Thornmail went from a situational item to a trap item

Rebonack·Oct 16, 2015·119 votes·6,885 views

It was situational because it was only good under a very specific set of circumstances. Namely, if someone who isn't abounding in True Damage and %armor shred was auto-attacking you a bunch. Unlike the other anti-auto attack items (Heart and Omen) Thorn was totally useless if you weren't getting attacked. Omen has its active slow. Heart has its IAS nerf aura.

And Thorn?

It's got nothin'.

And now it has even less.

So why not give it some other means of being an active threat?

The two solutions that come to mind are giving it OnHit magic damage equal to some percentage of your armor (which would give it some neat synergy with the otherwise lonely Wit's End) or giving it an active that deals magic damage equal to some percentage of your armor and inflicts Grievous Wounds.

Either would allow a Thorn user to still take advantage of their purchase even if the enemy ADC were attacking someone else.

113 Comments

LuggOct 16, 201520 votes

They might as well delete Thornmail at this point. It's worthless.

RoodrakOct 16, 201531 votes

{quoted}

They might as well delete Thornmail at this point. It's worthless.

Not Ok Rammus

LuggOct 16, 201515 votes

Old Thorn was still better on Ram then this one.

LittleBlastOct 16, 20152 votes

Idk ive dealt some absurd damage with the new one, however i did about the same with the old one now that i think about it.

EddardStark84Oct 18, 20151 votes

The math disproves that. That's placebo effect in action.

RoodrakOct 16, 20157 votes

Your not wrong, but deleting the item would remove Rammus's damage and he'd just be a champ whose only contribution is a taunt.

Any level of thornmail enables rammus to kill their carry. If it refelcts damage it's needed for rammus to have an identity besides a in and out 1 disable champ

LuggOct 17, 20155 votes

Don't get me wrong, I WANT thornmail in the game. I just want it to be worthwhile.

Small TiddiesOct 17, 20151 votes

The new one scales much better though, less base dmg of course, but what kind of Rammus only buys 1 armor item? HELLO. Sunfire.

LuggOct 17, 20152 votes

Someone did the math on another thread and you need a very high amount of armor to just break even with the old Thornmail. So theoretically, you can get higher end game, but it's not likely in most games. Plus the new one is more expensive on top of everything.

Yxgl222HaXOct 16, 20151 votes

Thornmail always made no sense to me i mean logically you shoot a gun (multiple ranged adcs) and a bullet/arrow/axe ect that is not physically connected to you in any way possible takes damage so it hurts you physically as if your projectile was physically a part of you. Melle champs i understand but ranged champs taking damage from a thornmail is just silly. They should bring it back to its old refelection and just change it to be against melle champs.

LeeDarkOct 16, 20155 votes

Sure, soon as Cait has to reload her gun every so often, Ashe has to run forward and collect her arrows when she runs out, and Draven has to catch his axes or not being able to autoattack.

Yxgl222HaXOct 16, 20153 votes

obviously they just hide their infinite ammo in their cleavage duh. Get with the times man. (even draven hides his axes in his jock)

LuggOct 16, 20157 votes

Thornmails entire purpose was to help counteract the insane lifesteal ADCs have.

Yxgl222HaXOct 16, 20152 votes

Seems to me that right now champions like Garen, Darius and fiora have way more hp regen/lifesteal than Adc's do. To the point where we are seeign Adc's rushing IE , SHIV, Boots, and sometimes a LW before even bothering with lifesteal.

LuggOct 17, 20152 votes

Against Garen, you have to rush LW as the 2nd or 3rd item. He needs a nerf to either his damage or his tankyness. They are WAY too high right now for him to have both.

Kuroi86Oct 17, 20151 votes

Life steal is hardly insane. And Thornmail still does it's job quite well. Just because it was nerfed doesn't mean it doesn't still do what it did before, negate life steal.

LuggOct 17, 20152 votes

You have obviously never tried to solo a Jinx with BT.

Kuroi86Oct 17, 20151 votes

Unique: Reflects 15% of the physical damage taken (+ 25% bonus armor) from basic attacks and on-hit effects back to its source as magic damage (Calculated before any resistances or reductions are taken into account).

