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PSA JG?

Sorin Alucard··2 votes·1,227 views

I'll start this by conceding laners can do just as many things to mess up a gank or jungling for a JG

but this post is about those JG's who i believe, need a wake up call on the other end. For everyone's sake

JG can't just farm and farm to win. Even a Yi has to leave JG to do things after a certain point. You can also get farm/ xp from lanes if you get the chance to do so. Lane phase only lasts so long. Laners should let JG tax for gank

JG pathing and choosing who to gank: if you are struggling with this concept you probably shouldn't play jungle in rank. People especially get mad when a person picks JG and can't alter their pathing or farm routes to fit the situation at hand.

The most frustrating thing to watch from a side lane (bot or top) is a jg who farms next to the lane while its pushed up only to leave to mid or the other side

The second most frustrating thing is trying to communicate with a jg and have that person be uncooperative from the start. There are laners who need to chill and not rely on jg to win, but its a JG's job to recognize those laners who are attempting teamwork.

**Even a good JG is a bad JG when they don't convey their plans. **

"smite up/down" "x champ there" "pls help invade" "going x after x camp" and pings should be coming from the JG more so than the other players on the team. Its a good idea for every player to raise their general map awareness, but only the JG is going to have variable map placement every game. A JG is helping themselves when they make this information available. A JG wants the laner to have the information to plan gank (wave placement laners) and also gives laner a chance to tell JG "bad time" or "g2g in x time"

JG is a support position. Supports can carry, but making unilateral decisions to engage solo or not at all isn't a good idea if its clearly in disagreement with the entire team. JG is still secondary support (vision control/assisting carries)

EDIT: Im not implying you should have support passivity and only have a support mindset. A lot of junglers can be aggro and benefit from it. I do believe in relation to laners, you're a secondary support as jg. Doesn't make you less important or mean you need to give laners all the glory or whatever.

Also, NO ONE should unilaterally engage the enemy team. lol

If your only reply is going to be everything laners do wrong, or that you feel its wrong to "Call" a jungler a secondary support, you might just want to move on

TL;DR

Junglers should tell laners when they will gank, and should also tell laners after a request if/when to expect one. Laners should play safer and be responsive to JG's information. LANERS GIVE UP THAT TAX BB

12 Comments

OneMustFall2 votes

Junglers aren't a support position. We're not there to get you fed. We're opportunists who are there to kill other laners. If you get fed, cool. If we get fed, cool. Map control is everyone's job, you need to put down as many wards as the jungler, just in different places. If you don't play jungle, you don't know when a jungler should or should not be ganking. Just because I'm on your side doesn't mean I have the items to gank the fed dude pushing your lane. And if I know the other jungler is moving towards the other side, I'm securing my buffs first.

Marshbouy1 votes

^this

Sorin Alucard1 votes

{quoted}

Junglers aren't a support position. We're not there to get you fed. We're opportunists who are there to kill other laners. If you get fed, cool. If we get fed, cool. Map control is everyone's job, you need to put down as many wards as the jungler, just in different places. If you don't play jungle, you don't know when a jungler should or should not be ganking. Just because I'm on your side doesn't mean I have the items to gank the fed dude pushing your lane. And if I know the other jungler is moving towards the other side, I'm securing my buffs first.

I think you're wrong. and you ignored my comment about that supports can carry (get kills, etc)

No where did I say JG has the job to get the laner fed. But you're not laning, so when you as JG come to MY lane to get tower, you're supporting MY LANE

when you group as JG for team, you're supporting with engage and cc. whoever is fed (jg adc mid etc) can then fight longer

But you usually won't have the most farm, and you never have your own solo objective to push from the start, so you're a support bro

Mentioning all the times you SHOULD be in jg over gank doesn't negate anything I've said about JGs who never gank, who never communicate, who don't ward, and who overall are repeatedly ganking unsuccessfully

I don't think you even grasped that this post isn't for you if you're good at the position. I don't think you considered my concession that laners have responsibilites too

I'll further add that your opinion seemed to imply to me that you're the type of player to just ditch allies. While i agree that not every ally or play is worth a potential sacrifice and that you may not be able to completely save a losing lane, I'd argue that your chances as JG are better for the W if you communicate when you are or why you aren't coming to the lane.

So if you don't got the items, tell em you can't cuz that laner is too fed. But if they're pushed cuz the laner is inviting you to gank not because they're losing, don't dismiss it without saying anything.

