresh is literally in every game, Blitz is a trollpick, sona is weaker than siege minion and Soraka is balance nightmare. Only Janna survived, but she got heavily gutted because she countered Rito's chosen -tank supports.

Tl:dr: they created tank supports who were stronger than usual but they also had huge weakness. Then they added items that negated this weakness, so they outright outclassed almost every other support type.

Weasel Kensei2 votes

Part of your post is very good, the other parts have me wondering if the drugs have permanent side effects.

Blitz is a trollpick with a 51.8% win rate, higher than Leona and Braum.

Sona is weaker than a siege minion with her 52.4% win rate... only 0.3% behind Janna's 52.7% win rate.

Again, some of your post is correct, others... are just opinions; bad ones too.

Verdade1 votes

Sona's most popular build: item 2049 item 3092 item 3158 item 3100 item 3285 item 3504 Sona's highest winrate build: item 3092 item 3100 item 3020 item 3285 item 2049 item 3512

Like, seriously? This is supposed to be AURA SUPPORT?! Both her gameplay and build are more of a burst mage than buff/aura support. She completely lost her identity, even Braum is more "Aura support" than she is, just because he builds Locket and Frozen Heart. By "weaker than siege minion" i meant squishier, as her EHP at level 1 is lower than that of siege minon.

If i wanted to play low income burst mage i'd just pick Vel'koz/Zyra/Annie/Brand over Sona every time. They are much more efficient in terms of damage and they have similar amounts of CC. Their win-rate is so low because they are gated by their (and ADCs) health. If you removed healing from tanky champions OR added sustain to mage supports you would see huge win-rate increase for them.

Okay, you got a point with Blitz, but his stats (both play rate and win rate) don't match my experience. Im high plat/low dia support main, and im not seeing Blitz at all. It seems to me Blitz is played only when Thresh is picked/banned, as he has similar engage kit (hook into knockup) but Thresh is far more versatile and powerful (Lantern, Box, knockup being AOE) while Blitz just packs more punch. And as i don't pick/ban Thresh there's very little chance to face Blitz.

Also, do NOT take statistics webs like champion.gg, lolking etc. literally

good4nothin1 votes

{quoted}

sona is weaker than siege minion

No, she isn't. Build some AP on her and she can heal like Soraka while hitting like a fucking ADC (though less often). Then build some tank on her and she'll be the most annoying champ in your game.

Verdade2 votes

Exactly. She was always aura support with mediocre burst and powerful AOE stun. Now she's more of a burst mage than aura suport. Auras used to last indefinitely while being stronger and having triple range.

Blue aura used to give 20 AD/AP at 1000 range, now its just generic AA buff with 350 range. Her green aura used to give 20 armor/mr at 1000 range, now its just pitiful shield with 350 range. Its healing was 175+0.35, now it's just 110+0.2.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

why don't they add that in the support item. exp over time when you finish the item so it doesn't get abused.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

The EXP gain rate would take you hours just level up.

It's like the natural talent mastery kind of bad.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

I wouldn't say it's the sole reason to supports leaving; but I'd say it's one of the noticeable class-wide problems.

Weasel Kensei4 votes

I agree, its not "THE" reason people arnt playing supports so much. It is a rock in the shoe of the diseased, homeless, one-legged man that is support role.

item 2303 item 2302 item 2301 were all a step in the right direction, and anymore slot efficiency we can bring to the role would help. Some support items are in the works with the mage update, and this may give some help to the class. One problem is that Riot kinda doesnt care "consistently" about the class. Zekes Harald was removed for Zekes Harbinger, and Z. Harbinger was a good item... in season 5. Though I actually did like Z. Harald, Harbinger is used less now than Harald was when they removed it for not being used. The problem is twofold, first; matches are so stompy and fast that building an item to help your ADC get kills (in a narrow window) is always a risk over improving your own survivability/utility, second; Many ADCs get more than 50% crit, not all but item 3508 item 3085 item 3031 or item 3031 item 3094 item 3046 are used in the game and they go up to 70% crit. This means the Z. Harbingers moment of power giving 50% crit is slightly wasted, and that doesnt feel good. Z. Harbinger needs a cost reduction to 2,200 gold to get people to buy it at this point. That or it needs to go back closer to its release charge stacking values to charge up faster.