Unless Thornmail has been changed to function differently than stated or said Jinx has considerably more life steal than just that BT, then no, Jinx will not be healing up that damage.

Example. An auto that would deal 1000 damage to a tank. Thornmails armor would reduce the damage to 500 while dealing back 175 magic damage. Say the attacker has a Bloodthirster which means 20% life steal. The healing from that would equal out to 100 life returned. Thornmail essentially negates life steal in lower quantities and unless an ADC is willing to sacrifice damage for life steal, then Thornmail is going to hurt.

LuggOct 17, 20154 votes

Jinx will usually have a LW as well, so that removes 35% of the armor (not even counting any armor pen), that makes the damage 675 returning 155 health. So the net gain is only 20 damage for the tank. In which case Jinx EASILY kills them without dying.

The old Thornmail had a tough time keeping up, this one doesn't have a chance.

LadyRenlyOct 16, 201513 votes

Not requiring additional armor to use its own effect and inflicting grievous wounds would be perfect.

RebonackOct 16, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Not requiring additional armor to use its own effect and inflicting grievous wounds would be perfect.

Riot tried that, apparently, and it felt like it invalidated auto-attackers a little too hard.

Making it an active would allow for a bit more wiggle-room. It would also let you inflict the debuff even on targets that aren't attacking you.

ZT XperimentorOct 16, 20152 votes

Agreed, any lifesteal item out does its damage reflection, it's disappointing it literally has so little impact.

Kuroi86Oct 17, 20152 votes

Uh... no. You'd need somewhere in the neighborhood of 40% life steal in order to out heal Thornmail. Thornmail bases it's damage on 15% of the attackers damage pre mitigation, plus a % of the tanks armor. Life steal is based upon damage dealt post mitigation. Example. An auto that would deal 1000 damage to a tank. Thornmails armor would reduce the damage to 500 while dealing back 175 magic damage. Say the attacker has a Bloodthirster which means 20% life steal. The healing from that would equal out to 100 life returned. Thornmail essentially negates life steal in lower quantities and unless an ADC is willing to sacrifice damage for life steal, then Thornmail is going to hurt.

ZT XperimentorOct 17, 20153 votes

Let's get some more numbers since you're over estimating the power of thornmail.

http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/49ALyYv4-poll-should-kindreds-passive-deal-missing-health-damage?comment=00010000000000000000

{quoted}

Indeed it would take time to build up, and in a half-hour game you'd be maxing out roughly 15 stacks, which is a bonus 19% current health damage. Sure armor helps, but has significantly diminishing returns; (science done with thresh)

20 armor is 16% physical damage reduction 50 armor is 33% physical damage reduction (the average carry/mage default) 100 armor is 50% physical damage reduction 150 armor is 60% physical damage reduction 200 armor is 67% physical damage reduction (most tanks should be reaching this when against mixed damage) 250 armor is 71% physical damage reduction 300 armor is 75% physical damage reduction 350 armor is 78% physical damage reduction 400 armor is 80% physical damage reduction (pointless unless the entire enemy team is physical) 450 armor is 82% physical damage reduction 500 armor is 83% physical damage reduction

As you can see, stacking armor becomes more of a cost than a benefit beyond 250; and sure most tanks tend to have 3000 health to boot. However, there's several anti-tank items that makes this a mute point; (but I'll be ignoring criticals since it's RNG) -Blade of the Ruined King - passive damage bonus of 8% of the target's current health on auto attacks -Black Cleaver - all physical damage shreds armor by a percentage stacking up to 30% -Last Whisper - user ignores 35% of enemy armor -There's also the youmuu's ghostblade and several runes that give flat armor penetration; and 'devastating strikes' mastery that increases penetration by +6%

This is also something overlooked.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/BHjE27Ig-new-thornmail-math-just-to-people-understand-it-is-a-nerf-to-all-champions?sort_type=best&comment=0008

{quoted}

Always assuming basic attack before mitigation. Assuming a basic attack of 100 damage : Old thornmail : 30 damage reflection New thornmail : 15 damage reflection and, in order to bypass the old thornmail damage, you need 60+ bonus armor So, assuming a 100 damage basic attack before mitigation , this is a buff. Assuming a 200 damage basic attack : Old Thornmail : 60 damage reflection New Thornmail : 30 and, in order to bypass the older thornmail damage, you need 120+ bonus armor. This is still a buff in most cases. Assuming a 300 damage basic attack : Old Thornmail : 90 damage reflection New Thornmail : 45 damage reflection and, in order to bypass the old thornmail damage, you need 180+ bonus armor. This is a BUFF if you already have another armor item. If you don't have, it is a NERF, except to Malphite and Rammus. Assuming a 400 damage basic attack : Old Thornmail : 120 damage reflection New Thornmail : 60 damage reflection and, in order to bypass the old damage , you need 240+.

