Dynamic Q - Its bad and finally Explained with reason

S H A Y C 0·Jun 13, 2016·117 votes·5,872 views

Riot, plz watch this with your mind open.

EDIT: Another side of DQ that ruins ranks.

BoostDay Tuesday - N3AC3Y

literally advertising "sub to my channel on tuesday and ill boost you"...this is bad.

144 Comments

superweenyhutJun 13, 201611 votes

Can a rioter please respond to anyone in the community about why they are so steadfast in their choice? I understand the investment in DQ and they don't want to back pedal immediately and lose some $$ but when such a huge number of players complains, you can't believe you know whats best for them..

S H A Y C 0Jun 13, 201611 votes

they claim overwhelming majority in their "stats" but they wont show us the stats

ModAcademy KaynJun 13, 20163 votes

Real quick question, would people believe the stats regardless? What's to stop people from saying those stats aren't real?

DaenJun 13, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3UHLbK86,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2016-06-13T21:37:50.729+0000)

Real quick question, would people believe the stats regardless? What's to stop people from saying those stats aren't real?

It depends on how Riot displays the stats. If it's done to intentionally mask real data, like they did in their Dynamic Queue announcement with that graph showing how big a difference exists by queueing with a premade, people will tear it apart. If it's done such that it's an impartial look at the data they are using, it'll be far easier to accept.

NazuzONLYJun 13, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Can a rioter please respond to anyone in the community about why they are so steadfast in their choice? I understand the investment in DQ and they don't want to back pedal immediately and lose some $$ but when such a huge number of players complains, you can't believe you know whats best for them..

they call this the blizzard effect

case n point, look how that went

Fenikkusu1Jun 13, 20163 votes

See for this to happen Riot would have to actually give a damn about the community opinion

The Yetii RiderJun 13, 201610 votes

The top 1% get screwed over. Fine, The other 6 million players are mostly positively affected. And as he points out, the top 1% gain the most from the game. They make streaming or YouTube careers out of it, they are professional players.

They can put up with a bad experience if it earns them money. Every other minimum wage job is miserable.

The Bronze/Silver/Gold players shouldn't be punished by losing a system that supports their playstyle just because the Plats/Diamonds/Masters feel like their individual skill is less relevant. Not completely meaningless, less relevant.

sirfuhkstainJun 13, 201634 votes

how are the 6mil positively affected? i'm silver my friends are all bronze-plat and the feeling of dynamic que being shit is mutual. It doesn't add anything positive, role selection does, not dynamic que

The Yetii RiderJun 13, 20166 votes

{quoted}

how are the 6mil positively affected? i'm silver my friends are all bronze-plat and the feeling of dynamic que being shit is mutual. It doesn't add anything positive, role selection does, not dynamic que

Toxicity is way down, as Riot has stated.

If you're in a game with premades, you don't get yelled at nearly as much.

And of course, plenty of people at that level just want to premade. Now they can.

sirfuhkstainJun 13, 201633 votes

too bad i just read a thread about the real reason "toxicity" is down, and it's not because of dynamic que. 2 reasons for that,

everybody is getting the role they want so no more zed/yasuo mids in the same game
people are playing ranked together and not reporting there friends. If in a game with premades it feels awful because you're the 5th wheel and even if they're a fine group you are reminded of all the horrible premades you have dealt with, or will deal with or you just feel bad for the solo on the other team who got the shitter premade. Who is plenty of people? the amount of people actively choosing to solo/duo compared to the small amount that premade is mind blowing. Go look up any active numbers of players grouped vs players soloing, you will rethink how you feel about dq

Mandang0Jun 13, 201646 votes

^This. Riot's pulled a fast one by releasing the new champ select at the same time as dynamic queue, allowing them to claim any improvements in ranked are due to (the controversial) dynamic queue rather than (the universally-loved) new champ select.

sirfuhkstainJun 13, 201623 votes

agreed x10

arrowhead21kJun 13, 20162 votes

Your second reason is exactly what dynamic que is for. You are contradicting your self.

sirfuhkstainJun 13, 201614 votes

then don't call it ranked

arrowhead21kJun 17, 20161 votes

What are you trying to say? I just said you were contradicting yourself. it has nothing to with ranked.