OneMustFall2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=35g4GKzz,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-08-31T23:20:15.636+0000)

I think you're wrong. and you ignored my comment about that supports can carry (get kills, etc)

No where did I say JG has the job to get the laner fed. But you're not laning, so when you as JG come to MY lane to get tower, you're supporting MY LANE

when you group as JG for team, you're supporting with engage and cc. whoever is fed (jg adc mid etc) can then fight longer

But you usually won't have the most farm, and you never have your own solo objective to push from the start, so you're a support bro

Mentioning all the times you SHOULD be in jg over gank doesn't negate anything I've said about JGs who never gank, who never communicate, who don't ward, and who overall are repeatedly ganking unsuccessfully

I don't think you even grasped that this post isn't for you if you're good at the position. I don't think you considered my concession that laners have responsibilites too

I'll further add that your opinion seemed to imply to me that you're the type of player to just ditch allies. While i agree that not every ally or play is worth a potential sacrifice and that you may not be able to completely save a losing lane, I'd argue that your chances as JG are better for the W if you communicate when you are or why you aren't coming to the lane.

So if you don't got the items, tell em you can't cuz that laner is too fed. But if they're pushed cuz the laner is inviting you to gank not because they're losing, don't dismiss it without saying anything.

See you have that mindset that it's "your lane". You don't own a lane and I could go into a whole lengthy ramble about why no one owns a lane but rather than that, let me just state that as a jungler they're all my lanes. I'm here to win the game and to do so I don't want any more turrets going down than have to. At the end of the game I frequently have the most gold on my team as Jungler (not farm). I get more gold and XP for killing my farm than you do so don't think that junglers are going to be lacking in gold if they are doing their jobs. People who go damage junglers aren't supporting anyone as they are either primary or secondary damage on the team.

My whole thing with your post is almost like you are expecting junglers to do more than other positions in terms of communication, warding, etc. Because otherwise your blanket statements are applied to everyone. Communication is good. Map vision is good. Pinging is good. But it seems to me you want junglers to just always be on top of what everyone is doing and unless you're in a Skype call, that's just not possible. People aren't ever going to chat every thing that's going on in their lane and I don't have time to chat "Hey gonna go top after xx" because shit changes constantly. I don't know how many times I've seen people ping "On my way" and then never show up because they did something else. The keys are map awareness and paying attention to where your jungler/their jungler is on the map.

Sorin Alucard1 votes

{quoted}

See you have that mindset that it's "your lane". You don't own a lane and I could go into a whole lengthy ramble about why no one owns a lane but rather than that, let me just state that as a jungler they're all my lanes. I'm here to win the game and to do so I don't want any more turrets going down than have to. At the end of the game I frequently have the most gold on my team as Jungler (not farm). I get more gold and XP for killing my farm than you do so don't think that junglers are going to be lacking in gold if they are doing their jobs. People who go damage junglers aren't supporting anyone as they are either primary or secondary damage on the team.

My whole thing with your post is almost like you are expecting junglers to do more than other positions in terms of communication, warding, etc. Because otherwise your blanket statements are applied to everyone. Communication is good. Map vision is good. Pinging is good. But it seems to me you want junglers to just always be on top of what everyone is doing and unless you're in a Skype call, that's just not possible. People aren't ever going to chat every thing that's going on in their lane and I don't have time to chat "Hey gonna go top after xx" because shit changes constantly. I don't know how many times I've seen people ping "On my way" and then never show up because they did something else. The keys are map awareness and paying attention to where your jungler/their jungler is on the map.

Ok. I'll start with what I agree with and make this simple

Yes, the objectives in each lane (towers) are shared by all. yes, its not technically owned by any one position as you need a team to take these objectives Yes. Laners have responibility. Yes that includes pings, not overextending, not harassing the jg to gank especially when they're pushed, warding, and giving tax to junglers

Yes. you might be a good jg and gets lots of gold and kills and CARRY.

You're still a support. You still don't start at a lane and have a singular objective. you move around helping your team. But if youre still arguing with me just because you feel like youre special when being awesome at JG and that its an insult for your position to be considered "support" then idk what else to tell you

Your problems with what laners do was not the point of this. Make your lengthy post about laners if thats what you wish to talk about

If you are already a good jg you're doing your fair share, and you probably aren't even in my elo bro. This post wasn't for you if you're fine at JG position. This isn't a war over who has to do more, but in my elo the most common things i see junglers doing that doesn't work was what was being discussed, along with VERY BASIC things to keep in mind. I think you just want to be right

Less or more responsibility wasn't the point, but junglers who were doing none of what i mentioned and not understanding why they are fighting with other players over their decisions need to start somewhere right? And also I still believe the jg calling out more things they see is indeed what should happen, considering your allies are in lane, and most of the time youre solo at a camp and can look around more while traveling between them. Does this mean your allies should be quiet about what they see too? NO lol

Arguing that you dont have time to type play calls or communicate seems like the wrong choice in my opinion. No you shouldn't be typing paragraphs but an exchange of pings followed by a very short "gank later" or something is much better than you guys trying to mind read each other and hope you pick the right timing.