In your example of attacking a tank that only has thornmail (100~150armor), yeah it's about half damage, however nearly everyone that mains a physical ranged carry also runs armor penetration &/or critical hit runes & masteries. They're also attacking roughly once per second, but often reaching higher than 2 times per second once they have a hurricane or phantom dancer. The lowest life steal item is the vampiric scepter at 8% but again life steal runes & masteries are fairly common for people playing these parts. So if the scepter is THE only lifesteal item the carry has and without any armor pen nor critical runes/masteries; then yes thornmail did out-do it's healing, but not any more. Once the carry passes 10% life steal, any armor penetration or critical hit boosts they have will over power the reflected damage, in the long run the carry will out last the tank.

Kuroi86Oct 17, 20151 votes

Once the carry passes 10% life steal, any armor penetration or critical hit boosts they have will over power the reflected damage, in the long run the carry will out last the tank.

First part wrong, second part right.

You neglected a few key factors.

Thornmail deals it's damage based on PRE-MITIGATION damage.

AKA if an auto would deal 1000 damage, Thornmail will return at LEAST 175 magic damage.

Life steal heals based on POST-MITIGATION damage.

AKA if an auto would deal 1000 damage and the attacker has a BT and the tank has 100 effective armor (That is after calculating all AR pen and % pen the tank still has around 100 armor.) Then said attack will be around 500 damage and heal for 100 health.

Armor penetration makes DPS more effective against armor, this is true, but outside of Black Cleaver which actually reduces your armor (Not counting the passives that can do this as well) no armor pen item will actually effect the damage that Thornmail reflects back.

Critical strike does not ignore armor and is in fact calculated in the Thornmail damage, as is most on hit effects like Bork. Crits and on-hit physical damage do not ignore armor. So with 100 effective health, Borks on-hit becomes 4% current health and so on.

in the long run the carry will out last the tank.

This is by design. In the late game the carry is supposed to out last the tank. The carry is meant to be the end class, they are supposed to close out games, this means that by design they have to reach a point where they can take the tank, solo if they must. I'm not thrilled with it and personally carries need to be toned back a little to really hit their power point at four-five items instead of three but that's just imo.

As you can see, stacking armor becomes more of a cost than a benefit beyond 250

This is an excellent point, one I've seen before. After 250 Ar it becomes redundant to build any more as health becomes much more cost efficient. This can actually be done with only two-three armor items depending on your boots. Tanks typically have around 70-90 innate armor, throw in runes and masteries and then grab either item 3110 or item 3075 and one of these three item 3068 item 3143 item 3742 and you should have near or over 250 armor.

Here's the thing, a lot of people seem to think ArPen and % damage make Armor moot, it doesn't. While it reduces the effectiveness of Armor, it still remains a powerful force to be reckoned with due to how easy it is to stack.

ZT XperimentorOct 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

First part wrong, second part right.

You neglected a few key factors.

Try it yourself with a buddy in a custom, you'll see what I'm talking about; attempt before being dismissive, it's for science after all.

Also what's the point of a tank, if they die in 2 hits while the carry they're protecting get's one-shot? Tanks fall behind faster than carries do because armor has detrimental diminishing returns while carries don't. Health stacks, but magic resist & armor fall off noticeably; meanwhile; damage, critical hit, penetration, & lifesteal stack without any diminishing returns. The system itself has been biased in favor of the carry for years (not to mention the other 3 core armor items got nerfed in the past year on-top of this one). Granted this may change depending on how badly the marksman change goes, but that's the point.