S H A Y C 0Jun 13, 201619 votes

just saying the words "toxicity is down" doesnt make it down. Lets try it, "I am the richest man alive and have the worlds largest penis" ....nope nothing happened. Every match ive been in, either my team or the enemy team is toxic is hell.

To make a point, i was told if i fed that our adc would "kill my dad" and even better than that, i posted about it and somehow i get downvoted and more quotes about how toxicity is down, just ask riot appear over and over appear all around me.

its wishful thinking. its not down. the same people that were playing before are playing now..theres just less people since they took a dump on their game and people are quitting

BlanchimontJun 13, 201614 votes

Funny thing for me is that toxicity has gone way up since the introduction of Dynamic Queue. In my ranked games this season, I have experienced more toxic players than all of my previous seasons COMBINED.

The Yetii RiderJun 13, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=S H A Y C 0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3UHLbK86,comment-id=0003000000000001,timestamp=2016-06-13T19:06:23.366+0000)

just saying the words "toxicity is down" doesnt make it down. Lets try it, "I am the richest man alive and have the worlds largest penis" ....nope nothing happened. Every match ive been in, either my team or the enemy team is toxic is hell.

To make a point, i was told if i fed that our adc would "kill my dad" and even better than that, i posted about it and somehow i get downvoted and more quotes about how toxicity is down, just ask riot appear over and over appear all around me.

its wishful thinking. its not down. the same people that were playing before are playing now..theres just less people since they took a dump on their game and people are quitting

Did you watch the Round Table? They said toxicity was down to a level they thought impossible.

VvVVvVJun 13, 201611 votes

The only reason they say toxicity is down is mainly because of, like everyone says, the new champ select. Any improvement in toxicity that comes from Dynamic Que is only because people are not reporting their friends. That does not mean people that were toxic before are no longer toxic.

And I personally have seen no decrease in the amount of toxicity in the games im in........hell just earlier today i was in the game were our DUO premade bot lane started cursing each other out .

The Yetii RiderJun 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The only reason they say toxicity is down is mainly because of, like everyone says, the new champ select. Any improvement in toxicity that comes from Dynamic Que is only because people are not reporting their friends. That does not mean people that were toxic before are no longer toxic.

And I personally have seen no decrease in the amount of toxicity in the games im in........hell just earlier today i was in the game were our DUO premade bot lane started cursing each other out .

It's not just people not reporting their friends. It's friends being able to complain and bitch about the problem player on their team out loud instead of in chat. Just a healthier system overall.

VvVVvVJun 13, 20169 votes

Like i said....i have seen no change in that. in fact i have seen the exact opposite. You say "out loud" as if every premade is using a voice chat, which is not the case.

I have seen many games were a 3 or 4 man premade just completely goes in verbally abusive on a player in a game. And most of the time its a issue between 1 player not in their premade and 1 payer that is, and then the other 2 or 3 in the premade just join in verbally abusing the other person just because they are in the premade. They can have absolutely nothing to do with the conversation or what went on to cause the 2 players to start arguing but they just jump in to back their premade teammate right or wrong. I have seen this MANY times and have even had it happen to me.

I hate to repeat a didfferent post i made awhile ago but a prime example of this is when I was teamed with a 4 man premade...i was the solo. My support was not supporting, was just running around the jungle and then going mid. i was stuck bot alone 1v2 and 1v3 when ganks came. so after getting turret dived i left the bot lane and went mid to group and i get told to go back bot. i asked team to report the support and they respond by telling me to go back bot or they were all going to report me. This is when it became clear to me they were a 4 man premade. Everytime i died all they did was lol or lmao in the chat. They would ping a enemy or objective and then when i went to it they would all back off even if we outnumbered them. A few times i would be geting attacked and they could of easily saved me but they would just run back and then laugh in the chat when i died.

this was cearly my worst experience i ever had in the game and it was only possible because of the DQ system allowing large premade groups. I have been playing for over 3 years and i have never experienced something like that in soloQ.

