Maokai is a Juggernaut, not a tank: Change my mind.

dontspinbutwin·Mar 14, 2019·2 votes·1,792 views

He has high base damage, doesn't need to build damage, easily kited, has insane sustain, and is an excellent duelist. Throw in aftershock or grasp, and he can't die if played properly.

Is this not what a juggernaut is?

EDIT: I could give a damn about the likes right now, but the smart argumentation and debate in the comments is really great. I wish more posts could be like this, thank you for being smart with comments, as opposed to outright pitchforks :)

51 Comments

ModKnightsKemplarMar 14, 201914 votes

Is this not what a juggernaut is?

Nope.

Juggernauts are supposed to be killable but have crazy high damage if they can get and stay in range. Mao also isn't easily kited compared to other juggs... he has a point and click dash with a root built in. In fact, every single skill on Maokai has cc. That's not a juggernaut kit.

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

SIon and poppy are considered juggernauts, yet have decent damage, with even better sustain with their shields and resistances. Sion and poppy both have dashes (though sion's dash is his ult), and skarner has a decent mobility spell that lasts a while.

Morde is also considered a juggernaut, yet his damage isn't at a massive cap, but rather at a constant dps.

Damage doesn't define the juggernaut, but how long the juggernaut can fight with sustain and resistances, in exchange for large mobility.

EedatMar 14, 20196 votes

SIon and poppy are considered juggernauts

Wrong.

Sion is a Vanguard and Poppy is a Warden. Both of which are Tank subclasses.

Morde fits perfectly in to "Juggernauts are supposed to be killable but have crazy high damage if they can get and stay in range."

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

Well I'll take that L then, but I will say this:

Sion's playstyle is incredibly similar to that of a Juggernaut. He want's to be in the middle of the enemy, do damage and hold them down, while acting like a meatshield. Only difference is, most of his damage occurs after he dies. Vanguard as he might be, I still would consider him a juggernaut IMO.

On a unrelated side note, he's technically the undead juggernaut. I know that means nothing in gameplay, but just throwing it out there.

EedatMar 14, 20192 votes

I agree that Sion floats closer to the border of Fighter than a lot of other tanks, but he simply does not have nearly the same damage as a Juggy that is sticking to a target

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/garen

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/Maokai/

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/Sion/

Look at the charts. Maokai actually outdamages a few juggernauts listed. Yes, I know that other juggernauts like dari and garen have executes, but the damage similarity should be noted. Throw in some classic tank items to beef up damage, like iceborn or sunfire, and maokai's damage is quite extrodinary

EedatMar 14, 20191 votes

That chart does not show how the damage is done. In a toe to toe fight, Maokai doesnt have even close to as much damage.

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

...in a toe to toe fight, juggernauts win nearly all fights. What makes them lose fights is that juggernauts can't usually fight toe to toe, but rather have to deal with being danced around.

RalanrMar 14, 20194 votes

Juggernauts don’t lock people down.

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

Darius has a pull followed by a slow, and has an auto attack that slows.

Skarner's ult literally holds you down as he drags you towards his team.

RalanrMar 14, 20195 votes

Darius’s pull is not a lock down, his combo is generally more selfish.

Skarner is not a juggernaut but a diver, and even so that’s the only hard CC in his kit. Tanks generally have two to three hard CC abilities.

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20192 votes

...Skarner's E is a slow, which can then be a stun. That's 3 forms of cc, 2 forms of hard lockdown.

Furthermore, as what skarner's role is is iffy, as he was in the juggernaut rework patch, but is played like a diver.... similarly to how maokai is classified as a tank yet plays like a juggernaut...?

RalanrMar 14, 20192 votes

I’ll admit I don’t remember Skarner’s kit.

Because he doesn’t play like a juggernaut. He’s more about engaging and peeling.

Tahminatrix Mar 14, 20191 votes

Skarner is kind of iffy, 2 seasons ago he was able to scale out of total ult reliance and actually function more as an independent champion who could go toe to toe with a lot of the beefy champs like darius and even splitpush if he had to for some reason.

But that was before riot gutted his trinity + steraks combo which he was dependent on and didn't compensate him. His abilities scaled with total attack damage so all he did was lose out on damage when steraks was changed from base to bonus ad.