Part of why so few people LIKE to play tanks, is because they feel weaker than the support when they get put behind. They don't have mobility so they're often cheated out of assisting kills, they don't have damage or durability because most are heavily item dependent for something to synergize with, and they can't make flashy plays like carrys/assassins because they can't combo as effectively by design. I'm not talking about bruisers; the splice of tank & assassin that sacrifice crowd control for durability & damage. I'm talking about true tanks, like nautilus & zac; they have plenty of cc but can't combo without maxed cooldown reduction, they can't kill without some high powered item (death cap/void staff), they can't survive an enemy assassin/carry without a defensive item to even let them farm. Next to nothing but bruisers are played anymore, and it's depressing so see another meta topic grow so stale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3_i1TZSDGs

Kitten of EvilOct 16, 20159 votes

Since it's the auto-attacker defense item, I think it would be interesting to have it also reflect a percentage of magic and true damage on-hit effects. Would it really be too strong if it reflected 15% of Irelia or Yi's true damage?

RebonackOct 16, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3aVQgeER,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-10-16T16:13:47.509+0000)

Since it's the auto-attacker defense item, I think it would be interesting to have it also reflect a percentage of magic and true damage on-hit effects. Would it really be too strong if it reflected 15% of Irelia or Yi's true damage?

Maybe.

Maybe not.

That would make it better at what it does, but it wouldn't solve its fundamental problem. That it is totally useless unless you're being auto-attacked.

RenascentOct 16, 20159 votes

Another "Thornmail has been gutted" thread. That's why I've been keeping a bunch of records of Thornmail games for when the need arises.

In response to your "situational item - - -> trap item" claim, I would say it is instead "situational item - - -> core item on armor stacking builds".

As I've said in response to several other Thornmail threads, the new Thornmail allows tanks to snowball, as it is no longer entirely dependent on the enemy's lead to deal damage. There's still plenty of other armor items to use, but if you really want your return damage style back, grab a champion with taunt, stack armor, and watch the (purple) sparks fly!

Rammus (11/3/13) [Look at all these Thornmails] http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1978211433/52701114?tab=stats

vs 2 or less AD (5/1/2) http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1972352168/52701114?tab=overview (9/1/5) http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1970158857/52701114?tab=overview (7/10/33) http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1968152219/52701114?tab=overview (18/1/20) http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1964450166/52701114?tab=overview (9/4/20) http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1957559118/52701114?tab=overview (6/0/6) Ranked http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1942759334/52701114?tab=overview

average win (8/0/5) Ranked http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1974801166/52701114?tab=overview (19/3/16) http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1966804033/52701114?tab=overview (7/0/4) http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1965963216/52701114?tab=overview (17/1/6) http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1957356043/52701114?tab=overview (7/0/6) Ranked http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1870197831/215452559?tab=overview

Malphite (5/2/7) [Look at all these Thornmails] http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1972703552/215452559?tab=overview

mirror match (14/3/17) http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1973595604/52701114?tab=overview

average win (5/0/8) http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1963806913/215452559?tab=overview (9/1/0) http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1939393558/52701114?tab=overview

StraleyOct 16, 20155 votes

But have you tried thronmail on champs other than Rammus and Malphite?

TurquoiseYoshiOct 16, 201512 votes

Oh look, Rammus and Malph. The two champions that have kit tools to use armor. If you did it on someone like Mao'kai, or Sion, maybe it would look better. But that's like picking Galio and saying that building {Insert crappy MR item} is a good idea.

RenascentOct 16, 20152 votes

You act as though the new Thornmail isn't allowed to be good at all.

If you read my comment, I mentioned that Thornmail is now core on "armor-stacking builds". It is much easier to build it on the champions most known for being armor-stackers.

TurquoiseYoshiOct 16, 20158 votes

Except it's always been core on armor-stacking builds. If you're gonna stack armor, you take the item with the most armor. The problem is that it's now worthless in every other situation. Fed ADC? You used to be able to take Thornmail, but now you need all the other armor items to make it useful, meaning now that mid Ahri is going the wipe the floor with you.

If Malph and Rammus and Armorstacks weren't building Thornmail in any form, it would be like Yasuo not building IE. It's just going against what the design was to do. Now, if IE was made to have 60 AD, then few ADCs would buy it, but Yasuo still would for the crit boost.