The Yetii RiderJun 14, 20162 votes

All of that is anecdotal. Riot has hard numbers that tell them toxicity is down, way lower than they expected it to be.

JafarThePandaJun 14, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3UHLbK86,comment-id=000300000000000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-14T00:13:40.747+0000)

All of that is anecdotal. Riot has hard numbers that tell them toxicity is down, way lower than they expected it to be.

No source = No care

BlanchimontJun 14, 20163 votes

I disagree. The rate of toxicity I have encountered in my games this season have been far higher than previous games combined. There's less toxicity in champ select and flat out just saying things like "mid or feed," but in game it is much higher than ever before.

The Yetii RiderJun 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I disagree. The rate of toxicity I have encountered in my games this season have been far higher than previous games combined. There's less toxicity in champ select and flat out just saying things like "mid or feed," but in game it is much higher than ever before.

You can disagree all you want, but Riot has data and research backing them up. And even if your experience is worse, and everyone else on these boards is worse, NA is only one region. A small region that doesn't contribute nearly as much to the community as Korea or Europe.

And in Korea, where people are paid by the state to play online games like it's their job, you have so many people playing seriously that teams can form way more often just by pairing up with other guys in the Internet cafe. Dynamic Queue helps those people climb all day.

BlanchimontJun 14, 20163 votes

Post sources and relevant data please.

BlanchimontJun 14, 20162 votes

People definitely complain less about the roles that they have to play, which is a big factor because there were a lot of people who complained when they did not get the role they wanted. This is what the new champ select, or the ability to select the roles that you wanted to play come in. A lot of players are now getting to play the role they want, so they don't complain about that part of it and don't have to carry out their "mid or feed" threats. But is this a fix to the behavior of the players? Definitely not because it does not deal with the primary issues that stem from in game, like when someone gives up first blood, or when a support takes a kill simply because the carry cannot. These are still problems in the game that have yet to be addressed and since the introduction of Dynamic Queue, has become a lot more frequent from at least my own experience.

VvVVvVJun 13, 20167 votes

There are only 2 types of people that prefer premades..

People that just want to play with their friends.
People that are looking to get carried.

Fenikkusu1Jun 13, 20168 votes

Looking to get boosted you mean.

JafarThePandaJun 14, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3UHLbK86,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-06-13T16:34:19.306+0000)

Toxicity is way down, as Riot has stated.

If you're in a game with premades, you don't get yelled at nearly as much.

And of course, plenty of people at that level just want to premade. Now they can.

No numbers at all to support it No actual surveys done by them support dynamic queue Go be misinformed somewhere else

BlanchimontJun 14, 20166 votes

I have to agree with this. In my games this season, I've experienced more toxicity since the introduction of Dynamic Queue than my journey through all of the previous seasons (including going from level 1 to 30) combined.

DaenJun 13, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3UHLbK86,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-06-13T16:15:52.470+0000)

The top 1% get screwed over. Fine, The other 6 million players are mostly positively affected. And as he points out, the top 1% gain the most from the game. They make streaming or YouTube careers out of it, they are professional players.

They can put up with a bad experience if it earns them money. Every other minimum wage job is miserable.

The Bronze/Silver/Gold players shouldn't be punished by losing a system that supports their playstyle just because the Plats/Diamonds/Masters feel like their individual skill is less relevant. Not completely meaningless, less relevant.

Where are you getting that 6 million figure from?

2a) Why on earth would we want to force the most influential and competitive players to put up with a bad experience, especially if we validate that by saying "they make money so they can deal with it"?