But yes, for the most part he is a diver who`s only goal in life is to drag the enemy adc and hope his team knows how followup.

SukishooMar 14, 201910 votes

False. Sion is considered a Vanguard, and Poppy is a Warden. https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses

Just because his title is The Undead juggernaut, doesn't make him one.

General MattyMar 14, 20191 votes

The sass on this man

RalanrMar 14, 20192 votes

No. No they are not. Sion and Poppy are tanks.

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses

This is not hard to look up.

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

How a champion plays and how they're listed can be different. For example, skarner. Skarner was listed as a juggernaut, but played a bit like a diver, so now his roll is iffy, but may lean towards a diver. Similarly, Maokai might be listed as a tank, but his base damage can be compared and is quite notable compared to other juggernauts.

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/garen

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/Maokai/

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/Darius/

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/Sion/

I would also throw in illaoi's, but her damage doesn't show for her passive and Q sadly

I know these champions all differ, with two of them having executes, but their damage is notably similar, and since both do well in the middle of the enemy team, I would personally classify maokai as a juggernaut

RalanrMar 14, 20193 votes

Maokai has too much CC and utility to classify as a juggernaut. Just because Maokai has high base damage doesn’t mean he’s a damage character. Juggernauts also lack teamfight engage potential, which Maokai has.

And please stop calling Sion a juggernaut. His overall DPS is low comparatively and he’s more focused on engaging and locking down targets than doing damage. I say this as someone with 500K mastery on him.

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

Darius has decent engage with his E. Garen and skarner can force an engage with sheer movement speed. A single E from illaoi can force a fight to occur.

Skarner also has 3 cc tools, with 2 hard cc in his kit. Not sure if utility would exclude what defines a juggernaut here.

RalanrMar 14, 20192 votes

That short ranged hook is not an engage. And movement speed boosts can be canceled by a simple slow. That’s like saying Mundo is a Vanguard.

Those are not team engages. Those are selfish boost to kits.

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

Then what about Skarner's ult? Skarner can't auto during his ult status, so it isn't particularly useful in a duel. Skarner's ult is used for the team, as Maokai's cc is used for the team.

RalanrMar 14, 20192 votes

That’s generally why Skarner’s classification has been so wonky. I’m not a fan of calling him a diver, but I’m just assuming if he gets reworked again they’ll push him to be more like a diver.

MandarillMar 14, 20198 votes

Juggernauts usually have respectable damage. Maokai hits like a wet noodle.

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

skarner and sion are considered juggernauts, yet both slap like wet noodles. Furthermore, maokai's base damage is quite high, and is actually a threat. Granted, there really isn't much of a way to kill on maokai as opposed to morde, darius, illaoi, skarner, garen, but his damage is up there.

SuicidePlankMar 14, 20193 votes

Sions Damage is low is what you are saying?

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/Maokai/

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/Darius/

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/Sion/

Compare their damage with their skills. Sion's damage is highest, but only if he fully charges his Q, which usually only occurs as follow up to hard cc ( or from bush). Furthermore, we can see here that maokai actually outdamages Darius' skills. Granted, I get most of darius' damage comes from his passive, but Maokais damage should also be noted.

BeatzBoyFTWMar 14, 20195 votes

Something tells me that you honestly don't play any of the champions that you called either strong or weak in damage, except Darius according to your match history.

All Maokai does is root, AA, Q and that's about it. E is a pretty optional case to use in terms of bush or non-bush damage.

Darius on the other hand can simply follow up with multiple AA-bleed stacks & Q-kiting for both sustain & damage. Additionally, Darius even gains bonus AD from 5 stacks & has the chance to deal True Damage with his ult. All Maokai got was an AoE ult root that honestly just tickles people.

Sion on the other hand has multiple follow up damage thanks to his E-Q combo. Be reminded that his E shreds some of the opponents' Armor, which makes his Q deal even more damage & his W dealing %HP target's damage. He may not be a Juggernaut, but has reasonable damage output thanks to how his kit works.

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

Believe me, I have played all these champs. True, there probably aren't any records of morde, skarner, or garen on this acc, but they should be on my other accounts, which hasn't been touched in a while.

