@Zed and being 'Healthy'

Vaelix·Mar 11, 2015·9 votes·1,215 views

So I've heard how Riot justifies Zeds strength and their belief that he has healthy game play patterns, which I disagree with. I'm going to list my reasoning as to why I have this belief and am curious to the general opinion for or against them. Now in my lists these are merely the issues I believe to be unhealthy, as realistically there is a lot more going on, his roaming, his splitpushing, etc.. But those are strengths I agree with as part of his identity.

In pretty much all cases these are fairly accurate, watching LCS, playing against Zed, spectating games.

Zed is safe to pick into nearly every champion match up. Zed is safe to pick into nearly every jungle match up. Zed does not have to itemize against his opponent, regardless of the pick. Zed does not have to itemize into his resource, allowing a very effective build path every time. Zed does not have to choose his Summoner spell based on the match up, taking ignite instead for universal kill secure. Zed itemizes for sustain allowing him to have staying power in lane, combined with nearly resource less wave clear. Zeds passive makes for completely mindless CSing.. Is the minion below 50%? Then you've got perfect CSing. Zeds CS pattern is safe, easy, and reliable, making it nearly impossible to fall off, regardless of being a high pressure 'Assassin'.

Vs.

A lot of picks are not safe into Zed. Champions must itemize against Zed, hurting their early resource. Champions usually need to itemize resource anyway, making their build path even less effective against Zed. Champions usually need to choose Exhaust against Zed to survive his all in, which is on a much longer CD than his kill potential. Champions usually aren't able to itemize for sustain as its Midlane and they are mages, combined with a gated resource, leads to less staying / roaming. Champions which itemize against Zed do not itemize resource early and struggle much more than Zed for CSing or get into his range through AAs.

TLDR : Zeds existence dictates who can be picked into him, how they itemize early game, which summoners they take, and how they play the game. Something that Zed generally doesn't have to bother with at all. These factors hinder champion picks, champion builds, early CSing potential, and early roaming potential from longer CSing, and all of these factors are generally decided not as the game progresses, but in champion select, merely from Zed being picked.

Please tell me how I'm wrong and explain why..

21 Comments

KieferrMar 11, 20155 votes

I agree with everything you said. This champ's kit is inherently toxic and unfun to play against. I think his passive should no longer work on minions, and shorten the time limit of when he can shadow back from his ulti.

EedatMar 11, 20154 votes

Zed does not have to itemize against his opponent, regardless of the pick.

"OK, don't build a sash then huehue" - Lissandra

ForgiveColourMar 11, 20154 votes

more healthy that katarina

MrPerson10Mar 11, 20152 votes

His kit, while healthy, also provides a lot of counterplay. Obviously you don't remember season 3 Zed where death mark had absolutely no visual effect.

Zed does not have to itemize against his opponent, regardless of the pick.

Totally false. You get caught in a Lux snare, you get 1/2 your health deleted without item 3155

AHeroNamedHawkeMar 11, 20152 votes

"A safe pick into any matchup"

Annie Lissandra Leblanc Vladimir Viktor Cassiopeia

Definitely not a terrible idea

Tannhäuser GateMar 11, 20152 votes

add the king of 1V1 mid as well Malzahar

AHeroNamedHawkeMar 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

add the king of 1V1 mid as well

Also true, though not many people play Malz

Tannhäuser GateMar 11, 20151 votes

But they should not qq no zed counters OMG

ScreamPasteMar 11, 20151 votes

Make his ult shadow blink cost energy so he has to sacrifice some amount of burst for safety, bam, he actually has decisions to make like other champions.

shalecMar 11, 20151 votes

Most assassins dictate the playstyle of the opposing laner. Mages usually have a harder time surviving against them and have to adapt to survive. That is simply the nature of the average mage versus assassin matchup. Exhaust lowers their damage and allows the mage to fight back and negate a large part of the assassins burst damage.

     Zed is especially weak to exhausts in skirmishes as Death Mark does more damage based on the damage Zed dealt. As far as builds go, Hourglass has a good build path for laning and gives 120 Ability Power, so damage isn't lost. You should always adapt your builds based on matchups and compositions. It's not forced upon you and it's possible to beat Zed without these items and spells, but having these makes the matchup easier and more in your favor. 

    Zed also has some key weaknesses to take advantage of. In lane, Zed has to use his only escape to harass effectively, and his w has an extremely long cooldown, so get a jungler to gank him. His ultimate is also a huge part of his damage and assassination potential, so removing it entirely does hurt Zed substantially.

Kitten of EvilMar 11, 20151 votes

I mean, you should be adapting your build regardless of your lane opponent. Are you winning? Damage! Are you losing? Defense!

Against any assassin you, as a mage, should be playing cautiously. Zed shouldn't be able to all-in you and kill you until level 6 anyway, unless you're out of position or miss your CCs/spells.

I agree it sucks that against most assassins (let's be honest, it's not just Zed) you have to build defense before you can build mana/mana regen.

AMYS GRAVEMar 11, 20151 votes

I think you're right. I wish riot would do something meaningful about his playstyle and impact on the game even when he is behind.

AHeroNamedHawkeMar 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think you're right. I wish riot would do something meaningful about his playstyle and impact on the game even when he is behind.