2b) Why are we assuming that the negative experiences of the most influential and competitive players don't trickle down to many other people? If people in Challenger don't like being in Challenger, people in Master might decide it's not worth it. If people in Master don't feel like being competitive, what point is there in moving from Diamond to Master?

Here's the thing: I'm gold, and Dynamic Queue does not support my playstyle. The whole point of League of Legends' ranked system is to reward individual skill, why else would it show individual rank and involve individual rewards?

The Yetii RiderJun 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Where are you getting that 6 million figure from?

2a) Why on earth would we want to force the most influential and competitive players to put up with a bad experience, especially if we validate that by saying "they make money so they can deal with it"?

2b) Why are we assuming that the negative experiences of the most influential and competitive players don't trickle down to many other people? If people in Challenger don't like being in Challenger, people in Master might decide it's not worth it. If people in Master don't feel like being competitive, what point is there in moving from Diamond to Master?

Here's the thing: I'm gold, and Dynamic Queue does not support my playstyle. The whole point of League of Legends' ranked system is to reward individual skill, why else would it show individual rank and involve individual rewards?

You're right, the last figure released was 27 million people that log on each day. So the bottom 98% is somewhere around 25 million people who are benefiting or gaining neutral value from Dynamic Queue.
Because they are suffering so that everyone else can experience a better system.
Riot has changed that system entirely. League of Legends rank is now a display of your ability to coordinate with your team, supply vision, rotate and trade effectively and control neutral objectives. All of these are much better represented by a premade with communication than by individual skill.

DaenJun 13, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3UHLbK86,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2016-06-13T21:57:05.131+0000)

You're right, the last figure released was 27 million people that log on each day. So the bottom 98% is somewhere around 25 million people who are benefiting or gaining neutral value from Dynamic Queue.

I speak only for myself, but I feel I am losing value from Dynamic Queue despite being in the bottom percentages. If you are going to insinuate that the vast majority of the community is benefiting, you'll need to provide statistics to back up that claim.

Because they are suffering so that everyone else can experience a better system.

Is the system truly better for everyone else, though? Is the ability to carry each other through the ranks worth losing individual agency and a ton of support from the most influential players in the game?

I wouldn't be surprised if the impact of Dynamic Queue's toxicity reduction is overstated, and anecdotally I've actually derived more frustration from having to play with large premades than when it was limited to one duo per team.

Riot has changed that system entirely. League of Legends rank is now a display of your ability to coordinate with your team, supply vision, rotate and trade effectively and control neutral objectives. All of these are much better represented by a premade with communication than by individual skill.

Nothing is really shared in ranked other than the ability to play with friends; ranks are separate, promotional games aren't handled the same way across the premade, etc. I'm Gold III, but someone I'm in a premade with might be Platinum I or Silver V and that's directly linked to each person's individual skill level.

All ranking done through the system specifically rewards individual play, despite what Riot is saying to the contrary. Dynamic Queue was introduced to enhance teamplay, but it doesn't have any of the supportive systems necessary for it to actually accomplish that goal.

Also, how do you respond to the fact it's now impossible to play in the ranked ladder as a full premade (the purest definition of teamwork in League of Legends) if you are one of the game's most competitive and skilled players?

The Yetii RiderJun 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't be surprised if the impact of Dynamic Queue's toxicity reduction is overstated, and anecdotally I've actually derived more frustration from having to play with large premades than when it was limited to one duo per team.

If you're not going to believe the company's words when they reach out to talk to us, then you're only discouraging Riot from further communicating.

Also, how do you respond to the fact it's now impossible to play in the ranked ladder as a full premade (the purest definition of teamwork in League of Legends) if you are one of the game's most competitive and skilled players?

I...don't care? The large majority of premades and full premades are unaffected. Large majority. Like...20 million+ players every day that can play whatever premade or solo they want. And maybe 3-4 million who can "only" play with up to 3 people. Seems fair to me. That's how you compromise.