Riot does some stuff for supports here and there, but then stuff like season 6 comes along and festers a plethora of problems for the role and they wont fix them till they can kinda sideline shoehorn support fixes in with another update.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

I'd say it's more a combination than just a singular issue . . .

The eyes were nice for slot efficiency, but with the huge nerfs to trinkets, it feels like season 1 again but without manual wards to buy. Seriously the nerf to the blue & yellow trinkets were nonsensical; blue was barely used, and yellow had the option of getting a free pink ward every few minutes instead of a normal ward every minute. Then blue had it's vision range cut noticeably and yellow normal wards nerfed to only last half the time; vision has been massively cut down in total.

I miss the old gold generating items; philosopher's stone & heart of gold were generalist items, but simple & effective without being overloaded or overpowered. Riot removed then in season 3, then when they finally noticed supports behind on gold they increased gold generation for the lowest member of the team by 1gold every 5 seconds. While a good idea, it's not nearly noticeable in practice. They added other gold items that are largely situational, and depending on the matchup, there will not be a good nor effective option. The coin gives a few gold whenever an enemy lane minion is killed within a short distance; the shield occasionally duplicates the gold given from a lane minion for your closest ally when you kill the lane minion; and the spelltheif generates gold occasionally when you poke an enemy champion. Good ideas in theory but what about the edge cases where none of the 3 modern gold items are beneficial? Say you've got the shield and your carry is someone with incredible wave-clear, you'll be lucky to get once use from it per wave. How about the coin, if your opponents are good zoning champions, you're only going to get a couple minions each wave, which is still a small fraction of an actual minion bounty. Then the spelltheif, if your opponent can out-range you, how do you win a trade against them when you can't even poke them to keep up in gold? These specialized gold generators can be better likewise under specific circumstances, but much worse when unable to profit from them at all. Riot removed the choice between 'consistency' & 'reward/risk' by forcing the later.

-I agree I liked the herald more as it wasn't severely build dependent, since near every carry paired with a support is physical, and thus benefit from the life-steal aura. And as you said it's replacement was obsolete almost immediately; when there were requests to remove critical hits, but riot enforced it everywhere! -There was also the banner of command, changed so that the buffed minion is immune to magic damage; entirely useless when riot changed the meta to be near entirely physical damage. -Then what about the ardent censer? Not only nerfed; but like the zekes was made irrelevant, as there's plenty of cheap attack speed options for ranged physical carries now. -However there's still other supportive options, though they're clearly made for other classes with a price tag to match; frozen heart for tanks, crystal scepter for mages, ext.

Besides struggling to ward, as if being items behind wasn't crippling enough; levels are also the common issue. Since riot's 'great' idea of making games faster via snowballing, supports fall behind faster & harder. Not to mention the often overlooked removed mastery that was meant to combat this issue, generating some exp constantly while around a higher level ally. While minimal, it was better than nothing; even when your team is snowballing across the board, the winning support is still a level or two under the loosing carries. What is often forgotten is stats per level; as the fat assassin trends show, a level advantage is enough to to win a stat-check instead of items.

Those were just the direct nerfs, there's still an indirect nerf most players didn't notice. Assist sprees & shutdowns. Assist sprees unlike regular sprees increased gold gains from consecutive assists without dying; which was removed in preseason 6. Shutdown gold used to just give the bonus gold to who-ever killed them, but like assist sprees was changed without consent for implications; shutdown gold is now divided to among all players of the team evenly. Sounds good in concept, except for the rate & cap; when an enemy kills 3 times or more without dying they give you a bounty based on how many they killed, 100 gold per kill, with a cap of 5 kills. Which was & still is negligible when snowballing is in effect; before an enemy could go 10 kills but only gives a bonus 500 gold when killed, now an enemy can go 10 kills but you only gain 100 gold when taken down. Shutdown gold doesn't remotely return a fighting chance, when a bulldozing enemy is finally circumvented. The removal of assist sprees gutted supports, but the change of shutdown gold made the game even more 1-sided than before.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Long story short; supports have been shafted with gutted & useless items, game mechanics changed to put them behind in gold & levels; yet riot is oblivious why no one wants to play them.

Weasel Kensei2 votes

TL;DR upvote the post above me, its a good one.

Theres lots of good points in there, shame its too long for most people to read it.

Take my word for it people, up vote it.