If Zed was an asset to the team while behind his win rate wouldn't be 46%

AMYS GRAVEMar 11, 20152 votes

You have to look at more than just winrates when evaluating a champion. For a start I usually like to look at pick, ban, and win rates.

Zed for instance has a high pick rate and ban rate with a low win rate. This tells us that his kit is overloaded and unfun to play against (hence the high ban rate) and he can take over games (hence the high pick rate, i mean who doesn't love to control the game). Despite this he is actually underpowered because even though he does so, he doesn't win games. All of this points toward his unhealthy play style. He may have effective counters but that doesn't mean he is a healthy champion.

AHeroNamedHawkeMar 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You have to look at more than just winrates when evaluating a champion. For a start I usually like to look at pick, ban, and win rates.

Zed for instance has a high pick rate and ban rate with a low win rate. This tells us that his kit is overloaded and unfun to play against (hence the high ban rate) and he can take over games (hence the high pick rate, i mean who doesn't love to control the game). Despite this he is actually underpowered because even though he does so, he doesn't win games. All of this points toward his unhealthy play style. He may have effective counters but that doesn't mean he is a healthy champion.

Liss is picked/banned more and has a higher win rate

How about we deal with actually overpowered champions first

AMYS GRAVEMar 11, 20151 votes

Liss is picked/banned more and has a higher win rate

http://www.lolking.net/champions/zed#statistics

http://www.lolking.net/champions/lissandra#statistics

Zed has a pick rate of 18.75% while Liss has 7.57%. Their ban rates are 37% Zed to 59% Liss. This means that if you look at games where they were not banned people pick zed at three to four times the rate.

Zed pick rate given that he wasn't banned: 11.8%

Liss pick rate given that she wasn't banned: 3.1%

This is actually quite telling because people perceive Liss as much stronger than Zed while she still has an overall win rate of 51.15%. This is a good win rate but isn't so outstanding that it demands attention. Yes Liss has a high ban rate, but it isn't coupled with a high pick rate and a high win rate.

http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=champion-popularity&range=weekly&map=sr&queue=normal&league=ranked

By popularity Zed is #12 while liss doesn't make the top 15.

http://lolbuilder.net/lissandra#win-rates-over-time

http://lolbuilder.net/zed#win-rates-over-time

Lissandra also has a much smoother power curve so she doesn't unexpectedly (if you don't know these power curves) take over games.

How about we deal with actually overpowered champions first

Either way actually OP champions (high pick, ban and win rates) should take priority. Lissandra just isn't actually one of those. Meanwhile that doesn't mean that the state of other champions being ignored is ok, and discussions about the other champions isn't something to be discouraged.

EDIT: haha, literally as i post this the patch 5.5 notes came out saying they are nerfing Lissandra.

AHeroNamedHawkeMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted} queue=normal

http://i.imgur.com/vQhkvLZ.jpg[/img]

Try this

http://i.imgur.com/LPcEIsl.png[/img]

AMYS GRAVEMar 12, 20151 votes

OK then, if you only want to look at ranked I'll be happy to redo the math for you.

pick rates in games where they are not banned 5.1% Lissandra 9.1% Zed

Zed is still ahead, nothing about my previous post has changed except Lissandra's win rate went down by 1.5% so she is even less OP than you claim. People ban Lissandra more because they perceive her as stronger, but when given the opportunities to pick Lissandra and Zed it is Zed that gets picked more often. It's called conditional probabilities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_probability

I'm not sure what your point is because this hasn't really changed the story.

AHeroNamedHawkeMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

OK then, if you only want to look at ranked I'll be happy to redo the math for you.

pick rates in games where they are not banned 5.1% Lissandra 9.1% Zed

Zed is still ahead, nothing about my previous post has changed except Lissandra's win rate went down by 1.5% so she is even less OP than you claim. People ban Lissandra more because they perceive her as stronger, but when given the opportunities to pick Lissandra and Zed it is Zed that gets picked more often. It's called conditional probabilities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_probability

I'm not sure what your point is because this hasn't really changed the story.

Zed is picked 2% more Liss is banned 22% more

Zed is at a 46% win rate, 3% lower than Liss, but Zed is somehow more of an issue than Liss

And that still means he's worthless when behind, as I stated

AMYS GRAVEMar 12, 20151 votes

Zed is picked 2% more

Not in games where they are not banned. It's called conditional probability, and it is our friend.

Liss is banned 22% more

So people perceive her as strong, even though she still has a 49.6% winrate. That doesn't make her strong it just means that people think she's strong.

Zed is at a 46% win rate, 3% lower than Liss, but Zed is somehow more of an issue than Liss

I never said that, but Zed is an issue worth discussing. So is Lissandra but she is objectively not OP as you claim.

ok

Rammus

And that still means he's worthless when behind, as I stated

That's not what that means at all. When Zed is behind he gets free last hitting under tower thanks to his passive and can farm himself back into relevancy. His win rates over time reflect this.

http://lolbuilder.net/zed#win-rates-over-time

He can be shut down mid-game (see the 25 min dip), but by end game he can always be relevant. Zed can shut you down, but you can't shut down Zed.