And pls, next time, pay attention to my points before you reply with the same argument that we all have to do things together to win.

If you have a problem with my tone, well thats on you buddy.

Marshbouy1 votes

Laners should let JG tax for gank

that's about 5% of the population of this game. At least at my elo.

If this post is in response to mine, then you are correct. What people seem to be missing is that for some unknown reason, farming as a jungler to try and get yourself gold is not allowed, and a waste of time. What you should be doing is constantly ganking, invading, and taking objectives, even if none of that is available.

oh wait, now i understand why, ITS BECAUSE THEY ARE IDIOTS.

AnCa1 votes

TBH I rarely sees people just "ask" for a gank. More like repeatedly type in the chat, ping on my character while they are still in lane a dozen times etc. Basically generally being annoying and not focusing in actual game play. Enough about that, I will tell you what makes your jungler want to gank yourr lane.

If you want a jungler to gank your lane more often, most of the time you just have to tell them, what sums is up, what part is warded and general haven't died 1v1 or 2v2 to your lane oppenent(s). Jungler come gank lanes basically means they have to stop doing camps, so the net gain of ganking has to be bigger than doing camps. Jungler avoid ganking a lane that has a deficit most of the time cause the risk of it going bad is higher, its not because they hate your or something. So yes your jungler knows that Yasuo or Darius killed you and is pushing you into the tower, and he made the conscious decision of avoiding ganking there.

Also, if a gank went sour, it is likely the jungler won't come back for the same reason. On the other hand, if they get a flash/sums but the enemy got away, they might come back very soon, so manupilate the wave accordingly.

Depends on the champion your jungler and the oppenent jungler is playing the jungle clear route might be more restrictive, espeically on the first clear. And that dictate the 2nd and 3rd clear, sometimes with almost no effect, but sometimes it basically locks them in with no other option. This becomes more evidential when playing against Shyvana, Shaco or Lee Sin. So altering path is not entirely possible sometimes, its more about ganking when oppertunity arrise. So altering pathing is again risk and reward based.

Supportive type of jungling is............ I don't want to explain why people ain't playing that style anymore, you can figure it out just by looking at the winrate of champions. Vision control is everyone's reponsibility, and I highly encourage junglers to get pink ward asap. But he can only really get one, and now days jungler usually don't get sightstone or white smite.

Sorin Alucard1 votes

{quoted}

TBH I rarely sees people just "ask" for a gank. More like repeatedly type in the chat, ping on my character while they are still in lane a dozen times etc. Basically generally being annoying and not focusing in actual game play. Enough about that, I will tell you what makes your jungler want to gank yourr lane.

If you want a jungler to gank your lane more often, most of the time you just have to tell them, what sums is up, what part is warded and general haven't died 1v1 or 2v2 to your lane oppenent(s). Jungler come gank lanes basically means they have to stop doing camps, so the net gain of ganking has to be bigger than doing camps. Jungler avoid ganking a lane that has a deficit most of the time cause the risk of it going bad is higher, its not because they hate your or something. So yes your jungler knows that Yasuo or Darius killed you and is pushing you into the tower, and he made the conscious decision of avoiding ganking there.

Also, if a gank went sour, it is likely the jungler won't come back for the same reason. On the other hand, if they get a flash/sums but the enemy got away, they might come back very soon, so manupilate the wave accordingly.

Depends on the champion your jungler and the oppenent jungler is playing the jungle clear route might be more restrictive, espeically on the first clear. And that dictate the 2nd and 3rd clear, sometimes with almost no effect, but sometimes it basically locks them in with no other option. This becomes more evidential when playing against Shyvana, Shaco or Lee Sin. So altering path is not entirely possible sometimes, its more about ganking when oppertunity arrise. So altering pathing is again risk and reward based.

Supportive type of jungling is............ I don't want to explain why people ain't playing that style anymore, you can figure it out just by looking at the winrate of champions. Vision control is everyone's reponsibility, and I highly encourage junglers to get pink ward asap. But he can only really get one, and now days jungler usually don't get sightstone or white smite.

