Before the Reworks: "Garen is so easy to counter/kite" "Has so little CC and mobility" "So easy to counter"
After the reworks, which they made Garen have less CC, less mobility, more kitable, less tanky, and overall more counterplay to an already easy to counter champion:
"Garen has no counter!" "He goes so fast!" "His Silence is so long!"
I can't be the only one seeing the hypocrisy, can I?
Ser Garland28 votesPeople complain about anything when you give a champion damage.
HayRoss2 votesIt's truly outrageous
Ironclad Dragon7 votes
I sense an outrage in the force.
HayRoss9 votesHow have I disappointed you, your fabulousness?
IcyPepper2 votesIt's like people forget that Darius and Garen don't have 
or 
levels of cc.
Bruisers (or in this case, juggernauts) don't have as much cc as true tanks, so they get damage. Yes, they are tanky as fuck and do damage, but that's not a balance issue (unless they're overtuned, I mean the concept of being tanky with damage). People tend to forget the advantages of aa range, and don't properly utilize their crowd control and positioning. Don't want Darius to touch your adc? Don't let him get past the frontline and get Noxian Might.
Always have a way to kite the enemy, either through cc or (sigh) mobility. If your team has a weakness, and the enemy team exploits this, it's not a balancing issue. It'd be like picking five squishies with no cc against Katarina and calling her OP afterwards.
LegacyDAP15 votesthe only thing I think is that you shouldn't be punished so hard for doing so good as going against him.
the max I've seen is 39% true damage.
HayRoss2 votes%39 percent? What, did you let him wail on you when he had no attack items against a 6 thornmail Taric?
Gregor Gysi1 votes%39 percent? What, did you let him wail on you when he had no attack items against a 6 thornmail Taric?
Garen's E deals 10% Max HP True Damage against the villain and his ult 40% of targets missing health + 525 true damage. So even if we ignore the Q damage and the base E damage you would still be able to execute pretty much every tank there is. Even tanks would die to E + Ult once they are at 50%. No matter what Garens build is (assuming they are villain).
E: but I agree, people are always complaining about the wrong parts. OP champions are not OP because of some parts of their kit but rather because they are simply overtuned in some areas. So his weakened Q is definetely not at fault for him being OP but rather his amount of damage and stronger laningphase due to W. Not sure whether he is still OP tho, seeing how they weakened his idgaf laning phase.
HayRoss2 votesI do agree that Villainy does do a bit much damage, but I don't think they should nerf the damage, they should make Villains far less common. Garen doesn't hate that guy who stole his parking spot; Sure, He's an asshole, but Garen hates Villains!
Sire Hippington4 votesstronger laneing? You surely have littl experience with old garren... He lost alot early damage on his E, he needs atleast level 7 to break even vs isolated, level 10 to break even total... and the w won't kick in any sooner, so his pre 7 lane is alot worse than it was.
Gregor Gysi2 votes[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3eizE4Q9,comment-id=0002000000000001,timestamp=2015-09-17T13:58:25.280+0000)
stronger laneing? You surely have littl experience with old garren... He lost alot early damage on his E, he needs atleast level 7 to break even vs isolated, level 10 to break even total... and the w won't kick in any sooner, so his pre 7 lane is alot worse than it was.
The new W is for sure better than the old one early (it stacks really fast) and when I said idgaf early I meant that even though he could lose it once his enemy is the villain (in 5.17 you got Villain when killing Garen) Garen could simply outtrade and out-allin you. But that got fixed which is why I'm not sure whether he still is OP.
DorkunedAuras1 votesflat 30% increase was huge, and even helped early given that he'd have runes for it. Then for a short time new W is stronger, until the moment he builds defensive items, where old garen explodes back into winning the tankiness war.
Gregor Gysi1 votesflat 30% increase was huge, and even helped early given that he'd have runes for it. Then for a short time new W is stronger, until the moment he builds defensive items, where old garen explodes back into winning the tankiness war.