JambajewzJun 14, 20166 votes

If you're not going to believe the company's words when they reach out to talk to us, then you're only discouraging Riot from further communicating.

By this logic we should believe cigarette companies if they tell us that their product doesn't cause cancer, or we should believe the government if they tell us that putting us in work camps is what's best for us and the country. How is questioning the validity of their claims a bad thing? They've refused to provide us with any of the data that they're using to substantiate their claims, for all we know they could be outright lies. Toxicity could be down because they got rid of the tribunal and people feel like reporting other players doesn't accomplish anything anymore.

DaenJun 14, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3UHLbK86,comment-id=00030001000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-13T22:59:50.711+0000)

If you're not going to believe the company's words when they reach out to talk to us, then you're only discouraging Riot from further communicating.

What I want is for Riot to communicate honestly and with their cards on the table. The way they have communicated this issue to the community thus far is basically "we have data that supports our conclusions, but since it's private you'll just have to trust us", and that is not how you encourage reasonable discourse.

I...don't care? The large majority of premades and full premades are unaffected. Large majority. Like...20 million+ players every day that can play whatever premade or solo they want. And maybe 3-4 million who can "only" play with up to 3 people. Seems fair to me. That's how you compromise.

If League of Legends is a competitive team game and yet the most competitive players can't play as a team, there is a fundamental problem with the structure of the experience.

The Yetii RiderJun 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If League of Legends is a competitive team game and yet the most competitive players can't play as a team, there is a fundamental problem with the structure of the experience.

There's just not enough players at that elo to reasonably match up opponents. That has nothing to do with Dynamic Queue. That problem has always existed, it's just that now instead of waiting an hour to be matched against 5 plats, high level teams just don't play at all. Seems about the same in terms of effectiveness.

The game is TOO competitive. F there's only so many people allowed in Master and Challenger how can any 5 players in that level expect there will be another 5 players around the same level queuing up at any time?

DaenJun 14, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3UHLbK86,comment-id=0003000100000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-06-14T04:24:11.556+0000)

There's just not enough players at that elo to reasonably match up opponents. That has nothing to do with Dynamic Queue. That problem has always existed, it's just that now instead of waiting an hour to be matched against 5 plats, high level teams just don't play at all. Seems about the same in terms of effectiveness.

Queue times went up significantly for high tier players with the addition of Dynamic Queue/New Champion Select, though a lot of this can be attributed to NCS more than it can be attributed to DQ.

That being said, the fact professional players are deciding to completely ignore the ranked ladder is making the problem much worse than it has been in the past, and that can be attributed almost entirely to these changes.

The game is TOO competitive. F there's only so many people allowed in Master and Challenger how can any 5 players in that level expect there will be another 5 players around the same level queuing up at any time?

Master is not capped. Regardless, the issue isn't the number of people in Master/Challenger, it's that the top players' MMR is far higher than everyone else's. As you mentioned before, the North American region is not large enough or skilled enough to support a significant population of Master/Challenger quality players.

The question to ask, at this stage, is to wonder if there's anything that can possibly be done to raise the overall skill and competitiveness of the region. I'd argue that Dynamic Queue diminishes this, as does the fact that there aren't training exercises players can easily engage with and the fact replays can be a pain to deal with.

To me, Dynamic Queue is the wrong solution to the right problem. You're absolutely right about the issues that exist and Riot's intent for fixing them, but Dynamic Queue (and autofill) made all of these problems significantly worse while slightly improving the experience for people that didn't even play ranked in the way it enabled beforehand.

VvVVvVJun 13, 20165 votes

What makes you think Dynamic que supports most peoples play style? You can tell how the majority of the community feels about it just by looking at the hundreds of posts about it every day. And I have yet to see one post by smeone that fully supports the DQ system, not one.