I'm arguing more of the definition of the role when i say "support" rather than trying to encourage a purely supportive playstyle.

but ty for the contribution

Yes vision is everyone's responsibility.

I also think its a good idea to let your Jg know as a laner "take the kill if you can"

sry about shitty laners only pinging and being annoying.

Paroe1 votes

As a yi, i get flamed at whenever i Q the casters after a gank (failed or no), and then come mid game everyone steals my jungle like its their lane.

Its not a fun feeling when youre a carry jungler and not a support jungle. theres worlds of difference between a nautlius jungle and an udyr jungle. the tone of the playstyle is just different.

Sorin Alucard1 votes

{quoted}

As a yi, i get flamed at whenever i Q the casters after a gank (failed or no), and then come mid game everyone steals my jungle like its their lane.

Its not a fun feeling when youre a carry jungler and not a support jungle. theres worlds of difference between a nautlius jungle and an udyr jungle. the tone of the playstyle is just different.

I believe laners should give up that tax. Jg is your teammate and taking time to come away from sure fire farm to attempt higher reward, so you need to compensate them for their time.

Different playstyles of jg exist yes, but once again i'm not implying they should all be the same playstyle, just basic things all junglers should keep in mind if they aren't doing it.

i'm trying to encourage better cooperation overall

Dale Wardark1 votes

I play Sejuani, who I build tank, because my team wanted a CC heavy, tank Jungler, but when I practice with her in normals, I sometimes get yelled at for "taking" kills. A tank can't get tanky without having gold to build tank items. Junglers are there to try to put pressure in a lane that needs it, disable an enemy lane, and then, in the case of tanks in late-game, soak up damage so the ADC or MIdlaner can get kills. Assassin junglers, like Shaco and Rengar, are there literally to kill enemy squishies, meaning getting kills is in their nature. And referring to a jungler as a "support" to a laner is just rude. You're relegating both supports AND junglers to a lesser position than a laner, which is simply not the case.

Additionally, you may feel as if you're getting dominated in lane because you're constantly near your tower, but I gurantee, a good jungler worth his or her salt will be keeping an eye on the health of the tower, your health, and the enemy laner's kills. Most will intervene, given the chance, to shut down an enemy laner. If you're constantly asking for ganks and you're pushed up to the enemy tower, no jungler will gank unless the enemy is already low. I've made the mistake of diving an enemy who's under tower. Even with two people, it's incredibly dangerous and stupid.

Sorin Alucard1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dale Wardark,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=35g4GKzz,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-09-01T01:29:28.566+0000)

I play Sejuani, who I build tank, because my team wanted a CC heavy, tank Jungler, but when I practice with her in normals, I sometimes get yelled at for "taking" kills. A tank can't get tanky without having gold to build tank items. Junglers are there to try to put pressure in a lane that needs it, disable an enemy lane, and then, in the case of tanks in late-game, soak up damage so the ADC or MIdlaner can get kills. Assassin junglers, like Shaco and Rengar, are there literally to kill enemy squishies, meaning getting kills is in their nature. And referring to a jungler as a "support" to a laner is just rude. You're relegating both supports AND junglers to a lesser position than a laner, which is simply not the case.

Additionally, you may feel as if you're getting dominated in lane because you're constantly near your tower, but I gurantee, a good jungler worth his or her salt will be keeping an eye on the health of the tower, your health, and the enemy laner's kills. Most will intervene, given the chance, to shut down an enemy laner. If you're constantly asking for ganks and you're pushed up to the enemy tower, no jungler will gank unless the enemy is already low. I've made the mistake of diving an enemy who's under tower. Even with two people, it's incredibly dangerous and stupid.

Lol your feelings about it being called secondary support don't really concern me tbh. I play jungle too, and carry or not carry, tank or dmg, it doesn't move me to feel less important than my laners by calling my position support. Its a team, all positions on the team are important. Just because i'm actually farming camps doesn't make me less of a support role when i go to ward or gank.

Talking about diff jg playstyles doesn't negate the basic need for cooperation, communication, etc. Ganks and taking objectives are more successful with more teamwork right?

my original post neither assumed lane was being lost or won, merely that ganks are more successful with communication. Also, I was pointing out that if a JG says "i can't go there" its a whole hell of a lot better than a laner letting a lane push, requesting gank, jg comes by, comes close, leaves and doesn't say a word or ping. If you believe laners should also be doing their share, hell yeah i agree.

This is aimed at clueless junglers, and for all players who would like to see more "yes"/"no"s from teammates than "why the f did you do that"

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