RenascentOct 16, 20156 votes

The thing about Thornmail before is that the 30% return damage from autos for just 2100g allowed a lot of people who just wanted ADCs out of the picture to tack it onto their build.

Wanted to build health because you're a hp tank but that ADC's a problem? Grab a quick Thornmail.

Wanted to build resist for that AP heavy team, but they still got that one ADC to deal with? Just grab a Thornmail, problem solved.

Thornmail was really annoying for negating an entire role, so it got changed like Randuins when it still had the movespeed slow toward enemy auto-attackers.

I've seen many Malphites and Rammuses not build Thornmail. This is NOT just for enemy teams that have almost all AP champions; They do it because they want more team-oriented items.

Do you want to deal damage as the tank item 3075 ? Or do you want you and your team to last longer in a teamfight? item 3110 item 3143

The armor items we have now are diverse enough to suit MANY playstyles.

item 3075 Armor stacking / extra damage+waveclear item 3068 AoE magic / extra damage+waveclear item 3110 Enemy damage nullifier / teamfight utility item 3143 Enemy damage nullifier / teamfight utility item 3742 Speed / Roaming+initiation potential item 3025 Spellblade slow / extra damage+stickiness item 3056 Tower speed + Tower disable / Split-push + Tower-dive item 3512 Tower speed + Free minions / Split push + Extra lane pusher item 3026 Revive / Dissuades enemies from focusing you item 3157 High AP + Invulnerability / extra damage + outplay potential

For me, I like to complement item 3075 with item 3068 and item 3056 for a relentless split-pushing style. And yes, I do build Ohmwrecker frequently on Rammus and Malphite. Why? As mentioned above, it suits my playstyle of relentless split-pushing.

Ending note: Thornmail as it is now may not suit you anymore. However, there are people who still build it, and love it for what it is now. There are also MANY other armor items than just Thornmail; Tinker around with them, and you may just find a combination that suits you even more than old Thornmail did.

TurquoiseYoshiOct 17, 20156 votes

{quoted}

There are also MANY other armor items than just Thornmail

And that's the problem. There's no reason to get Thornmail, except when you're Armor-stacking or playing Malph/Rammus, because pretty much all of the other Armor items are better. ADC destroying you? Frozen Heart and/or Randuin's, depending on his build. Fed Yasuo? Randuin's. Need damage? Sunfire is more reliable and doesn't only hit the ADC. You feeling slow? Dead Man's. And we still haven't touched on Zeke's, Gauntlet, Zz'rot, Ohmwrecker, and the Tabi. There are just so many better options than Thornmail, and Thornmail requires so much to be useful, that unless I need to stack armor in One For All, I'm not buying it.

RenascentOct 17, 20153 votes

Judging by this reply you made, you didn't read EVERYTHING I put down. Understandable; It's a pretty long post.

I'll make a direct response to THIS post then:

There IS a reason to get Thornmail: For DAMAGE, especially when you love to put yourself in situations where you get focused on. However, this damage is only supplied by heavy armor builds, which imo is completely okay; It opens up new build paths that revolve around Thornmail, but if stacking armor is not the optimal choice for the game you're in, you still have Sunfire and the rest of the armor items. Which brings us to...

2.Every armor item fills their own purpose, as addressed in the post you replied to.

item 3110 - Helps reduce the damage output of enemy auto attackers in teamfights if they decide to focus your teammates. item 3143 - Helps you live longer in teamfights if you're getting focused by the ADC, and gives you follow-up AoE cc to your initiation. item 3068 - Grants persistent AoE magic damage, for extra oomph in waveclearing or for when you just want to contribute to damage in teamfights. item 3742 - Essentially mobility boots for tanks, makes roaming and initiations much easier.

Thornmail? Answered in point 1.

(Getting a little personal here, but...) When did this talk turn to One For All? I thought we were talking about the usefulness and purpose of Thornmail in a more competitive setting, not in a featured game mode where everybody is meant to HAVE FUN.

Also, I would like to dispute the validity of your claims of knowing how to use Zz'rot and Ohmwrecker to their full potential; I don't see them at all in your match history, and you don't play much of Summoner's Rift.