Im only slightly disagreeing on wards. I felt the removal of stand alone wards was a good idea. The overall ward nerf that came with it however was pretty harsh. Here me out before you guys all downvote and rage on me.

Supports were treated very badly as a ward bag. They were expected to spend however much of their income it took to have wards down. Now vision control is important, but hemorrhaging what little gold supports got on wards hurt the role a lot. I know some matches my wards were destroyed within 30 seconds of them going down very often by a dominating opponent. I was expected to replace them as often as they were taken down to maintain vision.

That kind of role reliance on an expendable item eating their income is toxic. It was a "Oh ur the losing support with little income? OK LOSE HARDER by burning money on wards while we burn your wards!" Many ADCs wouldnt even ward at all with the "its the supports job to ward" mentality, and now they have to. Brought it on themselves really. We had to have something done to change the bag of wards mentality, some people miss the vision control the had, but this was also crippling the junglers too.

In one move they made PART of being a support better, and buffed the jungle role by leaving gaps in vision. This of course was all OK till the mega 60% win rate junglers started roaming the Rift with their TOO influential pressure on the lanes.

I fully disagree on the exp mastery. Like "bag of wards" was bad for supports making them spend money constantly on consumables, a mastery to make them struggle less to keep up is just a band-aid for a problem. This could easily be added to the sight stones to help the role. Any other role is basically solo and/or higher level than he support so it wont buff them. It will however improve the level situation with supports.

XP bonus on sight stone is the best way not to pigeonhole supports into undesirable masteries. Say a passive that causes a 10% bonus to XP when near a higher level allied player. This in conjunction with regenerating wards on the sight stone variants would be a decent buff to the support role.

We see bonus XP on jungler items now to stop people from abusing strats that hurt the jg, and reward the jg for focusing on their role. Junglers have XP bonuses on their items to help define their role, do the same for supports. This will save them from having to waste points on band-aid/undesirable masteries and help them perform better than they are now with a precedent set by the jungle items we have now.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

I appreciate the support; though I didn't mean to come across like I wanted some of these changes. I just described them as I'd seen them, biased since I played mostly top lane & support. So I'll try to clarify much more concisely on a couple of things.

Personally I didn't care about the removal of basic wards since I relied more on the trinket & occasionally sightstone. What aggravated me was the removal of pink wards from the yellow trinket; it was handy to have normal wards from the eye item and the occasional pink as backup in case I ran out. While I understand limiting pinks to one per player, 3 normal wards per player isn't nearly enough. And I've seen plenty of the harassment you speak of too, dishearteningly about every day.

Again I wasn't for the removal of exp generation; the removal of the mastery is what has pretty much killed the role for me, since riot wants games to snowball like an avalanche without any compensation. I agree entirely the sightstone should be buffed, both blue & red; their basic health is weak compared to other durability items, and I don't use more than 1 other activatable item to get any use from the cdr. Why don't I pick up nothing but active items? Because I'm not fond of turning my computer into a piano. I'd suggest placing wards give exp; since there's a cap people can't spam it, and it'd help supports keep up. Alternatively breaking wards should also give exp, since the support or jungler is often the only ones doing that.

Weasel Kensei2 votes

I miss the pink warding trinket as well. There were times when I had to forego a sweeper on my support to have a pink on hand for stealth lane ADCs like Twitch, or Vayne, or Evelyn, Rengar as a junglers. Those matches I sometimes didnt even get a sight stone early.

The under-level issue for supports may be addressed by Riot at some point, and even if they read our discussion I doubt they think its the way to go. The buffing of sight stone to give a version of the old exp mastery that is. They have their reworks planned out till next year it seems; so supports getting any kind of in depth problems/issues/class health adjustments will have to be ignored or tacked on to another update if we get any.

good4nothin2 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3lZulA88,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-04-13T17:53:31.090+0000)

Since riot's 'great' idea of making games faster via snowballing

This is the dumbest thing they've ever claimed to want to do.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Agreed, I'd rather play a match of chess instead of call of duty.

Dengeden1 votes

You know what? Let's do it, bring back the mastery, it's worthless anyway. Then you can complain about how it's not good enough, then jungler will start using it, then it'll get nerfed, I'll be sing-songing "I told you so" for the entire ride.

lolipopevelynn1 votes

nah they just need to increase the exp you get from assists in general i think.

Sukishoo1 votes

If you're falling that far behind your ADC then you are doing it all wrong.

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