I get where these champion's get their damage, and I recognize the patterns. However, maokai does have some max HP damage mixed into his kit, with high base damage with other skills. Yes, maokai's combo is simple, but that's the case for most juggernauts. Garen's combo is Q-E-W or W-Q-E, yet he's a notable juggernaut. Simplicity in combo shouldn't be what excludes a juggernaut. A juggernaut should be defined by how they play, and how well they perform that playstyle.

BeatzBoyFTWMar 14, 20191 votes

Garen's combo is Q-E-W or W-Q-E, yet he's a notable juggernaut.

Because his E deals bonus damage if he's hitting a single target, plus shreds Armor if he ticks him 4 times, of which where his Q comes in. His Q allows him to chase his opponents down assuming the opponent doesn't consists of many blinks & dashes, and his W allows him to resist most counter-damage taken to him while dealing some damage for himself. His ult is also literally an execute, of which I wonder why you left this out.

Maokai has none of these. His Q & W is literally flat magic damage with a mix of CC into it & E dealing some %Hp damage, but nothing as impressive as Sion's W. Ult also deals simple flat magic damage with a root that can be close to useless in a close f2f fight.

Maokai's main role in the game is literally to disrupt the enemy team with his combined CC & be somewhat sustainable with his passive, but damage-wise not as good as all the champions everyone listed in this thread.

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

His role is to disrupt the teamfight, yes. That's what juggernauts do. Furthermore, Garen was considered a juggernaut before the armor tick, so that armor reduction can't be considered what makes him a juggernaut.

I left out Garen's ult because it's kinda engraved into everyone on what garen does. The point I wanted to make wasn't on how juggernauts kill their opponents, but rather how they fight.

BeatzBoyFTWMar 14, 20191 votes

He has high base damage, doesn't need to build damage, easily kited, has insane sustain, and is an excellent duelist.

I was comparing your argument to this. Maokai being an "excellent duelist" sounds horribly wrong when the 3 champions I stated does it better. Maokai has good team disruption, Garen & Darius are excellent in executing at least 1 opponents in the enemy team while attempting their best to sustain in teamfights, and Sion does almost a mix of both of them, in terms of damage output, team disruption & durability.

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

There's always gonna be some champ that does it better, even in the juggernaut pool. Illaoi has the biggest zone, Darius holds the most damage via movement, Garen has a silence (honestly mostly what's goin for him ._.), Skarner has lockdown, morde has dragon, etc. Just because Maokai isn't up to par with other juggernaut's damage shouldn't exclude him from this group.

InfernapeMar 14, 20196 votes

Maokai does nowhere near the same amount of damage as actual juggernauts like Darius or Garen.

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

Skarner and mordekaiser are both considered juggernauts, yet their damage output is quite mediocre at best. Damage doesn't define a juggernaut, it's their sustainability and tankiness, with mobility being a large sacrifice.

Maokai does incredible damage, and his damage is up there, despite not seeming like it.

Iota ThetaMar 14, 20196 votes

{quoted}

Skarner and mordekaiser are both considered juggernauts, yet their damage output is quite mediocre at best. Damage doesn't define a juggernaut, it's their sustainability and tankiness, with mobility being a large sacrifice.

Maokai does incredible damage, and his damage is up there, despite not seeming like it.

It’s cause Maokai’s damage is all AoE.

Skarner has been flip-flopped between Juggernaut and Diver. I think Riot finally decided in Diver, just haven’t changed his kit again.

Mordekaiser actually deals a lot of damage.

And yes, damage does define a Juggernaut...it’s literally one of their core features, high damage output.

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

Damage is a key in what a juggernaut is, but I don't think that theres a certain threshhold for that damage. Like Sion, his damage is meh, and he's usually picked for cc and sustain, yet is categorized as a juggernaut.

I'm not doubting morde's damage either: I've seen it, and its scary when he's ahead. However, his burst isn't to the likes of Darius, so to speak. Both play similarly, and both have the same weaknesses.

Iota ThetaMar 14, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Damage is a key in what a juggernaut is, but I don't think that theres a certain threshhold for that damage. Like Sion, his damage is meh, and he's usually picked for cc and sustain, yet is categorized as a juggernaut.