TurquoiseYoshiOct 17, 20154 votes

I did read everything, I just didn't respond to everything. I guess I'm just still not seeing the point of buying Thornmail except in extreme edge cases. You say that Thornmail now opens up new build paths, but those paths were already there. Now, they alternate paths are necessary to make Thornmail useful. You can no longer slap it onto your kit to try to negate some of the damage of an ADC, while still being somewhat defended from AP mids. My main point is that stacking armor will get you killed incredibly fast by any AP. It basically just turned into the opposite of Zeke's Herald, only useful when the enemy is full AD (as opposed to your team being full AD).

I brought up One For All just because that's the last time I used Thornmail. Sorry if that didn't make a whole ton of sense.

I don't play much Ranked, which is what you should only see in my match history, but I play a decent amount of normals on the weekend, and occasionally pick up Zz'rot late in a game. I don't use Ohmwrecker though. I don't think I ever said I use them a lot, just that they're an option that I would probably take over Thornmail against a team with an AP. I personally go with Randuin's, Frozen Heart, and Sunfire, in different orders (depends on the match), when I play tanks, as well as Aegis, Banshee's, and/or Visage. The others tend to be niche, or late game, after somebody has already won in most games.

RenascentOct 17, 20152 votes

I probably sounded exaggerated when I claimed new Thornmail opens up new build paths; I only have that mindset when playing my mains Rammus and Malphite.

But the fact still remains: There are new build paths that revolve around Thornmail.

I'm still not sure if anybody even bothered to look at the matches I posted in the original comment, so I'll post my build orders and reasoning in this one (This is for TOP Rammus and Malphite):

1.Up against an AD? item 1029 item 2003 4x item 2004 1x

- - -Is the AD a juggernaut or building tank instead? - - -> - - - ->
- - -Is the AD a squishy or an auto attacker (including ) - - -> Build or next, depending on which I didn't build yet.

Tanky AD's are usually spellcasters that won't be autoing as much as other AD's, so I get Sunfire to deal damage whether or not they want to auto me.

Squishy AD's might have a blast at the start of the match, or when I'm trying to farm up 1250g to complete Thornmail (that's an insane build price!), but once I finish it, they CAN'T KILL ME. Not Riven, not Vayne, no squishy AD can kill me without a gank, and even then they might die trying (I've had too many 2v1 ganks go horribly right for me).

2.Up against an AP? item 2041 item 2003 3x Or item 1028 2x Or if I'm feeling confident, item 1029 4x item 2004 1x

- - -Is the AP too problematic? - - -> - -> - - -> [Allows me to leave lane and refocus my efforts on building around Thornmail]
- - -Otherwise - - -> - - - -> - - - - - - ->

**Average "glancing passersby": Buh Renascent, building an armor item against AP? Dat so bad downvotedownvotedownvote - **

I'm referring to Rammus and Malphite here, they have much easier times sticking to armor builds even when up against AP because they both get damage from armor AND they have ways to deal with AP (Rammus gets free AP, Malphite gets free shields).

The new armor scaling on Thornmail also allows me to deal serious return damage to non-AD champs too, giving me damage against ALL champions on the enemy team, not just the ADC.

Also, remember the Defensive mastery tree rework a couple months back? The new Adaptive Armor, Enchanted Armor, and Legendary Guardian masteries let you get resist equal to item 1033 or more by JUST BUILDING ARMOR. To refresh your memory:

Adaptive armor: Gain 4% of your bonus magic resist/armor as armor/magic resist if you have more bonus magic resist/armor than armor/magic resist.

Enchanted Armor: Increases bonus armor and magic resist by 10%.

Legendary Guardian: +3 armor and magic resist for each nearby enemy champion.

The synergy between these masteries is so good that in half my games of going up against 2 or less AD teams I don't buy magic resist at all, because I get free resist by building armor.

**3.After getting **

- - -Am I at a good lead? - - - >
- - -Otherwise - - ->Whatever boots the situation calls for - - ->Homeguards
- - -AP too problematic? - - -> - - - >

If I'm fed, I don't bother building boots; I would rather increase my stats further to make it utterly impossible for my lane opponent, and even the jungler, to do anything about me. The Raptor Cloak line also gives an excellent speedboost around towers, which is actually a pretty good boot replacement. If I get to this sort of situation, it usually takes 3 of the enemy team to take me down.

