Why do we have late game Hypercarries who are early game turret busters?

Vaelix·Aug 31, 2015·7 votes·891 views

Doesn't this mechanic allow them to circumvent their own weakness of the early game by allowing them to snowball a global gold advantage and get them into item / power spikes quicker?

Or to put it in other words.. Jinx/Tristy. They are late game monsters that you want to shut down early and try to prevent them from scaling. So doesn't allowing them to get early gold more easily than other carries, though their amazing tower pushing seem counter intuitive to their counterplay of 'Don't let them get early gold to scale with'?

(I've always felt there was a problem when a champion was able to counterplay THEIR OWN counterplay, or am I crazy?)

10 Comments

ErockandrollAug 31, 20152 votes

It takes more than Just a few turrets to Snowball into your rock solid late game.

Also it's getting to the turrets that's the tricky part. Many times have I tried playing Jinx or Trist, but I can't make use of my turret sieging power, unless I get help from my Jungler, or a lot of pressure from my support.

Earl EulrichAug 31, 20152 votes

same for Azir...I also think Riot doesn´t do enough to make sure lategame-hypercarries have trouble early on so that it´s ok for them to be rewarded later on. But as it is...e.g. in the LPL finals Imp firstpicked Kog´maw 3 times and won laning-phase without troubles in all games. Azir is pretty much unbeatable midlane early on due to his incredible efficient pushing-power and the long reach. Tris/Vayne/Jinx just can snowball out of hand insanly quick if you set up a kill, which is fairly easy to do with their kits.

So yea, I´d like to see a really weak early game on Champs that hyperscale into lategame aswell.

Thief of TimeAug 31, 20151 votes

Jinx is just crazy strong right now and what they need to do is make her base mana pool reduced because she just abuses rockets in lane, out harasses and out cc's most carries then outrades with mini if you try to go in to prevent her harass

Too TonAug 31, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=TriTail Anarchy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3ZfuKMNo,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-31T16:16:34.741+0000)

Jinx is just crazy strong right now and what they need to do is make her base mana pool reduced because she just abuses rockets in lane, out harasses and out cc's most carries then outrades with mini if you try to go in to prevent her harass

Vayne beats jinx from 6 on as long as vayne isn't chompered. This isn't even considering vayne lands e on a wall.

thumbnail9Aug 31, 20151 votes

Well if you leave an ADC alone with a turret its going to disappear.

Look at Cait she was the go to turret killer a long time ago and she doesn't even have a steroid. I do agree that we have an actually better version of Trist then we had before.

NarasimhaAug 31, 20151 votes

So doesn't allowing them to get early gold more easily than other carries, though their amazing tower pushing seem counter intuitive to their counterplay of 'Don't let them get early gold to scale with'?

Not necessarily. Pushing early is not always a good thing. It opens you up for ganks, which Jinx can be vulnerable to depending on her support. And more importantly, while taking a tower early grants immediate gold, it also backfires in that it lets the opponent farm much more safely than you. The small amount of gold you obtained by rushing the tower is soon lost when the enemy adc can free farm, and you can't push in to do the same.

SouL1essAug 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Not necessarily. Pushing early is not always a good thing. It opens you up for ganks, which Jinx can be vulnerable to depending on her support. And more importantly, while taking a tower early grants immediate gold, it also backfires in that it lets the opponent farm much more safely than you. The small amount of gold you obtained by rushing the tower is soon lost when the enemy adc can free farm, and you can't push in to do the same.

Wards are 75g each and unlike DotA, there isn't a limit to how many you can have on the map. How do you get ganked if you can cover the entire map in your vision? You only need around 3-4 wards to make sure you are absolutely aware of every single gank attempt on you. You even have recall to easily swat aside an gank attempt.

If you can't farm when the enemy loses map control due to tower being taken, it's your fault. It's a player skill issue. Making the enemy player lose the tower opens THEM up to ganks when they farm, and gives you more room to farm because you can push in further and take advantage of the gold in a single lane for longer.

Edit: on-topic, Tristana E should not damage towers at all. Jinx Minigun should gain a stack against towers but she cannot stack beyond the first stack on towers.

NarasimhaAug 31, 20151 votes

Wards are 75g each and unlike DotA, there isn't a limit to how many you can have on the map.

....Wait, what? There is very much a limit. What season are you talking about?

. Making the enemy player lose the tower opens THEM up to ganks when they farm, and gives you more room to farm because you can push in further and take advantage of the gold in a single lane for longer.

Again, I question where you're getting your information from. If you take down a tower, then you have to push to THEIR side to farm. Meaning their jungler has a shorter distance to go, and yours has much less pressure. You can't farm because, as you've said, you have to constantly ward and check everything. And if you're pushed, warding does it nothing. It only lets you know that the inevitable is coming from behind.

SouL1essSep 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If you take down a tower, then you have to push to THEIR side to farm. Meaning their jungler has a shorter distance to go, and yours has much less pressure. You can't farm because, as you've said, you have to constantly ward and check everything. And if you're pushed, warding does it nothing. It only lets you know that the inevitable is coming from behind.

So if you take down the enemy tower, the minions automatically gather between the enemy tier 1 and tier 2? No, lol. There is nothing that prevents you from recalling or leaving the lane between the enemy tier 1 and tier 2. If the jungle is properly warded, it shouldn't even be possible for you to be caught. You have recall to neutralize the threat. Pushing down the tower gives your team better control of the tower's jungle and it should make the enemy ADC more scared to farm, NOT you. You could always continue full push until it reaches the tier 1, like before, then go to another lane. Destroying the tier 1 tower doesn't change how you farm in the middle of the lane, aside from how you refuse to get farm beyond that point.
To be honest, three sight wards + a vision ward covers exactly every jungle entrance on one side of the map. It is impossible for you to not know if someone is coming to get you. You can tell your supports to help you ward so you don't have to spend 325g on keeping yourself alive (but you should always have a pink out since they have unlimited duration anyway).
A ward last from 3 minutes to eternity. What do you mean by "constantly ward and check everything"? There won't be an enemy sitting in the bush next to you because, hopefully, you warded further up instead of right in front of you (that's not how wards are used for a pusher) so you already know about 1500-3000 units ahead of time if they are coming.

NarasimhaSep 1, 20151 votes

Honestly, I had some answers typed out. And then I looked you up and figured whats the point? You haven't even played this season. What the hell are you doing here?