I'm not doubting morde's damage either: I've seen it, and its scary when he's ahead. However, his burst isn't to the likes of Darius, so to speak. Both play similarly, and both have the same weaknesses.

Sion has never been considered a Juggernaut. Besides his title..where do you get that? Picked for survival and CC is pretty much tank. You pick a Juggernaut for tanky carry-level damage.

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

So you're telling me that lack of mobility and high damage/sustainability is what defines a juggernaut? Then if I go Bruiser Ornn who builds half damage and half tank, would that be considered a juggernaut? Genuine question for you to answer.

Iota ThetaMar 14, 20192 votes

{quoted}

So you're telling me that lack of mobility and high damage/sustainability is what defines a juggernaut? Then if I go Bruiser Ornn who builds half damage and half tank, would that be considered a juggernaut? Genuine question for you to answer.

I would say no, as even then he still carries too much CC, and strong CC at that, to be considered such. Items builds don’t determine what a champion is at their core. You can build Malphite as a pure tank or full AP like a mage, but the core of his kit is still tank. Much like Ornn, Sion, and Maokai.

Barso55Mar 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Skarner and mordekaiser are both considered juggernauts, yet their damage output is quite mediocre at best. Damage doesn't define a juggernaut, it's their sustainability and tankiness, with mobility being a large sacrifice.

Maokai does incredible damage, and his damage is up there, despite not seeming like it.

mordekaiser triple q is one of the strongest single target abilities in the game in terms of damages - both base and hybrid scaling. His e has a low enough cooldown that its damage output is higher than 'mediocre' as well. Last, the ult with liandries hurts a lot.

Iota ThetaMar 14, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Is this not what a juggernaut is?

No, it’s not what a Juggernaut is.

He has high base damage,

Doesn’t equate to Juggernaut. Lots of tanks have pretty good bases so that they can farm in lane or jungle. His Q is really his main damage. E is unreliable, W is more for the untargetable status and the root, ult has low damage.

doesn't need to build damage,

Here your argument really starts fallin apart. Juggernauts, for the most part, need to build some damage items: Cleaver, Trinity, Titanic Hydra, Sterak’s, etc. The goal build, I believe, was for then to build a mix of tank items and “Juggernaut” items, like Sterak’s, Cleaver, and Titanic Hydra.

easily kited,

Have you tried kiting a Maokai? He has a lot of CC, in fact, all 4 skills have CC, with low enough CDs to stick.

has insane sustain,

Does not necessarily equate to being a juggernaut. Nunu has sustain as well, and he’s a tank. It is more often a juggernaut feature (not really when only a few have in-combat sustain), but That doesn’t mean Maokai is a juggernaut. Urgot has a shield, is he a tank?

and is an excellent duelist.

Open to debate. He loses a lot of 1v1s as the matches go on unless he built to negate his opponent. He’s much stronger in teamfights. It also begs the question of if you are facing him as an actual duelist. Remember, spell hits actually make his heal cooldown faster.

Throw in aftershock or grasp, and he can't die if played properly.

Aftershock is considered overtuned at the moment with mages taking it. Maokai is, or at least was pre-Conqueror, tough to kill anyway with just the tank items he built, especially his passive combined with item 3065 .

What defines a Juggernaut? Little to no mobility, high damage, high durabilty, low CC. What defines a tank? High durability, high CC and/or utility (most debuffs), lower damage output compred to most other classes.

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

I said maokai has lots of sustain, because if you put him in the juggernaut position, then his passive cd gets lowered dramatically. Nunu has good healing yes, but this healing is not easily accessable/on a low cd, so that wouldn't be nunu's case.

I can see your point of the damage item argument, but that begs the question of what a damage item is. Would Sunfire be considered a damage item with it's passive, or a tank item with it's armor? How about iceborn gauntlet? What if I build ROA or Rylais on maokai? It works, and amps his damage, so would that not follow the guidelines for your definition of juggernaut?

For the kiting argument, I do agree that it can be difficult to kite him with his point click root/gapcloser....but Darius has a hook that has to be played around, Garen has his movement speed that is essentially unavoidable without proper CC. You might argue the idea of using CC to kite garen, as opposed to Darius, but Maokai is easily cced as well, and can be kited in that manner.