If I'm not as fed as I want to be, I'll rush homeguards so I can restock on items and health and rush back to lane after taking a beating.

If the AP on the enemy team is getting to be a problem, I can always get Zz'rot instead of boots because want raw stats over speed as Rammus/Malphite; I can go in with these two, but I won't always be getting out so easily, so I want to be able to tank everything. Also, it's free pressure on a single lane, allowing me to help out the rest of my team since at this point, their AP may be running rampant with my allies helpless to deal with them on their own.

4. As a fourth item, I go actual damage

- - -Is the enemy team tanky (AP or AD doesn't matter)?
- - -Is the enemy team AP heavy (but squishy)?
- - -(For Rammus)Does the enemy team have an annoying auto attacker that kites all day?

Buh Renascent, you aren't building armor anymore? Whut happened to stacking armor all day downvotedownvotedownvote -

This build is meant to revolve around Thornmail, so it is NOT restricted to just stacking armor to take advantage of the armor scaling. Magic penetration has always had great synergy with Thornmail's return damage, as it is MAGIC DAMAGE. I did not include Void Staff here because as Rammus and Malphite, you get a bunch of free physical damage from building armor (Rammus passive and Malphite W).

**5. **

Straight up Dead Man's. This item is the Mobility Boots of Tanks, which when paired with one of the Raptor Cloak items, allows me to get 440+ movespeed on Rammus and Malphite WITHOUT GETTING BOOTS. End-game, if I bought boots at all, I'll sell them because I don't need them at all. I would much rather get even more items to become an even more powerful tank. Heck, at this point, when I deal so much damage while taking so little I might as well be considered a "juggernaut".

6. Anything else?

At this point, where I have item 3075 + item 3068 + [ item 3056 / item 3512 ] + [Damage item] + item 3742 , I only need one more item. I might have boots, but I'll eventually sell them for another item, since it's not part of my core itemset. Essentially, my last item will be whatever the situation calls for, but I usually never get to full build because I'll have won the game at this point.

I want to make people see that Thornmail still has a place in this game. More specificallly, the people who go on the boards just to complain about it and don't bother to figure out how it can be useful after the changes, because most of the league population DON'T GO ON THE BOARDS. These are the people who still build Thornmail, but aren't here to offer any helpful advice because they'll just get shot down by the people who refuse to listen.

You think you can do me a favor? Let me know what you WANT out of all this:

Do you want Thornmail to be a standalone item that negates an entire role's purpose in the game? That's not going to come back, and you know it.
Do you want Thornmail to deal damage? Find builds that revolve around Thornmail like I have.

I just want this debate/argument to end. It's getting tiring knowing that, no matter how much I post, no matter how many reasons I list off, and no matter how much evidence I provide through match results, I'm not getting THROUGH to anybody.

tl;dr I'm starting to know how Malicious Metal and all the other Morde mains feel. Though the item/champion we post continuously about aren't in the same situation, the fact that we post so much and don't get the responses we want out of it is extremely frustrating and sometimes depressing.

Kuroi86Oct 17, 20153 votes

Don't know why you'd stack Thornmails, the passive is unique so you're not going to get any bonuses from stacking them. There are plenty of armor items to grab and no reason not to stack them. item 3742 item 3110 item 3025 item 3143 item 3068

RenascentOct 17, 20152 votes

That game was for a fun normals. Ever since Frozen Heart got nerfed, Thornmail is now the highest armor you can get from one item. I stacked them to get the most armor I could, kind of like people getting all 80AD items to go full AD, or people going all RoA's.

Since I got some good results from that game, I included it in my records.

Kuroi86Oct 17, 20152 votes

Okay.

Still feel you'd have been better off with something like Sunfire, Deadmans or IBG.

RenstagaOct 16, 20155 votes

Thornmail now is the best thing to have happened to rammus. (Rammus main here). With his W and thronmail adc's cant touch you or they die. You can do this by forcing them (with your e) or lock down tank threats for peels and still present the only target for adcs and if they get out of position simple taunt them.

But i am in absolute agreement that thornmail is not longer pratical with other items now. It just really fits hand and hand with rammus.