So new Garen is bteter in the early game but less tanky in the lategame. However, seeing how his damage rose drastically (especially against the Villain) his lategame is better than when he was only a piece of meat. All in all the rework was a huge buff to Garen.
Critmaster Garen15 votesthe only thing I think is that you shouldn't be punished so hard for doing so good as going against him.
the max I've seen is 39% true damage.
true damage mainly applies against villains which are in most cases sqishies. i can take half your carries hitpoints with one ability from a long range mage from relative safety, then blast the fucker to smitherines.
youre saying garen doing something like that in melee, after he somehow managed to reach them is a problem?
disregardable6 votesThat ability is ranged lol.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3eizE4Q9,comment-id=000200010001,timestamp=2015-09-17T15:58:54.994+0000)
That ability is ranged lol.
his ult has melee range. or what are you talking about?
disregardable3 voteshttps://i.gyazo.com/8619272402937361336234219b9546c0.png
That's just a little less range than Urgot's auto-attack and the same range as level 1 Gnar's auto-attack. It makes it much easier for him to turret dive you, because the space is really too small for you to kite its large range.
Gostreiver1 votes[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3eizE4Q9,comment-id=00020001000100000001,timestamp=2015-09-17T17:10:16.149+0000)
https://i.gyazo.com/8619272402937361336234219b9546c0.png
That's just a little less range than Urgot's auto-attack and the same range as level 1 Gnar's auto-attack. It makes it much easier for him to turret dive you, because the space is really too small for you to kite its large range.
Melee is 300 i think? and normal Adc range is 500 Cait is only 550
disregardable3 votesMelee range is 125-200, most at 125. A few melees have abilities that will increase their range to over 200 though (Aatrox, Hecarim, Rengar, Wukong).
Critmaster Garen3 votes[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3eizE4Q9,comment-id=00020001000100000001,timestamp=2015-09-17T17:10:16.149+0000)
https://i.gyazo.com/8619272402937361336234219b9546c0.png
That's just a little less range than Urgot's auto-attack and the same range as level 1 Gnar's auto-attack. It makes it much easier for him to turret dive you, because the space is really too small for you to kite its large range.
so its slightly outside melee range, but still less than any real ranged ability. most adc auto attack ranges are at 550. i think kindred is gonna have the shortest with 500.
doesnt even flash have a range of 450?
either way, a nidalee spear or a lux e can easily deal half health bar of an adc in damage. and those have significantly more range than 400.
even if garens rank 3 ult deals 1000 damage, its not much different from a lux laser hitting for 1000 damage.
disregardable2 votesYeah, exactly. It's almost as much as an ADC's auto-attack, so he can just use Q to gap close the 1 second distance difference and press R.
Critmaster Garen2 votes[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3eizE4Q9,comment-id=0002000100010000000100010000,timestamp=2015-09-17T17:24:12.856+0000)
Yeah, exactly. It's almost as much as an ADC's auto-attack, so he can just use Q to gap close the 1 second distance difference and press R.
he still has to get there. and q + ult usually wont kill an adc even if hes the villain.
disregardable2 votes30% health true damage is quite a lot of damage for only needing to get within 400 range.
UltraSceptile1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3eizE4Q9,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-09-17T04:07:22.993+0000)
true damage mainly applies against villains which are in most cases sqishies. i can take half your carries hitpoints with one ability from a long range mage from relative safety, then blast the fucker to smitherines.
youre saying garen doing something like that in melee, after he somehow managed to reach them is a problem?
He is extremely difficult to peel and builds one bruiser item then full tank.
FUck mages too though.
LankPants1 votesHe is extremely difficult to peel
Can't say I'd agree with that. He's one of the easiest champs in the game to peel, in most cases a well timed slow is enough to keep him off of your carries. He stands no chance of getting past someone like Naut or Alistar either.
Just looking at your match history you play tons of Rengar/Yas/Yi/Wuk ect. Yes he's hard to peel away when you play these characters, they have no peel.