Iota ThetaMar 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I said maokai has lots of sustain, because if you put him in the juggernaut position, then his passive cd gets lowered dramatically. Nunu has good healing yes, but this healing is not easily accessable/on a low cd, so that wouldn't be nunu's case.

Maokai does have a lot of sustain, I won’t deny that. But that doesn’t make him a Juggernaut. Idk what you mean by “juggernaut position”, but if Maokai goes into the fight, it’s to disrupt with his CC and prevent the enemy from focusing on the team. His heal is how he survives that. That’s how he continues to tank the fight.

Nunu’s healing isn’t easily accessible? It’s his Q, and has an 8 second CD max rank, reduced further if he has 30-40% CDR. It’s pretty accessible in fights.

I can see your point of the damage item argument, but that begs the question of what a damage item is. Would Sunfire be considered a damage item with it's passive, or a tank item with it's armor? How about iceborn gauntlet? What if I build ROA or Rylais on maokai? It works, and amps his damage, so would that not follow the guidelines for your definition of juggernaut?

Sunfire: not damage, it’s a tank item. IBG: tank item. RoA and Rylai’s: offensive, mage/AP fighter item.

Should Maokai build RoA (Rylai’s passive would be useless on him), he’ll be more like a fighter, but his kit is still a tank’s kit. The kit is often their core identity, and then it can alter slightly with what they build. Maokai’s kit has CC on every ability, designed to go into a fight, knock opponents around, and survive through items and his passive. That’s a tank.

For the kiting argument, I do agree that it can be difficult to kite him with his point click root/gapcloser....but Darius has a hook that has to be played around, Garen has his movement speed that is essentially unavoidable without proper CC. You might argue the idea of using CC to kite garen, as opposed to Darius, but Maokai is easily cced as well, and can be kited in that manner.

Darius’s root has a longer CD and is fairly short ranged for a hook. Garen’s Q is a speed up, but he can be slowed or hard CC’d as soon as he uses it. You say it’s unavoidable, but he still has to actually run at you before it hits that point. A slow can allow you to walk away from him.

Maokai’s W, however, makes him untargetable and is point and click. His ult is wide and can be positioned to get a quick root to buy time. His E has a slow if you can hit it, and once he W’s, he is likely to use Q and stop his target a bit longer until he can W again. Not as easy to kite.

Done25Mar 14, 20192 votes

Maoka's damage is spread out in the form of AoE. He's not nearly as strong as the likes of Darius or Garen in a 1v1 fight to the death.

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

Some jugernauts aren't meant to 1v1. Sion is considered a juggernaut, yet his damage is mediocre at best. His AOE ult and Q is what makes him seen as a tank, however, despite his juggernaut role.

Poppy doesn't do well in "fight to the death" scenario, but her damage is decent. She also has a decent amount of AOE.

Morde and skarner are meant to be dueling juggernauts, yet their damage is mediocre at best.

Darius' damage is quite good in a skirmish, but what makes him deadly is his passive and his Q procing the 5 stacks on everyone, while sustaining, with the threat of true damage execution resets. Furthermore, if a maokai or Darius can get to the backline, either can do decent damage in hopes of a kill, provided both build accordingly to that of a tanky role.

The SkáldMar 14, 20192 votes

https://giphy.com/gifs/home-video-weird-science-XTGBxEQ5298DS

RagnaveilMar 14, 20191 votes

The term juggernaut only really applies to champs like Darius, Garen, and Aatrox (pre-nerf). Morde and Skarner happen to be victims of a tunnel visioning with that particular project and got hit with the "juggernaut" label.

dontspinbutwinMar 14, 20191 votes

How does prenerf aatrox make him a juggernaut? His sustain was left untouched, but rather his mobility got gutted. Lack of mobility should be a key definer of a juggernaut, so if anything, the nerf helped define him more as a juggernaut.

But I digress. Labels should be given to champions after their playstyle accordingly. If Darius suddenly had a free dash, then he really wouldn't be a juggernaut, but a diver. Maokai plays for damage, cc, and being a meatshield, so why shouldn't he be a juggernaut?