RebonackOct 16, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Thornmail now is the best thing to have happened to rammus. (Rammus main here). With his W and thronmail adc's cant touch you or they die. You can do this by forcing them (with your e) or lock down tank threats for peels and still present the only target for adcs and if they get out of position simple taunt them.

But i am in absolute agreement that thornmail is not longer pratical with other items now. It just really fits hand and hand with rammus.

Doesn't that strike you as kind of bad, though?

Previously Thorn was a pretty good single armor item pick for someone who wanted to tell the enemy ADC not to focus them. It was still great on Rammus one way or the other. But this new version has drastically reduced the range of champions who can use it effectively. Unless you're Rammus, Taric, or Leona you need not apply.

An item going from 'situationally useful on most anyone' to 'maybe buy this on one of three champions' is a pretty awful change.

Sexy BraixenOct 16, 20154 votes

Giving it outright grievous wounds might make it too strong of an item. I think if they follow something like item 3053 where after a certain amount of damage is taken the armor activates a passive that applies grievous wounds. It sounds fitting towards the fantasy of the item too. An enchanted armor that punishes enemies the more they attack you.

RebonackOct 17, 20153 votes

Another "Thornmail has been gutted" thread. That's why I've been keeping a bunch of records of Thornmail games for when the need arises.

In response to your "situational item - - -> trap item" claim, I would say it is instead "situational item - - -> core item on armor stacking builds".

I'm pretty sure I explicitly stated that it's still good on champions with some form of armor scaling simply due to how their kits work. Rammus, Leona, Malphite, and Taric can all still use it because their respective kits multiply its effectiveness.

Previously Thorn was the armor equivalent of Banshee's. It was the item to buy if you didn't want a particular class of champions to focus you (or at least to punish them for doing so). Now it's ONLY an attractive pick on champions who can enhance it rather than being an anti-focus item anyone can pick up.

Critmaster GarenOct 16, 20152 votes

i have a sneaking suspicion that the new malphite was the reason thornmail got nerfed.

when you have almost 800 armor, and 4k health even the new nerfed thornmail becomes effective enough for an adc to kill himself on the thing despite last whisper. its a shame that i didnt play him after his rework when the old thornmail was there.

the basic idea of having the damage return scale off your armor isnt even that bad actually. it means the item becomes more effective against attack speed carries like vayne and kallista instead of only i.e. carries.

but it needs to get buffed. they could try to increase the armor scaling to 30% and the damage reflect to 20%

TritanOct 16, 20151 votes

ok, can i ask you this:

WHY?

ITS ALREADY INSANELY STRONG against ad, and its not a trap item. its a situational item, and its probably the best " situational item" riot has made in terms of viability.

whoops i meant to click on general discussion, not g and b, but its nice to see how stupid some people are once in a while

ModAttysu The PoroOct 16, 20155 votes

"Wow, let me buy this Thornmail as a tank against Fiora because she'll"

-An ally has been slain- -An ally has been slain- -An ally has been slain- -An ally has been slain-

"Maybe this wasn't such a good idea."

Saminus MaximusOct 17, 20151 votes

"giving it OnHit magic damage equal to some percentage of your armor (which would give it some neat synergy with the otherwise lonely Wit's End)" item 3075 item 3748 Tanks too stronk pls nerf.

RebonackOct 17, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Saminus Maximus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3aVQgeER,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2015-10-17T03:39:52.378+0000)

"giving it OnHit magic damage equal to some percentage of your armor (which would give it some neat synergy with the otherwise lonely Wit's End)" Tanks too stronk pls nerf.

To be fair, Thorn isn't a Tank item. It's a soak item, sure. But it isn't a Tank item. It doesn't afford you with anything that makes it more important to focus you. In fact, it actively discourages enemies from focusing you. Nor does it help you initiate fights. Items like Rightous Glory, Sunfire, and Frozen Heart are all actual Tank items because they increase a Tank's ability to generate threat and/or start fights where and when it will be an advantage to your team.

Giving Thorn some OnHit magic damage to make up for the reflect damage it lost would increase the threat the user poses in a fight, making them more of a target worth of focus. Though I would still argue that it would be more useful on Juggers or even heavy Fighters more so than Tanks.