UltraSceptile1 votesCan't say I'd agree with that. He's one of the easiest champs in the game to peel, in most cases a well timed slow is enough to keep him off of your carries. He stands no chance of getting past someone like Naut or Alistar either.
Just looking at your match history you play tons of Rengar/Yas/Yi/Wuk ect. Yes he's hard to peel away when you play these characters, they have no peel.
My match history? I haven't played wukong in ages.
But yeah I have been playing Rengar a lot in normals, after I hit plat I realized I'm not anywhere good enough to get to diamond, especially during the school year so I just wanted to play normals and have fun, which Rengar gives me.
But he is very difficult to peel in my opinion. Yes it is possible to peel him. But the problem is you have to waste so much peeling him that you won't have much to use on the enemy, which isn't supposed to be how juggernauts work. Juggernauts aren't supposed to be tanks, they're meant to be powerful damage dealers who can take a beating, not have 10 lives. But now they're both.
LankPants2 votesBut the problem is you have to waste so much peeling him that you won't have much to use on the enemy,
As someone who mains jungle tanks I heavily disagree with this statement. You easily have enough CC on most tanks to entirely shut a Garen out, with enough CC left over to hit the enemy team.
The only time Garen's ever gave me trouble is when I'm playing Shyvana. But that's a counter matchup and all Garen has is counter matchups. Ether you counter him and have a giant advantage or he counters you and has a giant advantage.
Juggernauts aren't supposed to be tanks, they're meant to be powerful damage dealers who can take a beating, not have 10 lives. But now they're both.
This sounds about like the problem. I find it mind-boggling that the juggernauts get to have the best base defences and base damages in the game.
DorkunedAuras1 votesThis is definitely an adc main right here, complaining about anything that isn't benefiting them
redniwediS6 votesThe big thing that changed with Garen is his pick rate. People actually have to face him now, and they have no idea how to do it. They have looked down on him for multiple seasons, and now that they have a taste of what he can do they would rather say the latest update made him OP, rather than say they were wrong.
As a Garen main since season 1 I can just say this, give me pre-juggernaut Garen and I'll wreck you as easily as I can with current Garen. Any Garen main can pull this off if you can't figure out how to handle post-juggernaut Garen.
HayRoss2 votesGaren mains, unite!
Towboat4216 votesCan't say i enjoy playing against 
, he is just too fricken scary. Was playing 
last week and its late game but instead of being a threat i was constantly running from the typhoon of justice cause you know is always the villain for deleting that pesky apc.
His ult managed to 1k true damage to me one time and i was just so confused to what i was supposed to do he literally went q + r and i was
erased. While i must admit it was funny he never really needs to stop chasing cause he is just so tanky so he could easily kill me regardless of
my stun.
ForTheNguyen401 votesIt's ironic because does the same thing with his q+r :')
Towboat4213 votesIt's ironic because
Oh im sorry, i wasent aware that was a TANK whom dealt TRUE damage with very little risk.
ForTheNguyen401 votesI didn't say he's a tank who does true damage, just that can one shot with his q+r. No need to get so defensive.
Kouga1 votesMaybe if he got more defensive he wouldn't be so squishy.
: ^ )
agbudar4 votes
both got released with that juggernaut release making him stupid op
Boulderox5 votes
IKR, here lets turn more champions into 
, full tank and do DAMAGE.
Gostreiver1 votesIKR, here lets turn more champions into
No No. Lets not bring the Cane into this.. He has a poor Early AND Mid Game.. All he has is the late game, and thats only if he has farmed up enough and your team hasnt shut him down repeatedly. Garen has no counterplay at the moment " lol he can be kited so ez" Is a fucking joke of an argument. Nasus has many counterplays.. Let him have late game..Let him have it.