The Yetii RiderJun 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

What makes you think Dynamic que supports most peoples play style? You can tell how the majority of the community feels about it just by looking at the hundreds of posts about it every day. And I have yet to see one post by smeone that fully supports the DQ system, not one.

That's because it's not finished yet. No one would fully support a system that results in 30 minute queue times or pushes pro players onto their own server.

Riot is still working to perfect the system.

I like Dynamic Queue because even though sometimes I get stomped by teams that rotate way better, generally my games are much quieter. No one says anything, everyone is just pinging. Way easier to concentrate. I haven't seen anyone swearing or cursing or generally yelling. It's a good system.

VvVVvVJun 13, 20162 votes

Well I can honestly put my hand over my heart or on a bible and say you are the 1st person Ive seen say on these threads that they like the DQ system. And i come on here at least 3 times a day.

BlanchimontJun 14, 20165 votes

If Dynamic Queue was not finished, it should have remained in the PBE or whatever their test servers are for further testing before being released. You're not supposed to release a broken product unless its on a limited scale for testing purposes. There were serious complaints from players that largely went ignored. There's no point in releasing a broken system that screws over the professional players AND results in broken matchmaking for everyone else. This defeats the whole purpose of a ranked game if the system cannot even organize fair or competitive games. In the 83 ranked games I've played so far since the introduction of Dynamic Queue, I only ever felt like 1 game was close or truly competitive. Many of my games have had players with Platinum rank portraits from last season that are often singlehandedly deciding games. There is no good reason for why these players are playing in Silver tier games.

The league system was already bad enough by making players win 3 out of 5 games to move up a rank. Now you have to win 3 out 5 with players that are potentially 2 tiers above you.

Xenos11111Jun 14, 20165 votes

As part of this other 99%, I don't feel positively affected by dynamic queue whatsoever. It screws over everything I liked about the ranked system, and here's some food for thought:

Ranked isn't meant to be casual. That's what normals are for.

The Yetii RiderJun 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

As part of this other 99%, I don't feel positively affected by dynamic queue whatsoever. It screws over everything I liked about the ranked system, and here's some food for thought:

Ranked isn't meant to be casual. That's what normals are for.

This step by Riot was made to make the game more competitive. Now players who were too intimidated to even try ranked can get in with their friends, and smurf accounts can be used to play with an entire group of people the second you hit 30.

Some people argue that it has made the game less competitive at the higher ranks, but in the unranked/bronze/silver you have more people playing and lots of people playing together.

Xenos11111Jun 14, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3UHLbK86,comment-id=000300030000,timestamp=2016-06-14T13:33:31.622+0000)

This step by Riot was made to make the game more competitive. Now players who were too intimidated to even try ranked can get in with their friends, and smurf accounts can be used to play with an entire group of people the second you hit 30.

You literally just made the point that dynamic queue facilitates boosting. How the hell does that make the game more competitive?

Dominick DestineJun 13, 20169 votes

What do you mean "finally"? we've been pointing out the logical flaws and inconsistencies with the broken system since even before it was implemented.

ShhYoureMutedJun 13, 20168 votes

Some people can't stand the truth.

EWBS MithileshJun 14, 20166 votes

riot bans people for boosting while DQ encourages boosting (encourages by IE players getting higher up by having friends/smurfs/paying)
ranked measures the individual, yet with DQ you can get an individual rating by group playing. thus by playing groups, there is less individual skill. it culminates to an individual gaining an individual rating based on group skill and not individual skill.
the aforementioned takes away the competitive nature of the game, and yet ranked is supposed to be competitive?
the aforementioned makes it to where individual skill doesn't matter.
what DQ encourages leads to the assumption: my rank gained doesn't matter.

BlanchimontJun 14, 20163 votes

I have to agree with this. Dynamic Queue feels more like it's something that should be for people who want to try ranked teams, but don't know others to play it. It should not replace the your Solo Queue 5v5 rating.