Boulderox2 votesNo No. Lets not bring the Cane into this.. He has a poor Early AND Mid Game.. All he has is the late game, and thats only if he has farmed up enough and your team hasnt shut him down repeatedly. Garen has no counterplay at the moment " lol he can be kited so ez" Is a fucking joke of an argument. Nasus has many counterplays.. Let him have late game..Let him have it.
sorry for not clarifying, by nasus i mean that nasus ONLY builds raw tank and 1 damage item, and thanks to his kit, he can go on rampages with how strong he can get if not dealth with. Same as garen is now, he becomes a problem if someone is doing well, can build entirely tank and still do amazing amounts of damage with e and q. And with him building \damage instead, RIP with his passive and armor stacking from farm.
Pikmints3 votesIt's more like let's create a champion with damage like that of a lane bully, give some good base durability on top of that, give them either hard cc or mobility + soft cc, and make it so that none of those fall off throughout the game.
At least Nasus doesn't have hard cc, mobility, innate tankiness, nor lane bully potential. Yes he can do more damage than any juggernaut if he gets farmed up, but all good juggernauts and a number of non-juggernauts can prevent him from farming about half the minions during laning phase.
Sooko3 votesMost people didn't face Garen often. They thought he was just weak and that's it. Most of their complaints would actually fit better for old Garen (asides from kiting, items and the removal of the slow made him really fast). He was always a pain to lane against if you have mana/not enough early damage to finish him off before he regenerates at the turret.
The main reason why he is seeing such a surge in popularity is because his buffs allowed him to become a tanky assassin that deals true damage (before he fell off like a brick and could be easily ignored. You can't really ignore a true dmg execute now) and because his items remove the biggest counterplay that is left asides from falling off, which is kiting.
Boulderox3 votesLet's see, he can has the most broken hp regen late game, and can deal true damage....
Also blame it's a core and gives Him even more stupid cheap tricks he can do to run away
Gostreiver3 votesLet's see, he can has the most broken hp regen late game, and can deal true damage.... Also blame
Common sense is hard for these "garen main's " they would rather defend the champion loyally than realize what Riot has done to him. Giving him more built in tank , allows him to build straight damage if he wanted to. Hes Fisher Price's My first champion, you can build him however you want and push 2 buttons in every fight. Its a joke. Garen is clownshoes , he was before but atleast he had to build either Tanky or Damage. Now he gets both at the same time, in every game.
HayRoss3 votesDon't blame the champion when it's the fault of the item. Garen himself is fine, it's just the items he gets that makes him really powerful. Just like Vayne and her Bork
JustMyBassCannon2 votesIt has less to do with Garen and more to do with the new items, not that they actually made him overpowered though.
Gostreiver1 votesIt has less to do with Garen and more to do with the new items, not that they actually made him overpowered though.
It does have plenty to do with Garen, Ill try to find the video but it is from a Long time Garen main. Just talking about how he doesnt need to build as tanky to be tanky anymore, and still outputs much more damage. You can build whatever you want. Serious Garens will build IE and still tank a whole team. The problem isnt even his damage alone, its the fact that he does alot of damage in being such a tanky presence. The video's thesis is that the "juggernaut" champions require multiple people on the team just to take out, and they take far too much time to take down. They are in and of themself a giant Team crowd control.. They can play completely greedy, make mistakes, and get caught out and be totally fine. That is exactly the type of play that is Toxic to the game, because atleast Higher levels of play and better players and Pros Capitalize on mistakes like that, and outplay them. More so Garen than Darius, and mord/ skarner nerfed already.
JustMyBassCannon2 votesIt does have plenty to do with Garen, Ill try to find the video but it is from a Long time Garen main. Just talking about how he doesnt need to build as tanky to be tanky anymore, and still outputs much more damage.
...and this is new to Garen?
If this is a problem--which, coming from someone who has literally never played as Garen, it has never been a problem for me--then it has been a problem since his creation.
KONO RUBICK DA1 votesGaren is fine now the only change he needs is on PBE
Critmaster Garen3 votesGaren is fine now the only change he needs is on PBE
if youre talking about the change to villainy not applying on kills against garen, thats already live.
HayRoss2 votesAnd while I think Garen is balanced, I can actually agree to that change
